Conversely, the assist downhill stops at 15mph, and all you’re left with is a sluggish, heavy bike spinning out on a 1×11 drivetrain with a tiny, twiddly chainring.

Bicycles for people who don’t really like riding bikes?

You’ve never ridden one downhill anywhere have you?

Firstly. You do realise there is no drag while freewheeling an emtb? The drag while pedalling over 15mph on the flat is quite noticable but any drag while pedalling gravity assisted far less so. Spinning out my 1×11 drivetrain doesn’t ever happen on my normal mtb except for on road descents so why would you think it happens on my similarly geared emtb?

Let someone who has done around 250miles of descending in the last 8 weeks on an emtb explain a few basics to you:

Yes. They are heavier. To be precise my 170mm emtb is around 14lb heavier than my 170mm carbon enduro bike. both have an incredibly similar build, geometry, brakes and suspension. (11spd GX. LyrikRCT/Monarch vs 11speed XT LyrikRC/SDeluxe being the main differences). There’s no way to get around this extra weight but there certainly are ways to make it work for you. I have altered my descending style very slightly to compensate for the extra fatigue those extra pounds contribute to. I’m usually a very lively poppy sort of rider who hops/jumps from line to line often, manuals and drifts a lot as it’s incredibly fun. I’m a fast descender. But I’d rather be having fun than shaving seconds off an irrelivent onlie leaderboard. Riding a 14lb heavier bike in the same manner means your body will tire quicker (hops/manuals take a little more strength). But this doesn’t mean you can’t ride in a similar style. it just means you need to be cleverer about it. looking for natural lips, compressions and small kicks to raise your wheels with less effort. The plus sides of that extra 14lb is that my Emtb holds a LOT more momentum, gives a greater boost from a pump, and grips better than the other bike. The only real downside of all that extra momentum when descending is your braking points become fractionally earlier but we are talking fractions here. and it becomes second nature very quickly knowing where and how hard to brake. My DH times have actually been faster since riding an emtb. Not because of the motor. but because I ride it smoother and the fact that I’m getting 4 times as much quality mtb descending in each week compared to pre-emtb ownership where I’d ride more mileage per week but being  a combination of XC, DH/Enduro and road, far less quality off road descending. I think I’ve been out on the roadbike and XC bike once each in the past 2 months whereas previously I’d have ridden both at least once every week.
It does take a little while to get used to the different handling an emtb has. I’d be very surprised if many riders get dialled into this completely after only one ride. The first week I had mine I took it to a local jump spot and couldn’t believe how terrible it felt compared to my other bikes… a few weeks later when more familiar with it I spent an evening at a jump park getting to grips with the differences. I’m glad to say it does everything my other bikes will in the air. ie. it tables, whips, scrubs fine. it’s just a bit more stable and with all that weight low and central inputs need to be slightly different (this is also the same for manualling/hopping it BTW). But the same can be said of my 26lb 4X bike in comparison to my 32lb Enduro bike or 35/6lb DH bikes.

Oh.. and BTW. brake pad wear and tyre wear are exactly on a par with my other bikes so that kinda blows this increased trail erosion scaremongering out the window too. (I don’t use stupid plus tyres either)

s that really the kind of power they can produce? I presumed you’d get about 300w overall from an unfit rider which is what a decent xc rider can produce on their own for sustained periods.

If sprinted up a hill at 600w I’d expect a lot of wheelspin and scrabble. The thought of an increasing number of people regularly doing this on heavy bikes and chunky tires is pretty alarming.

I’d ban them from off road personally. Fantastic vehicle for road journeys sure but our woodlands are in a precarious state as it is without adding to the erosion. Don’t forget all that mass coming back down the hill will tear up the descents too, especially if the rider likes to skid.

Please actually ride one before spouting such twaddle. They do not “rip trails up” or output that kind of power continuously. Also most come with plus tyres which are probably less erosive than most on the trails.

I can see the point of eMTB’s but it’s not for me at the moment.  I was a die hard roadie (been doing MTB since the 90’s as well) but got my spine broken by a driver on the way to work 2.5 years ago.  I’ve ditched road, but I just ride MTB now. I’m lucky I hardly need to use roads where I live (edge of Peaks).

