Viewing 40 posts - 1 through 40 (of 58 total)
  • e-scooters – 10th May
  • ayjaydoubleyou
    Full Member

    Review on the rules today apparently. Only found out about it via a facebook ad for escooters.

    Ruling will apply to scooters that meet the below, so basically the equivalent of the hire scheme ones.

    Have an electric motor with a maximum continuous power rating of 500W
    Not have pedals
    Be designed to carry only one person
    Have a maximum speed of 15.5mph
    Weigh no more than 55kg (including the battery)
    Have two wheels aligned in the direction of travel
    Be steered using handlebars mechanically linked to one wheel
    Have a hand-operated speed control
    Have a power control that defaults to the ‘off’ position

    My guess is they will legalise it but keep it quiet, basically removes the illegality of what people were doing anyway, but without advertising the fact.

    joebristol
    Full Member

    I like using the Voi scooters in Bristol – other then them being a bit shonky in terms of throttle control. Most of the Voi ones are ridden sensibly – with a few people just going nuts on them and ignoring the rules. That’s said the private e-scooters seem to have a higher proportion of nutcases/ idiots on them.

    Voi you have to put in your driving licence details and link a card to it for payment so it feels like there could be some comeback if you act like a tw*t on one.

    Feel like the private ones haven’t got that comeback as such so it could be a free for all. Although I guess no different to riding a bike on the road / like an idiot over pavements and through parks in reality.

    argee
    Full Member

    They’re so widespread and any prohibition isn’t even attempted to be enforced these days, you see them everywhere these days, ridden by children to school, to middle aged folk going into town, they’re annoying at times, but i find it hard to get upset about them being used as they’re usually just folk getting from A to B with minimal fuss.

    tthew
    Full Member

    Interesting that the specifications listed above don’t include the necessity to be stood up and not seated, so they’re including higher power and not pedal assist e-bikes too.

    zilog6128
    Full Member

    They’re so widespread and any prohibition isn’t even attempted to be enforced these days

    that’s not true at least where I am. Probably only scratches the surface, but there are regular crackdowns, confiscations, fines/prosecutions (under motoring offences). Most of the accidents/antisocial behaviour (and fires from shitty quality batteries which is apparently not uncommon!!) seems to be from the private ones not hire schemes so proper legislation is good IMO… but worthless without proper enforcement also.

    Singletrack MegaSack 2021 - Bloopers

    Singletrack MegaSack 2021 - Bloopers
    Singletrack Video Archive: Singletrack MegaSack 2021 - Bloopers
    tomhoward
    Full Member

    so they’re including higher power and not pedal assist e-bikes too.

    Max speed of 15.5mph make that irrelevant, plus a lot of the bigger ones are north of 55kg.

    Essentially it seems to remove the need for regular, currently legal, ebikes to be pedal assisted.

    zippykona
    Full Member

    I would need one of these.
    Whoo makes them?

    winston
    Free Member

    Doesn’t cover e-skateboards and Onewheels

    I test rode a few of these at the fully charged show last week Up to 30mph – loads of fun, way funner than a scooter and with a  range of 20 miles, very practical for commuting etc. Plus they can be slipped under a desk.

    But at around 2k they are a big investment and you wouldn’t want them confiscated……

    julians
    Free Member

    its about time they set a framework for the legal use of privately owned e scooters, they’d be such a benefit to a lot of people.

    They’re already legal in many european countries

    Olly
    Free Member

    its a good start.

    Ive got no interest in them myself, and tbh they seem pretty dangerous for the riders, but anything that facilitates getting people out of 2T boxes for the suburban journeys gets my vote, and the more the streets are legally clogged up with these things (as well as bikes of all shapes and sizes) the more normalised it becomes and the more people see it as a good option and leave their cars at home.

    I would need one of these.
    Whoo makes them?

    Thats pretty cool, much less likely to go over the bars if you hit a speed bump. If it was better designed you could have some not insignificant storage between your feet too, Certainly enough for a pannier bag, or a bit of shopping. Thats what most of this stuff is missing in my view, a bit of cargo space.

    I could design somthing like that within those new rules…..

    peekay
    Full Member

    Does anyone have links to the legislation change?

    zippykona
    Full Member

    Did they say if they have to go on the road or are they ok on cycle paths?

