E Bikes – Which motor system for reliability?

The sad fact is, I just don’t think that e-bike systems are up to being refularly ridden in typical (and maybe this winter was atypical…) British winter weather

5.5 years, ridden in all conditions. Can tell it’s due a service (motor bearing feels dry – got it booked in with the company above) but never had an issue

As I said, you might get lucky… I don’t know a single MTB ebike owner who has not had some sort of motor issue, across all brands/makes.

P.s. – that picture, you’ve not even tried to get it dirty… 😉

The sad fact is, I just don’t think that e-bike systems are up to being refularly ridden in typical (and maybe this winter was atypical…) British winter weather

Ever has it been thus with MTB equipment in the UK.

Years ago, I think it was a Manitou product development manager that said that if you designed ‘it’ to run underwater at the beach then it might survive UK riding conditions.

I have a Santa Cruz Heckler.

It has no attention at all paid with regard to waterproofing or water resistance. All the power jacks and communications connections in the frame are push fit and they’re not sealed or shielded or protected in any way. Wet riding is clearly not a consideration.

Of course, they’re all now slathered in dielectric grease and I’m working on a nitrile seal for the battery compartment. Nowt I can do about the crank axle seals on the Shimano EP8 though!

As an idle onlooker without an ebike or a wish for an ebike it’s interesting watching this develop.

Showing my ignorance……

If you started to view the motor as just another consumable that will wear out in time (hopefully a long time) can a consumer now buy one off the shelf and fit it yourself like you could a chainset or swing arm bearings. And what would it cost if that is possible?

If motors are basically standardised parts (just expensive ones in comparison to most on a mtb) they would scare me less than propriety battery mounts and electrical connections.

And is there a niche in the market for a UK manufacturer like Bird to ‘UKify’ the ebike with different uprated electrics better suited to our conditions than dry arid deserts.

From my brief research, replacement motors / batteries do seem to be available for some time, however, your often looking at £900ish for a battery and £900+ish for a motor – prices seem to vary. Not a small chunk of change to keep your 2 year old bike on the trails.

I’m assuming after a good few years they’ll be superseded by newer tech / mounting standards and more difficult to get hold of.

An interesting comment came up a few days ago on the Specialized Levo/Kenevo FB page; an American saying he’s not ridden for a while as all the trails are closed because of the rain.

The quote his response when asked about “closed trails”:

• It preserves the trail, riding on wet trails leaves ruts and then going around causes trail widening.  The rocky stuff would also be quite treacherous in the rain as well.

I’m on the 3rd motor and 2nd battery, battery extender, TCU and wiring.

Bike gets ridden hard in all conditions – based in the Tweed Valley and done 2,500 miles in 18 months.

When/If any of it breaks once the warranty ends, any replacement I buy automatically gets a 2 year warranty.

Doesn’t one of the manufacturers only let you get peak power if you hit 100rpm now?

That’s the Bosch SX lightweight motor.  Shimano motor (Orbea make most of it on the Rise, but I think it’s actually true of all of them,) gives peak power in the 75-95 cadence range.  Those are the cadences where you’d normally get most power out of a human rider, so they should feel more natural to ride.  It does puzzle me the number of riders who seem to climb steep stuff at a low cadence half way down the block by just bashing something like a Bosch full power motor into Boost.   No wonder e bikes have a rep for eating drivetrain.

Bosch/Shimano will contribute to replacement costs up to 5yrs.

That sounds both fair and justifiable (and matches my experience).  My Shimano motor (torque sensor failure) was replaced for free after c2.5 years.

Ideally they’d be repairable, but when I looked at the Shimano the way the axle is attached/fitted, the torque sensor installed and calibrated I can see why they don’t.  Then consider the manufacturing cost – £900, less VAT, less dealer profit, less Shimano/distributor profit – it’s probably £300.  So you start to see why they don’t consider them an economic repair (even if it seems mad to landfill)

I’m assuming after a good few years they’ll be superseded by newer tech / mounting standards and more difficult to get hold of.

I’m not sure how much innovation there is to be had on motors really.  Stuff like seals might be upgraded, and a few internal parts, maybe they’ll find some ways to shave a little weight, but I’m pretty sure the current Shimano motors mount exactly the same as the first generation.   Theres a limit to how much power you want – you’re only using the max torque in ‘boost’ type settings (My Rise is limited to 60 anyway).  And the differences between the 800 and 801 are pretty marginal.