I struggle, but it’s helped get my fitness back after months of basically lying down.  I’m not as fit as I was, but I enjoy the struggle to stay fit – just reminds me how lucky I was not to be in a wheel chair.  I get ‘down’ because of it, and the pain can be bad, especially on the ‘hike a bike’ parts going up non-rideable hills.

I do, no doubt, think I’ll need an eMTB at some point, but not until I really can’t get up hills.  I’m still one of the quicker riders up hills in my group of ride lads, but slowest down (injury mentality).  If I start getting dropped by the young lads then I might consider it.

Just not for me at the moment.  I still have the roadie mentality of enjoying the ‘climb’.

Good to hear you’re pushing through fossy.  I’ve had too many near misses on the road on my mtb I won’t countenance it.

Like you, the MTB keeps me fit enjoyably. If you talk to the 90 year olds you find up mountains then it’s not making it easy on themselves that’s enabled them to be there.

That’s where I want to be in 45 years time, so…

I think it is all about choice and circumstance. I am time poor and tend not to cycle in the winter. Every spring it is harder and less enjoyable to get my fitness back. Also at my age (53) the steeper hills hurt and really take it out of me. So I tend to find an e-bike more fun early season and for the bigger hillier rides. Locally I will look to take my analog bike, but again sometimes in the past I would not go out if it was too windy or I felt a bit tired etc. Now I just take the ebike instead and enjoy the ride. I am also doing more tech and downhill as I can get more uphills in before my fitness limits the ride.

What I really cannot understand is people who think they should be banned etc. They do absolutely no harm to anyone else…who cares if someone else is not geting the workout/suffering to the same extent as you? As for the erosion argument…just clutching at straws to justify a prejudice.

Live and let live I say.

“not for me at the moment”
“maybe if I start getting dropped by younger riders”

These are both pretty common things I hear said about emtbs.

I’d been holding out for a few years hoping the weight of a capable 150-170mm emtb would aproach that of a modern DH bike (38-40lb ish) and battery range to increase. Which TBF I now accept is unlikely to ever happen in my lifetime (even the very lightest carbon emtbs in that category are closer to 46lb with a 500wh battery and I certainly wouldn’t want less range).
What has happened is emtb geometry and suspension designs have settled into something incredibly capable all round but particulaly with regards to descending. Mine has 170mm travel, a 64deg H/A, 440mm stays and a 326mm BB height. in short it’s an absolute pinner DH.
Now that I do have one. I wish they’d been around when I was in my 20s instead of *wasting whole weekends pushing a 48lb DH bike up hill for 40mins-1hr for 4minutes of descending time.
I don’t *need* one through lack of fitness, injury or illness. I just wanted one. and now I do I have absolutely no regrets.
I’m in no way trying to convert anyone to emtb here. I’m simply laying down some bare facts for anyone less informed. I don’t really care whether others like or dislike the idea but either way please stop talking utter nonsense about them.

*it wasn’t a waste. It was a great scene, I made a lot of great friends through and learned how to ride a DH bike reletively fast from. But those days are gone

I took a Kenevo out on a test at Malvern yesterday and can attest to the fact that you will still be ‘blowin out yo ass’ because you’ll end up racing other E’bikes uphill, which was fun. But I didn’t really like the way it handled and the feeling of engine braking when you let off the gas, I guess that’s something you get used to with time. If winching up steep hills and plummeting back down at breakneck speeds as many times as you can is your bag then definitely go out and buy one, for me I’m getting old but I ain’t dead yet, but I  guarantee there is a place for one in the not too distant future, after all it’s still MTB and I’d sooner die on the bike than in me bed!!!

 engine braking when you let off the gas

How does that work when there’s a freehub on the rear wheel?

Heavy bike, Big draggy plus tyres and a false sense of your actual effort level?

The shimano motors orignal transition from assist to cut out at only 14mph was pretty harsh. With the latest firmware update it’s far smoother, it actually assists to 15mph now, the assist modes and power delivery are way nicer. I run my trail mode one level higher than stock though as I thought it was too little assistance and too big a jump to BOOOOOOOOOOOOOST.