    Olly
    Free Member

    Have an electric motor with a maximum continuous power rating of 500W
    Have a maximum speed of 15.5mph

    though, where are they proposing these things are used. that doesnt seem like enough poke/top speed to ride on the road really, but too much for the pavements?

    I kinda think there should be a speed limit on cycle paths.
    Not because people go to fast, but to justify people using the road when they want to go a bit quicker than an amble, and reduce the “get on the cycle path”.

    peekay
    Full Member

    Can’t see anything online about a proposed review today, other than a few articles from 2 weeks ago saying that Grant Shapps hinting that legislation could be included in today’s Queen’s Speech. Such as this BBC link but nothing much announced since

    As recently as yesterday there was an article on the BBC news website about them, and no mention of expected legislative changes

    BBC News Petition Article

    Edit- and it looks to have not been included in today’s Queen’s (son’s) Speech. So I reckon that it was just a bit of marketing by the source of OP’s post targeted to get people to buy an escooter in early anticipation of a law change.

    sobriety
    Free Member

    I was overtaken by one going up a big hill near me on my way home a couple of days ago – it was either hire or fitted the requirements outlined above, as it wasn’t over 15mph.

    It looked lethal, every pothole avoidance was a wobble/swerve into the traffic from the cycle lane, forcing drivers to slam on so they didn’t plough into them.

    julians
    Free Member

    It looked lethal, every pothole avoidance was a wobble/swerve into the traffic from the cycle lane, forcing drivers to slam on so they didn’t plough into them.

    they need to learn the escooter bunny hop

    sobriety
    Free Member

    they need to learn the escooter bunny hop

    Given the level of weeble they had on, that’d result in me having to bunnyhop them!

    slowol
    Full Member

    To allow more power than an ebike seems illogical. I would expect the same max power as an ebike but possibly a slightly lower top speed. I think some of the hire ones are set at 12.5 mph.
    Ebikes are generally much safer, better brakes, better control, etc. Personally from the way I’ve seem most of them used explicitly not allowing them and enforcing more generally seems sensible, and I know others don’t agree.
    I think that the trials have shown that they displace mainly walking journeys so the effect of traffic volumes is likely low.
    If they are made legal then I guess it would be road and cycle path use only.
    Yes they are significantly more dangerous than a bike hence my reasoning that I see no reason to lift the ban.

    Greybeard
    Full Member

    Essentially it seems to remove the need for regular, currently legal, ebikes to be pedal assisted.

    That was my thought. Ebikes can go faster than 15.5mph if pedalled, though. Also seems odd that the specification doesn’t mention brakes.

    ayjaydoubleyou
    Full Member

    To allow more power than an ebike seems illogical. I would expect the same max power as an ebike but possibly a slightly lower top speed. I think some of the hire ones are set at 12.5 mph.
    Ebikes are generally much safer, better brakes, better control, etc. Personally from the way I’ve seem most of them used explicitly not allowing them and enforcing more generally seems sensible, and I know others don’t agree.
    I think that the trials have shown that they displace mainly walking journeys so the effect of traffic volumes is likely low.
    If they are made legal then I guess it would be road and cycle path use only.
    Yes they are significantly more dangerous than a bike hence my reasoning that I see no reason to lift the ban.

    if the top speed is capped as the same as an ebike then how much effect does the added power have? on an ebike, the rider adds power, I imagine even the most unfit incompetent rider could manage a few second bust of a couple of hundred watts to get up to speed.

    Are the trials where walking journeys were replaced based on public hire in city centres? I could imagine private hire ones being different. especially folding ones where someone might be doing scooter-train-scooter rather than a car for example.

    Merely observing those local to me, my unscientific observation is they are replacing poorly maintained and even more poorly ridden BSOs for the most part. (part of that will be the current illegal riding demographic).

    Maybe it isnt 1 less car, but its one less “bloody cyclist” wobbling, lightless red light jumpers that gives us “proper” cyclists a bad name.

    The above said slightly in jest.

    flannol
    Free Member

    I think that the trials have shown that they displace mainly walking journeys so the effect of traffic volumes is likely low.

    I don’t believe this at all

    I live in a medium sized town (letchworth gc) and there are an awful lot of 0.5-3mile journeys – including by myself – made by car.

    Slow start to a modal shift, hopefully. Maybe by 20 years time? Hopefully…

    molgrips
    Full Member

    I think that the trials have shown that they displace mainly walking journeys so the effect of traffic volumes is likely low.

