E-Bikes I think I need help

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  • E-Bikes I think I need help
  • Premier Icon Andy R
    Subscriber

    No, he didn’t – he simply said that because they can cover more ground in the same time that they must cause more damage (of whatever degree).

    True, surely?

    Ramsey Neil
    Member

    All I said was that the more miles you do on a bike , electric or traditional , the more damage you will cause . Show me where I insinuated or implied that e-bikes should be restricted .

    Edit Beaten to it .

    frobisher
    Member

    All I said was that the more miles you do on a bike , electric or traditional , the more damage you will cause . Show me where I insinuated or implied that e-bikes should be restricted .

    But where’s the logical end to that line of argument? Ban superfit riders who cover lots of miles?  They’re doing more damage than fatboy on his electric fatbike who only covers 10 miles before heading to the cake shop, surely? 😉

    There are too many variables to try to use the “they damage trails so ebikes are bad, man” generalisation. I get that they don’t fit into the world view of some who are purists, but they are not just motorbikes no matter what those people think.  Stick it on eco mode and climb a hill faster than your usual efforts would allow and then tell me it’s not giving you any exercise. Stick it in Turbo mode and you get an easy ride up. It’s neither better nor worse – it’s just down to the rider and what they want to get out of the sport.

    Ramsey Neil
    Member

    Not once have I mentioned banning anything . My point is that if you cover twice the distance you will cause twice the damage and it was only made because you said

    ” Therefore if rider a goes up at 5mph and rider b at 10mph with (an appropriate level of) assist then very approximately the same energy is being consumed but, and here’s the crucial bit, rider b on his electric bike is capable of covering more distance in the same time.”

    Which goes against the point that you are trying to make . which is that e-bikes cause no more trail damage than regular bikes .

    frobisher
    Member

    Selective editing, Ramsey Neil. I also mentioned the same distance in less time.

    Your assumption is that the same rider on an e-bike instead of a non e-bike would go twice the distance. They might do but they might not and as there’s no evidence that eMTBs cause more damage than MTBs it’s not helping your point.

    If the person on the eMTB stayed on a normal MTB, did smaller rides and built up fitness they would eventually be travelling further than before. Oh no – they’re causing more damage to the trail!

    See the problem with that line of argument?

    Ramsey Neil
    Member

    A lot of assumptions and not a lot of substance in your arguments . Care to explain why you think this is true .

    “Most arguments against electric bikes are only valid if used against throttle-based ones.”

    Lester
    Member

    Ramsey
    if i do 30 miles on my ebike a week, and someone else does 90 miles, should they be stopped. you might do more miles in the same time than someone not on an ebike, but typically you get 2 – 3 hours out of a charge about 25-30 miles. i know lots of people who regularly ride for longer and further, that argument doesnt quite work. also when i say i can do twice the miles, that might only be 20 miles in total, some else doing twice the miles might only do 15 miles

    Ramsey Neil
    Member

    I give up , I really have got better things to do . It wasn’t me that said that but then if you bothered to read back you would know that .

    frobisher
    Member

    A lot of assumptions and not a lot of substance in your arguments . Care to explain why you think this is true .

    “Most arguments against electric bikes are only valid if used against throttle-based ones.”

    Pot. Kettle!  You’re the one making paper-thin arguments about eMTBs causing more trail damage when I’ve repeatedly (and with sources – e.g. the IMBA studies) pointed out there is no evidence for this.

    Anyhow… many (not necessarily you) treat ebikes as “sit on top and twist throttle to go with no effort whatsoever” and those of us that actually use them are pointing out that this is far from the truth and they are very capable, in the right setting, of causing the user to have to do a lot of exercise.

    I accept that you don’t like them – fine, but don’t go proliferating unsubstantiated arguments about them causing more trail erosion as that just comes across as biased misrepresentation to suit your agenda. There may well be a study out there showing they are more damaging to the trails, but I’m yet to see it if so.

    Ramsey Neil
    Member

    So you can’t explain why you think most arguments against electric bikes are only valid if used against throttle based ones but instead just make assumptions and go putting words into my mouth .

    Anyway just so that you know I have nothing against e-bikes , my job involves selling bikes and e-bikes are a valuable revenue stream for the shop I work in so it’s important that I have good knowledge of them . I have ridden them on numerous occasions including going for a shop training ride with the Spesh rep which involved 5 of us on Turbo Levos offroad it was great fun and I came back absolutely knackered and buzzing at the end of the ride .