Pretty sure the specialized app allows you to tailor the settings even more than the Shimano app. I think the Specialized Brose motor is meant to be the least draggy of all (above 15mph cut off) but not as as smooth in delivery as the shimano. You’d need to ask someone with more time on both really.

Not engine braking then as it doesn’t slow you down when you stop pedaling any more than on a none ebike.😉

Unless I’m missing something?

Only had a quick go on a Shimano and a Bosch setup, but can’t see how the motor can slow the bike when there’s a freewheel.

it can’t. and doesn’t

#Ignorethefokelore

The drag is through the BB/motor as you exceed the assist limit. it’s nothing to worry about for a fit and healthy rider though. you either just put in that little extra effort or you nurse it along at exactly15mph (or slightly under) depending on your sense of entitlement/unashamed cheating ethos. 😉

it’s nothing to worry about for a fit and healthy rider though.

I’m **** then as I’m now over 50.😂

Some motors decouple as you exceed the assist speed limit, some don’t. The Bosch motor doesn’t decouple at all and at slow speed with the motor off or when decoupling in boost mode it feels like riding in treacle. The transition from assisted to unassisted is not so noticeable in the lower power modes. The Brose (Specialized) motor decouples completely so all you are doing over 15.5mph is pedaling a heavy bike. I am under the impression that the Shimano motor also decouples but I haven’t ridden one so can’t be sure.

Whatever motor you have, there’s no more drag when freewheeling and eBike than there is from an analogue bike.

We had a couple of people call us cheats at Malvern today, I just laughed and pointed out I was having fun. I don’t care what others think; I’m riding way more than I ever did with my clockwork bike and having way more fun doing it.

I love the whole “cheat” thing. Who exactly are we cheating?

No idea. Strava Queens maybe. worried we’ll steal their KOMs.

I’m certainly not cheating myself; without the eBike I wouldn’t be out anything like as much.

Who exactly are we cheating?

The hill I would assume. I’d assume that was just light hearted banter. I’ve had walkers and runners say the same to me when riding past them on a normal bike. It’s what makes the world go around.

@Stu I’m close myself

As Dom says. Shimano does de-couple but there’s still some drag to overcome

As for being heckled at Malverns I’d be heckling you for calling my bike “analogue” or “clockwork”. They’re just bikes Dom 😉

This is quite handy in understanding the differences between a few of the more popular motors.
https://ebike-mtb.com/en/best-emtb-motor-2018-review/5/

It’s just a lighthearted way of differentiating between assisted and non-assisted bikes when referring to both in a post.

EDIT: I don’t want to refer to non-assisted bikes as “normal” bikes in case it reinforces the misnomer that eBikes are not bicycles.

Some of the cheat comments are lighthearted too, but not all of them. Engage with them and it’s easy to tell which they are.

From what I see around my bit of the Peak, I think e-bikes are taking off across many different genre’s of cyclist’s. I’m seeing more pricey full sus affairs and equally more recreational rider’s on them, and there is a lad on some giant e-road bike I see when our shifts correspond on the ride to work. Seems all good to me, I never noticed the same speed of uptake with different wheel sizes. They certainly look happier than the folk I see strapping loads of luggage to road bikes and taking them off road.

im sceptical of the claim that they were reasonable tbh, i used to be reasonably fit, and i now ride an ebike, i doubt an ebike would keep up with someone who is reasonably fit.

The one I followed would.  I have only had one encounter with a person on an eMTB and they helped me get a PB on a few hill sections of a 3 mile mostly uphill fire road.  I averaged 15mph over the 3 miles (and I know I am not slow as I am in the top 10 out of a 1000+ people on that 3 miles segment)

I was putting in as much effort as I could for the 3 miles and I could see he was taking it very easy and just gently turning around the pedals for the whole distance.  Not sure what mode he was in or what type of ebike as I never managed to actually catch him as was always 10-20 metres behind.