    Maybe now, from people who already own cars and have driving licenses. But it might delay young people from becoming drivers and buying cars?

    seosamh77
    Free Member

    slowol
    Full Member
    To allow more power than an ebike seems illogical. I would expect the same max power as an ebike but possibly a slightly lower top speed. I think some of the hire ones are set at 12.5 mph.

    The power level is a bit of a misnomer tbh, most ebikes hit a lot more than 250w. some hitting up to 700w peak and no doubt beyond. The 250w continuous rating is really just an arbitrary rating, it’s not a limit. What it means is that the motor can run at 250w without heating up. It’s more a safety thing than anything else I think, or at least that’s how it was supposed to be intended, but it’s not how most people read it. A motor will go as fast as the volts and amps you put through it till it burns out.

    piemonster
    Full Member

    I wonder how this is going down on “motorist” social media

    seosamh77
    Free Member

    molgrips
    Full Member
    I think that the trials have shown that they displace mainly walking journeys so the effect of traffic volumes is likely low.

    Maybe now, from people who already own cars and have driving licenses. But it might delay young people from becoming drivers and buying cars?

    Yeah these things are unlikely to entice existing car users out of their cars, if there is going to be a change, it’s a generational change you are looking at.

    joebristol
    Full Member

    Tbh I’ve used they Voi scooters to avoid the car to the pub (had to get Uber home) or into the centre of Bristol on a night out. Also used it to go to work a few times.

    I think they could get a lot of bigger traffic off the road for commuting purposes for people with shorter commutes. End to end in Bristol it was quicker than driving in and parking somewhere free outside the centre and walking in. Also half the time the bus takes to get into town and you aren’t tied to bus timetables.

    If there’s some way to get them used mostly sensibly it makes a lot of sense. Would be better if they did 20mph so you feel less of a slow target to car drivers though.

    kerley
    Free Member

    I think that the trials have shown that they displace mainly walking journeys so the effect of traffic volumes is likely low.

    A trial is just that. I don’t live in a town that had a trial so had no option to trial one even if I wanted to.
    I would never hire one today but if they were made legal would consider buying one and instead of driving down to shop (2 miles each way) I would use my eScooter. Instead of driving to work I would get the bus and then scoot the final 3 miles into work.

    Yes I could do that on a bike but I already ride my bike enough for solely pleasure activity.

    greyspoke
    Free Member

    The power level is a bit of a misnomer tbh, most ebikes hit a lot more than 250w. some hitting up to 700w peak and no doubt beyond. The 250w continuous rating is really just an arbitrary rating, it’s not a limit. What it means is that the motor can run at 250w without heating up. It’s more a safety thing than anything else I think, or at least that’s how it was supposed to be intended, but it’s not how most people read it. A motor will go as fast as the volts and amps you put through it till it burns out.

    I was intrigued by your comment @seosamh77, and it caused me to look into this in somewhat pointless depth (so apologies peeps you are getting the double whammy of my legal and technical geekery here). The Electrically Assisted Pedal Cycles (Amendment) Regulations 2015 define “maximum continuous power” with reference to Regulation (EU) No 168/2013, which in turn refers to “Regulation No 85 of the Economic Commission for Europe of the United Nations (UN/ECE) — Uniform provisions concerning the approval of internal combustion engines or electric drive trains intended for the propulsion of motor vehicles of categories M and N with regard to the measurement of net power and the maximum 30 minutes power of electric drive trains” (Link to the version in the OJ). This specifies the following test for continuous power:

    5.3.2.
    Determination of the maximum 30 minutes power
    5.3.2.1.
    The motor and its entire equipment assembly must be conditioned at a temperature of 25 °C ± 5 °C for a minimum of four hours.
    5.3.2.2.
    The electric drive train shall run at the bench at a power which is the best estimate of the manufacturer for the maximum 30 minutes power. The speed must be in a speed range, which the net power is greater than 90 % of the maximum power as measured in paragraph 5.3.1. This speed shall be recommended by the manufacturer.
    5.3.2.3.
    Speed and power shall be recorded. The power must be in a range of ± 5 % of the power value at the start of the test. The maximum 30 minutes power is the average of the power within the 30 minutes period.