Batteries is where will likely see more change over time – the new rise has new cells with higher energy density. So more power for same size and weight.  But once you’ve got to ‘as much as any riders going to want to ride in a day’ fitted batteries will get smaller and lighter.

On a YT video I saw recently on motor reliability and seals, etc, it was interesting that he pointed out that you should enclose/wrap your motor with a plastic bag or similar if transporting it on a rear bike rack as the pressures attained when driving will harm the motor, like pressure washing.

If you started to view the motor as just another consumable that will wear out in time (hopefully a long time) can a consumer now buy one off the shelf and fit it yourself like you could a chainset or swing arm bearings. And what would it cost if that is possible?

I was browsing eBay a while back and there were new Brose motors starting at about £800, from Germany I think. That said, the eBike motor repair guys mentioned already and featured in those EMBN videos, are capable of rebuilding Brose and Bosch motors. The Brose ones suffer from having inadequate sealing, so water can get into the crank bearings which then corrode and stop working – they’re basically the equivalent of bottom bracket bearings, but much harder to access. Where it gets expensive is if you also damage the crank bearing surfaces at which point you’re looking at an additional £150.

Just spotted there that the ebike motor centre sells new Brose motors for £885, though no idea which bikes those might fit or how software variations play out  – erm, later Levos I think and they transfer the software data from the old motor.

Anyway, realistically, the only people who know the definite stats on motor failure and warranty replacements are the brands and their suppliers I guess and they’re hardly going to share that info with the public. A mate who works in the industry figured that Spesh in particular, had been through a huge number of motors, but who knows.

I seem to be the proud foster owner of a 2017 Levo which managed about 1600km before needing a motor rebuild and seal upgrade. The battery also stopped working twice. I opened it up carefully, dried the internals and sealed up the control panel, since when it’s been fine, though I tend not to ride it much and never in proper wet conditions, That said, I’m sure it had significant abuse before it ended up with me.

TLDR: motors cost getting on for £1K if you can find them, but there are people who can repair the things at a significantly lower cost to you and the environment.

It was interesting that the eeb repair bloke chatting with Steve Jones reckoned the most-reliable motor yet was an early Bosch model, because it just had bigger bearings & stuff.

He reckoned durability had been compromised by the pressure to get lighter weight products to market.

Yeah people keep saying Bosch are repairable, but I don’t think the newer Bosch Smart System ones are.
There is no price on their website:

Repair & Overhaul Service (New)

To add to the totally anecdotal information here, my Rise (Shimano EP8rs) has just under 3,000 miles under its belt, and doesn’t seem to have missed a beat (*touches every piece of wood he can see).

It doesnt get hosed though, I just let it somewhat dry, dust of clumps of dirt and then cleaned with wipe off cleaner and microfiber cloths (then lubed etc etc). I’m also very cautious about riding it in the usual Scottish slop (that’s what the hardtail is for), so maybe there is some truth in Ebikes generally just not being designed for UK weather / riding styles?

From my brief research, replacement motors / batteries do seem to be available for some time, however, your often looking at £900ish for a battery and £900+ish for a motor – prices seem to vary. Not a small chunk of change to keep your 2 year old bike on the trails.

Interesting. That’s roughly what I’d expect.

So those considering buying a new one – say £5K’s worth. What would you expect to get for it at 5 years old? You’d have to factor in a massively higher depreciation than a normal bike. If a £5K eMTB is effectively a £3K mtb with £2Ks worth of motor and battery strapped to it after 5 years I’d suggest it’s worth less than the 5 year old £3K mtb is now worth simply because of the jeopardy it carries.

I’ve an eBullit cargo bike with Shimano EP8 motor. It’s been in storage for over 18 months now, but had covered over 6,000km in the 18 months before that without issue. Used for lugging tools around and general commuting in all weathers….. +30°C – -10°C with winter slush and snow.

Have seen some eBullits with over 17,000km on them.

Lasted 700km (4 months) before dying…….

The sad fact is, I just don’t think that e-bike systems are up to being refularly ridden in typical (and maybe this winter was atypical…) British winter weather.

700km in four months….?!? That sucks.

Personally I really don’t see the need for an e-mtb. A motor removes the purity of cycling and I say that as someone who has an ebike.

the purity of cycling

Whatever that is.