If you watched the series with that old fella who was riding around the Lake District with his son. TV fella who used to be in Eastenders and other stuff. His lad wasn’t an amazing cycling but was decent and pretty fit it seemed. Well the old fella was cruising away from him on the road on an E-hybrid. I assume because of the nature of the Prog it was a hire bike and therefore completely legal and unchipped. But on the hills, it was seemingly fairly effortless for him.

Give me an Avionics V1 or an Italjet Mantra/Bulldozer ebike and I will be happy. I would post photos if I could work out how on my iPad. Who cares whether they make you sweat…..they are the future and Uber cool.

Weeksy, larry and george lamb I believe.

was quite a good programme actually.

I don’t have one, but I do think they are bloody brilliant, the newer bikes are great.

I rode the frighteningly expensive Focus (150/160? travel thing?), carbon frame etc, good geo & light, for an e-bike around the Forest of Dean. I managed 30odd KM in an hour and a half, riding pretty much every single off piste, and official trail I could find (stuff I’ve raced on in the past).

I rode up the unofficial push up, which is bloody hard work even walking up, and impossible to ride unassisted as it’s so steep, 6 times, which was brutal.

I was absolutely hanging at the end, and i’m what I would consider pretty fit. Most importantly, I had a massive grin on my face.

If I lived out that way, i’d be all over one. They would be brilliant and BPW. I can pedal up in the same turnaround as an uplift there, on an e-bike, i’d get another 5-6 runs in, in the same amount of time.

Sounds great.

You have a DJ bike that weighs the same as your Ebike? WTF? My DJ bike is exactly 20lb lighter than my 46lb Emtb. (lighter than most 170mm travel emtbs)

My “DJ bike” is a fun bike… steel frame and heavy spring forks … its got a 11-28 on the back as well and 2 brakes.

Don’t have en e-bike… though my brother does.

The main characteristic of the bike was cost 😀  (and weight) It was meant to be under £200 but the Halo SAS rear at £50 pushed it over.  I don’t actually know what it weighs … it would probably bend the cheap luggage scales but sticking it on the car its more than my trail and XC bikes combined.

It’s just a fun bike I got to improve my jumping, not worry about breaking and have fun and pedalling it 20 miles on the relative flat (e.g. round Swinley) means I get more exercise.  The 170mm old Maz bomber springs aren’t ideal for DJ but its good enough to have fun

Anyway, surely the point is that everyone should be forced to cycle a 40lb bike at all times or they are somehow cheating.. 😉 ??

From my perspective (perceived effort and perceived knackeredness) riding the heavy, slack  bike up a long and damned steep hill has almost nothing in common with a light road or CX bike or even a carbon HT XC bike.. same with maintaining an average speed…

Weeksy, larry and george lamb I believe.

was quite a good programme actually.

yes and  yes it was

When I picked up my new Trek Fuel I went out on the Superfly whilst they set it all up etc.

Was actually better than I imagined and if I could afford a decent one I would have one. For the types of riding I do it would be perfect and can only see them getting better and better.

I think it is all about choice and circumstance. I am time poor and tend not to cycle in the winter. Every spring it is harder and less enjoyable to get my fitness back. Also at my age (53) the steeper hills hurt and really take it out of me. So I tend to find an e-bike more fun early season and for the bigger hillier rides. Locally I will look to take my analog bike, but again sometimes in the past I would not go out if it was too windy or I felt a bit tired etc. Now I just take the ebike instead and enjoy the ride. I am also doing more tech and downhill as I can get more uphills in before my fitness limits the ride.

What I really cannot understand is people who think they should be banned etc. They do absolutely no harm to anyone else…who cares if someone else is not geting the workout/suffering to the same extent as you? As for the erosion argument…just clutching at straws to justify a prejudice.

Live and let live I say.

I’m not easily able to differentiate between my medical issues and just getting older and lifestyle.

One thing i have noticed though is it takes very little time to go from being fit enough to enjoy myself to not.