    All I said was that you can’t argue that e-bikes cause no more erosion while at also saying that people can ride further on them in the same time which is what you did .

    By the way I just took a quick look at the IMBA report on e-bikes and trail erosion and came up with this .

    Physical impacts to trails from eMTBs will likely fall
    somewhere between those caused by mountain bikes
    and motorcycles. We expect that they will much more
    closely resemble those of mountain bikes.
    • We expect that eMTBs may lead to more soil
    displacement under certain conditions, such as
    through turns, including bermed turns; on ascents and
    descents; and where there are abrupt changes in trail
    conditions.

    frobisher
    Member

    You’ve also snipped off the bit I originally quoted. Accidentally I’m sure and not so it looks to support your argument more, right? “However, for the most part, the soil impacts observed in this study were not greatly different from those of mountain bikes”

    They’ve also softened their stance on eMTBs on trails: https://www.bikeradar.com/mtb/news/article/imba-updates-stance-on-e-bikes-51230/ This change in stance combined with a lack of willingness to publish their full report has led many people to make the not-illogical leap of faith that their full report would not be all that damning to eMTBs or why else would they change their stance?

    I’m not denying that riding further causes more erosion, but that’s not limited to eMTBs and yet that’s where you seem to want to pitch it.  Yes, an unfit person can immediately go further.  But then an unfit person who gradually built up fitness on a non-eMTB could also go further and then do “more damage”.  You are conflating trail damage with eMTBs only as far as I can see – or repeatedly failing to acknowledge the problem isn’t just with eMTBs it’s with any form of usage of the trail… bike, e-bike, horse, motorbike and… walking:

    Turn your ire on walkers: http://www.mbr.co.uk/news/research-reveals-walkers-do-more-damage-to-trails-than-mountain-bikers-335785

    Lester
    Member

    @Ramsey

    “Which goes against the point that you are trying to make . which is that e-bikes cause no more trail damage than regular bikes.”

    i took this to mean that you thought that e-bikes caused more trail erosion?

    and you are right, i didnt read back and see this

    “All I said was that the more miles you do on a bike , electric or traditional , the more damage you will cause . ”

    although i have read this thread a few times and contributed, sorry for the hasty reply

    Ramsey Neil
    Member

    That’s classy , I appreciate that Lester .

    Ramsey Neil
    Member

    frobisher said “Selective editing, Ramsey Neil. I also mentioned the same distance in less time.”

    Wrong it wasn’t selective editing , I just posted the most relevant bit , it’s not like I took the middle bit out or anything like that .

    frobisher said “Pot. Kettle! You’re the one making paper-thin arguments about eMTBs causing more trail damage when I’ve repeatedly (and with sources – e.g. the IMBA studies) pointed out there is no evidence for this.”

    Wrong I was pointing out your confused logic , I didn’t ever say that e-MTB’s cause more erosion , just that as you said they could go further in the same amount of time as human powered MTBs then that would cause more trail erosion .

    Wrong The IMBA did not say there was no evidence that e-mtbs don’t cause more trail damage , they have softened their position on trail access for e-mtb’s because of the sheer amount of them but they say under certain conditions e-bikes will cause more erosion.

    frobisher said You are conflating trail damage with eMTBs only as far as I can see – or repeatedly failing to acknowledge the problem isn’t just with eMTBs it’s with any form of usage of the trail… bike, e-bike, horse, motorbike and… walking:

    Wrong Why should I have to acknowledge anything , everything causes trail damage in different levels and I don’t have an anti e-bike agenda .

    frobisher said Turn your ire on walkers: http://www.mbr.co.uk/news/research-reveals-walkers-do-more-damage-to-trails-than-mountain-bikers-335785

    Not wrong as such but there are statistics out there that prove quite the opposite , as they say you can prove anything with statistics .

    This has been probably my longest Singletrack post ever . Can somebody explain how to do quotes these days .
    Anybody on here remember Dylan Turvey from the MTBR forum , arguing with him with facts was like throwing eggs at a tank as he just rumbled on as your arguments just bounced off like the eggs on the tank , ultimately you could never win . I never thought I would feel like that again , until today .

    No more from me I have pretty much hijacked this thread and achieved nothing. Goodnight .

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