    The UN/ECE Regulations are all about ensuring power is at least the manufacturers quoted figure, and heat dissipation (or lack of it) could be what limits the power thus measured, and thus what manufacturers can state that to be. But the EAPC Regs just refer to the testing method, not the whole thing, and are not interested in ensuring the quoted power is available, but in ensuring that the achievable power is below a maximum. As you can see, this method is unsuitable for doing that without some heavy interpretation (for example ignoring the manufacturers best estimate bit and running it on full power). In fact the definition of “net power” also in the UNECE Regulation appears more appropriate.

    This is bizarre and I feel I must be missing something, I can’t see how that method of measurement can be useful, or is in practice used.

    Greybeard
    Full Member

    @greystoke, the actual definition of maximum 30 minutes power is in paragraph 2.4 – I think it’s slightly more informative than the testing method you’ve quoted. The whole of that Regulation reads as if it’s been translated from another language by somebody who had no idea what it was about. It’s clearly being used outside its original scope, being for motor vehicles in classes M and N:
    <ul class=”i8Z77e”>
    <li class=”TrT0Xe”>

    Category M: used for the carriage of passengers. Category M1: no more than eight seats in addition to the driver seat (mainly, cars) …

    <li class=”TrT0Xe”>

    Category N: used for the carriage of goods (trucks): Category N1: having a maximum mass not exceeding 3.5 tonnes (7,700 lb)

    timba
    Free Member

    Current law (linky)
    They are lawful in some trials, but only if they’re rented under that scheme
    If they were mentioned in the Queen’s Speech then that’s usually proposed legislation rather than a change today

    CountZero
    Full Member

    if the top speed is capped as the same as an ebike then how much effect does the added power have?

    The bigger a battery and higher power motor(s), with a speed cap means the range gets extended. There’s an amazing escooter called a Wolf King. It’s full suspension, with inverted front forks and a coil-over shock on the rear, with several inches of travel, hydraulic discs at each end with ABS on the more expensive model, twin multi-LED headlights, brake and turn indicator lights,and weighs around 115 lb. It’ll top out at around 100kph!
    However, if the speed is kept to a reasonable level like 15-20mph, which is what I’d be happy with, it’ll get around 75 miles out of a single charge, which is remarkable.

    Kaabo Wolf King Electric Scooter

    Regarding the scooters in Bristol and Bath, I’ve been in both cities at night recently for gigs, and one thing I did wonder, how are they charged? They just get parked up and left, often in little groups, but there doesn’t seem to be any means of charging them, although obviously they must get charged.

    The other thing I really noticed, was the difference between the scooter riders and all of the cyclists I saw – all of the scooters had lights on, whereas not a single bike, out of the dozen or so I saw each evening in Bristol, had any lights at all. And frequently the riders all had dark clothing on.

    Any cyclists who want to criticise scooter riders should look to themselves for stupid, irresponsible behaviour before pointing to other road users.

    fossy
    Full Member

    Given the state of our roads, these will keep A&E busy, and dentists. Great idea, but our infrastructure is crap.

    seosamh77
    Free Member

    Intersting Grey(s), I have to ask though, does that all agree with my assessment? (My legalese ain’t great! :lol:) I just know that most electric bikes these days come with battery packs that are capable for hitting somewhere in the region of 540w as most are around 15amps x 36v, which will run for 1 hour at 540w. (belting most ebikes about for an hour at full power can and will run down the battery to zero in that hour, so it’s obvious it is possible for most bikes to run at peak for the hour.)

    Makes a bit of a mockery of the whole 250w thing. I think the industry knows this, that’s why you don’t really see those numbers advertised and instead they all prefer to show the torque in nm. and just stick to watt hours for the battery

    My argument would be what’s to stop manufacturers just labelling a motor capable of passing say a 500w continuous as a 250w motor? This will easily pass the 250w continuous test. I’m willing to bet most motors in ebikes can surpass the 250w test despite being labeled as 250w continuous.

    Just seems to me the whole 250w continuous thing is a bit of a silly designation, unless it is intended as a minimum safety requirement, which is where it would make sense to me..

    If you really want to limit the speed and power of ebikes you do this via mph/kph limits and through voltage and amp limits. Those are the numbers that people should focus on. We know there’s a speed limit of 15.5mph, and I think 36v’s is a limit in legislation, i’m sure I’ve seen that somewhere, but I’ve never noticed an amp limit? Anyone ever seen that? I’ve always wondered what’s stop them sticking in a 36v 30amp battery? Which would give a peak power of 1080w. (more than likely cause all the motors are only really rated to 5/6/700 continuous would be my guess.)

    seosamh77
    Free Member

    As an aside volts are also variable in a battery, a 36v battery will actually charge up to about 41v and drain down to about 32v over a cycle(if I remember right, I might be slightly out there), so the power delivered is variable.

    ie, so the peak power a 36v x 15a battery actually can deliver to a motor varies from 615 watts to 480 watts over a cycle.