A few months ago I was happy and having fun cycling some longish climbs like the wall… a bit of 20 hour work days, a bit of not exercising at all (hardly) etc. and I lose the fitness to go out and have fun very quickly…

Jnr has had a few races at the weekends I’ve got and we rode uplift in-between…. and in just a few short weeks on top of this my fitness dived.  Last week Jnr has some skipping workshop and I go to show him how to skip.. (I used to skip 1-2 hours almost EVERY day decades ago) and about 2 mins and I felt like crap..(spent 1/2 hour with tachycardia that I haven’t had for years). Got a casual ride in yesterday and decided I would take the trail bid round Swinley which isn’t cheating as much as the XC bike but I didn’t feel up to a lap on the heavy bike.  I even swapped wheels with the XC and stuck on some fast rolling tyres I was feeling that crap.

Next 3 weekends I’ll get almost no exercise… as I’m away with work in the middle of nowhere… and will probably have to work weekends anyway… so I’ll be even less fit when I get back 🙁

brake pad wear and tyre wear are exactly on a par with my other bikes so that kinda blows this increased trail erosion scaremongering out the window too.

kinda, but not really.  You can still ride them like a dick and repeatedly roost up and cut in berms on flat sections of footpath in AsONB.  For example.

Yes, it’s possible to put braking skids in with a normal bike, but you wouldn’t (and they didn’t) because you’d have to pedal your way up to speed again.

Not helping matters in an area with some great off piste and a delicate balance with walkers and landowners.

for balance, some of the guys with e bikes are keen locals who put a fair bit of effort into trail building.  If e-bikes give them more scope for ferrying tools and more energy for digging, I’m behind them all the way (literally, probably).

It’d be a shame if some of the activity on walkers’ paths led to the same trails been torn up, though.

I’m waiting for the price to drop as they become more popular, then I’ll have one, it’ll be chipped / modded for as much power as possible and I’ll ride with impunity. Wait til Go Outdoors offer an eBossnut or similar and mod it to offer 4KW like a 50cc motorbike. That’s the future…

impunity: exemption from punishment or freedom from the injurious consequences of an action.

You won’t!  Eff it up and hurt someone and you’ll be in deeper shit than you’d have been on a legal bike.

Oh sorry, I meant gay abandon, not impunity. I always mix them two up.

kinda, but not really.  You can still ride them like a dick and repeatedly roost up and cut in berms on flat sections of footpath in AsONB.  For example.

Yes, it’s possible to put braking skids in with a normal bike, but you wouldn’t (and they didn’t) because you’d have to pedal your way up to speed again.

What I said several pages ago about the haterz being imaginary – I guess not all of them are.

A very specific comment about a very specific path where bikes aren’t allowed anyway, and that makes the eMTBs not the riders the bad thing here?

Rode at Cannock for first time on Saturday maybe 50/50 ebike , pedal bike mix which did surprise me. I will have one at some point in the future but for now I enjoy the pedalling and physical challenge. Don’t really care what other people are doing.  There was a definite vibe for some pro and anti on the trails but hey who cares. Had to take up roadying to keep my fitness up as age creeps in but surprisingly quite enjoy that as well.

Will the price come down.? Not sure about that really have you checked out top end bike prices.

kinda, but not really.

No. Not kinda or not really. But factual information.

Don’t try to put some bizarre fictitious spin on it. it is what it is.
Same rider, same riding style. same trails, 2 very similar bikes except for the motor/battery/assistance. same distances ridden. same wear rates.

Blimey, some comprehension failure here. geex said his pads and tyres don’t get worn any more than when he’s on his non-ebike, and said “that kinda blows this increased trail erosion scaremongering out the window too.”

I responded by saying that it doesn’t really blow it out of the window, because there are other circumstances where it’s possible to ride them in a way that creates erosion in places that wouldn’t really attract it on normal bikes.

All about the way they can be ridden, not about the bikes themselves.  and another post straight after that for context and balance.  philjunior, you really ignored and misread quite a lot to decide that I’m an ebike hater. or even an ebike rider hater.

And geex, I’ve got no idea why you thought my information was fictitious, or spin, or about you.  I thought it was pretty obvious I was talking about a specific example.   Quite happy to take your info about pad/tyre wear as useful info, just wanted to counter that it’s not the whole picture, there’s other riders than you, so it’s not really the final word in the discussion.

pointless point is pointless.

indeed.