Horses for courses re eMTB. Mine is for a very specific purpose which is smashing out lunchtime hour laps: I go further and get more descents in. Everybody has their own reason. The point is they are sold as MTBs, they should stand up to the same conditions, as regular MTBs. bar the need to skip the hosepipe and jet wash,  which I think is fair enough.

But yeah, pretty disappointed with 4 months out of a motor. I’ll be getting busy with the heat-shrink and gorilla-tape when I get it back.

The quote his response when asked about “closed trails”:

It preserves the trail, riding on wet trails leaves ruts and then going around causes trail widening.  The rocky stuff would also be quite treacherous in the rain as well.

I’ve heard this before in the US. It clearly can’t apply everywhere. (E.g. NW Pacific,)  I suspect it’s more in the drier/weather reliable regions where rain is a couple of days a month and trails are not made as well for that reason. Or perhaps an ecologically sensitive area.

imagine that though, booking a day off work for an epic trail ride and you choose the one day it rains that month 😂

IMBA have that kind of sensibility to wet trails too, I think.

The point above about Bosch having motors / spares available for 7 yrs is a bit worrying. My current mtb is currently 12yrs old and still working fine. I’m not dropping £5k plus on a bike that only is useable for <7 years !

As long as the subsequent ‘upgraded’ motors use the same bolt pattern then shouldn’t it be a simple case and replace with the new motor. 7 years can be a long time and im not sure they can be compared to the lifespan of any other engine type. A replacement after 7 years keeps you on the go, and the concept of replacing electrical motors on a regular basic might just be standard practic with this technology.

Interesting. That’s roughly what I’d expect.

IMO its like buying a classic car, Porsche / Ferrari etc. You need to be able to afford it in the first place, but then you need a hefty contingency budget set aside for when it inevitably goes wrong just out of warranty.

As long as the subsequent ‘upgraded’ motors use the same bolt pattern then shouldn’t it be a simple case and replace with the new motor.

Except no bike manufacturer has ever said yes to a motor upgrade. e.g. E8000 to EP8, or Bosch Gen 4 to Bosch Smart. This is a problem because the bike manufacturer or dealer is officially the only place you can buy a new motor and get it setup for the bike. Often you’ll need to also replace the battery, switch, charging port and other parts too. Plus, after 7 years all the old normal bits on your bike will be quite worn compared to a non-ebike.

Some people have done it unofficially though with 2nd hand motors or ones off ebay.

This is a problem because the bike manufacturer or dealer is officially the only place you can buy a new motor and get it setup for the bike. Often you’ll need to also replace the battery, switch, charging port and other parts too. Plus, after 7 years all the old normal bits on your bike will be quite worn compared to a non-ebike.

I think (bit don’t know for certain) that there’s a potential  certification issue too, ie the manufacturer certified that the original frame and motor combo met the requirements to be clsssed as a pedelec under various laws, if you replace the motor system with a new one, it’s no longer the same bike it was, even though that new motor system itself is compliant with the laws.

Except no bike manufacturer has ever said yes to a motor upgrade. e.g. E8000 to EP8, or Bosch Gen 4 to Bosch Smart. This is a problem because the bike manufacturer or dealer is officially the only place you can buy a new motor and get it setup for the bike. Often you’ll need to also replace the battery, switch, charging port and other parts too. Plus, after 7 years all the old normal bits on your bike will be quite worn compared to a non-ebike.

Some people have done it unofficially though with 2nd hand motors or ones off ebay.

Long term we’re (as in society – users, manufacturers, service providers and law makers) going to have to be less precious about them surely. That, or accept there’ll be lots of land fill.

Tens of thousands of these things are going to reach the end of their useful lives with their current components.

From what I and other friends with them have found it seems to be very random. My bike is Shimano EP8, first motor, 13 months, 1200miles, second motor, 3 weeks, 30 miles. Third motor up to 4 weeks and 100 miles so far. No difference in usage, cleaning, conditions etc. Some last ages, some no time, with no pattern.

From by bike shop running friend Bosch fail similarly but are better at warranty, quicker turn around etc than Shimano which have taken 3 weeks plus.

Not shimano. They should stick to brakes, gears and fishing kit.

FWIW, my pal has just had a recon Bosch Gen4 motor fitted.  £325 or thereabouts. 12 month warranty.  Doesn’t seem too bad?  My bike has a Gen4. 3 years old, 2500 miles.  If it packs in I wouldn’t be complaining (much).  Incidentally, it’s still on the same drivetrain, so running costs (apart from tyres) have been zero.

with the warranty on the motor only being two years and the fact that so many fail its a big no from me at the moment. Had my patrol for 7 years.