    If 250w was an actual limit, we wouldn’t really see or need batteries bigger than 36v x 6/7/8 amps.

    chomp
    Free Member

    Regarding charging, the hire ones in Cheltenham (Zwings) have people that go around and swap the batteries out. Not sure how efficient a process that is, as I don’t think they have any way of letting the company know when they’re low and need changing.

    maybe the next generation will to be able to self drive back to a charging station . . .

    Flaperon
    Full Member

    About time. It’s a piss-take that trundling along a quiet cycle path on an e-scooter at the moment attracts a higher punishment than ploughing through a pedestrian in your car.

    If insurance is an issue then just stick an additional tax on new purchases which contributes to something like the uninsured drivers fund. But ultimately I’d rather be run over by an e-scooter without insurance than a Tesla.

    kilo
    Full Member

    Any cyclists who want to criticise scooter riders should look to themselves for stupid, irresponsible behaviour before pointing to other road users.

    Yep looked at myself and no issues present so I’ll crack on, scooter riders act like dicks in London, the scooters are unsuitable for the roads and a menace on pavements. Carrying young kids on the school run also seems to be a thing now.
    As a cyclist they are just another pointless hazard on the road, up there with chipped ebike deliveroo riders. I’d be quite happy if they were all crushed, more so as London has good public transportation and various bike hire schemes.

    Jakester
    Free Member

    peekay
    Full Member
    Does anyone have links to the legislation change?

    I don’t think there is a draft bill as yet, but this is a summary of proposals:

    https://lordslibrary.parliament.uk/queens-speech-2022-transport/#heading-12

    stevextc
    Free Member

    They’re so widespread and any prohibition isn’t even attempted to be enforced these days

    zilog

    that’s not true at least where I am. Probably only scratches the surface, but there are regular crackdowns, confiscations, fines/prosecutions (under motoring offences).

    Same here, or at least the (now previous since the local elections) council have been very vocal about “prosecuting to the maximum extent of the law” or similar words.
    I’m not sure they have actually DONE anything as we no longer have a police station

    Given the previous (as of local elections) council were always pushing anything to knock down family homes to build commuter hovels this always seemed at odds .. though I guess it reinforces their building skyscrapers in the centre policy ??

    jameso
    Full Member

    Essentially it seems to remove the need for regular, currently legal, ebikes to be pedal assisted.

    To be a current EPAC class ie same use legality as a bike it has to be pedal assisted, if it has a saddle it can’t get e-scooter type approval. Type approval regs take ages to revise so (unf) nothing’s happening anytime soon re what is or isn’t an e-scooter/bike etc.

    But the EAPC Regs just refer to the testing method, not the whole thing, and are not interested in ensuring the quoted power is available, but in ensuring that the achievable power is below a maximum.

    Correct, the EN test for e-bikes is only to establish the power level that fits within that type/class. Whether it’s 150W or 250W isn’t the Q, it’s just establishing it doesn’t run at 600W.

    My argument would be what’s to stop manufacturers just labelling a motor capable of passing say a 500w continuous as a 250w motor? This will easily pass the 250w continuous test. I’m willing to bet most motors in ebikes can surpass the 250w test despite being labeled as 250w continuous.

    If it runs at 500W on the maximum continuous rated power test, the 250W output isn’t the ‘max’. So the EN tests for e-bikes would stop them. Motors can peak well over 250W but the ‘max continuous rated power’ test or labelling isn’t the same as peak output. Common that 350W 48V motors are reduced to 250W via a 36V rated system.

    if the top speed is capped as the same as an ebike then how much effect does the added power have?

    Means they don’t stall going up a 1 in 6. Motor torque is highest at lowest revs so with more power a given torque can be had at a higher speed or higher torque at a low speed.

Viewing 40 posts - 1 through 40 (of 58 total)

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

Thanks for popping by - why not stay a while?IT'S FREE

Sign up as a Singletrack Member and you can leave comments on stories, use the classified ads, and post in our forums, do quizzes and more.

Join us, join in, it’s free, and fun.