Normally I would not have considered an E bike but I’ve had long covid for going on 2 years now and riding an analogue bike isn’t possible at the moment.

Normally I would not have considered an E bike but I’ve had long covid for going on 2 years now and riding an analogue bike isn’t possible at the moment.

That was me, a couple of years back. I was loaned a Turbo Levo by a very kind mate, who had it sat around doing not very much. I totally, totally recommend it – I know everyone’s different in how long covid impacts them, but for me it was a sort of bridge between walking and riding a bike again. If nothing else, after months of misery, it let me get to familiar places I hadn’t been to for ages, to ride with mates and, eventually, to start riding a normal bike again.

One of the things I liked about the Levo was that Specialized give you huge control over settings in different modes via their phone app and you can, I think or could back then anyway, use a third party app to actually regulate the power to keep at a specific heart rate. Not sure that’s still an option, I was using an app called Blevo, but I think Spesh has stopped compatibility with that, though you may be able to do it with the Specialized app. I also like that the Levo is relatively quiet at a time when I was quite noise averse generally.

Anyway, I wouldn’t fret overly much over the specific motor, but I figure that’s been covered extensively already, but from the long covid perspective, I’d say absolutely go for it. Possibly the single best thing in my long covid recuperation and that’s from someone who never saw themselves as ever being likely to ride an e-bike. Good luck 🙂

That’s fantastic to hear! Glad your recovered! I can feel myself dropping some coin this weekend…

Yes… just do it. Ultimately the motors in ebikes are something likely to fail. People need to be more accepting of ebikes having more problems and running cost than a “normal” bike… because they always will have. Bikes without motors don’t have motor failures… but it’s irrelevant. Don’t compare buying and owning an ebike to a bike without a motor… it’s not comparable. Like everything else with a motor… be sure to buy it from someone who can sort you out with any early problems quickly… and be prepared for a bigger cost further down the line if something goes wrong. Like a car. Or a washing machine.

Good luck with it and with getting over the long covid. Just riding a bike again put a huge smile on my face every time and that alone makes it worthwhile in my book. Enjoy 🙂

I’ve taken 2 things from this thread.

1.  It mirrors the same discussions as E-cars if you’re the kind to keep a product a while and not chop it in every other year.

2. What an ecological disaster if so many are failing and can’t be fixed or can’t source parts so soon.  There’s another thread where people bestow the virtues of their 199x  Kona hardtails. Can’t see many of the current e-bikes being daily riders in 25-30 years time !

I’m currently waiting for my 4 year old YT Decoy to have some warranty work done. Not the motor though, that’s got about 5k miles on it and seems to be ok (touches wood) so far.

An alloy sleeve for the upper suspension pivot in the main frame debonded creating some play in the rear end which YT have been very good about and within a week of getting the bike back at the Mill in Surrey said “Yep, we’ll get a new frame in”.  Any MTB could have this issue ebike or not.  Admittedly there’s a whole list of other work they’re doing too that I’m paying for but it’s been used 12 months a year in some of the most miserable weathers and conditions around FoD and I looked at the whole thing and went “yep, things have gotten a bit worn”

At this point if the motor goes I accept I’ll just have to replace it, I’m pretty sure I’d have gone through a couple of 100 quids worth of bottom brackets on a regular bike by now anyway.

I also think it’s a bit bit disingenuous saying not many of today’s ebikes will be in daily use in 25 years, I mean, how many of today’s regular MTBs will be? Not many I don’t think. Regarding those konas, how many did they sell and how many are still being used?

At three motors for 2500 miles I’d be a new motor every four months.

IMHO they just haven’t, as a product gotten to where they need to be.

They should be reliable or repairable to not rely on the warranty.

I used to play with e-bikes when you got in a Bafang  rear hub and a pile of rc  lipo and a bms and a pair of big wire plug crimpers and if you had the money a torque sensor and computer,interesting times very much like the first pc’s.

So not an ebike hater 🙂

It’s tempting to just buy something second hand and immediately send the motor off to that ebike motor repair centre that has been featured on Youtube to get the motor rebuilt along with their improved sealing.

Also a model with a removable and replaceable battery.