Mobility scooters in a way, aren’t they?

Nah, they have 4 wheels and an engine, so are exactly the same as cars.

Agreed. ^ Cars are just mobility ‘scooters’ (When I say ‘scooter’ I say it in the sense they say ‘hamster’, when Richard Hammond isn’t a real hamster)

Thing is with these new ‘cars’ (trendy mobility scooters) is they use a loophole in the law to sneak them into shopping areas and motorbike parks.

“They may be different classes of motorcycle, but they all have a motor and two wheels. A push bike has NO motor, therefor it’s NOT a motorbike. It’s quite simple really. Nowt quasi religious about my point of view, it’s just logical.”

A motor (2 motors, actually) cycle, earlier…

I think it was kind of obvious that the motor was part of the primary drivetrain.

They are (very low powered) motorbikes. They are not solely human powered vehicles. Some mopeds do have pedals. I have no problem with any motorbike used responsibly and vaguely in line with the law; I think people that derestrict their ebikes are asking for trouble both for ebiking in general and themselves in particular if they’re unfortunate enough to be involved in an accident.

Mobility scooters in a way, aren’t they?

Nah, they have 4 wheels and an engine, so are exactly the same as cars.

They seem a lot like a motorised carriage to me. Although again, very low powered. I have seen some with number plates, I imagine they’re considered as something weird under the law, but basically they’re a slow low powered car.

One thing that amazes me about ebikes is when people start chipping/souping up their £5k plus ebike, when if they wanted speed a powerful motorbike could be had for far less than their slow, illegal motorbike.

Caveat – of course I think they should be treated more like a bike as they’re clearly much more like a bike to ride, as you’ll see if you watch any MTB derived ebike video vs the FIM ebike races which were incredibly cringey to watch!

, I imagine they’re considered as something weird under the law, but basically they’re a slow low powered car.

No, a car is a high-powered mobility scooter 🙄. No matter how many loopholes and weird laws you can point to, the fact is that people use cars in place of walking, cycling or running. Cars are mobility ‘scooters‘ and have been since the Benz Patent Motorwagen. I don’t care how mobility scooter-drivers defend their use of them, just don’t call it something it is not. A ‘car’ is a mobility aid. With wheels and a motor. ie a mobility scooter. It is powered solely by a motor and not at all by a human. Otherwise it would be something else. It doesn’t bother me what people call it as long as they aren’t kidding themselves or others. Doesn’t matter what the law says, it doesn’t change the fact of the matter. Anything with more than two wheels and motor-driven is a mobility scooter by definition. Not legal definition, ACTUAL definition.

the fact is that people use cars in place of walking, cycling or running.

Sure, but “You wanna go check out my expensive German car” works as a pick-up line. “You wanna go check out my mobility scooter” doesn’t (with any lady I’m interested in, anyway).

Or when you’re chatting to a rider on the trail, I dont need to hear why your day is going so much better than mine because you’re on an ebike.

As an ebike rider I regularly forget to do this, must put more effort into appearing superior…..or maybe I don’t do it cos I don’t give a shit and no one else does, I can’t believe anyone else does it either tbh

Sure, but “You wanna go check out my expensive German car” works as a pick-up line.

Sure, but “You wanna go check out my expensive German car” works as a pick-up line.

You’ve got my attention, hunk. When can we meet up?

Whats needed are ebike specific trails.
So I dont have to get stuck behind those still on their retro pedalbikes s l o w ly riding uphill.
Like a rolling roadblock they are, looking all sweaty & angry.

Whats needed are ebike specific trails.
So I dont have to get stuck behind those still on their retro pedalbikes s l o w ly riding uphill.
Like a rolling roadblock they are, looking all sweaty & angry.

🤣

Reminds me of the time I took the CX bike to Swinley.

Red faced e-bike rider / Heart attack waiting to happen / e-bike riding gent: “We’ve been stuck behind you for 20 minutes”.

Now bear in mind that;
1) Flat out, Swinley is only a bit over an hour a lap even on a human powered bike.
2) There are about 40 sections, with fire road between each, there is nowhere that’s 20 minutes between overtaking opportunities.
3) I’d only slowed down to force him to buzz my tyre as I’d caught up with a family with kids spinning up the last little single track climb on the red back to tank traps

I can only assume that this poor bloke had been getting within catching distance on the climbs before almost having a heart attack trying to catch up on the flat bits! Slowly getting more and more worked up by the perceived insult that my legs and a beaten up SSCX with V-brakes were outgunning his £5k Specialized e-enduro thingumabob.!

^^^ a good reason to avoid trail centres… 🙂

Reminds me of the time I took the CX bike to Swinley.

Wow that sounds all of the awsumz. 🤣

Wow that sounds all of the awsumz. 🤣

It’s the shizzle. Slower than the mountainbike overall, with immediate face melting death if the front end were to slide on a berm!

Not sure I’d be able to stay awake with all that excitement. 🥱

@taxi25

I think at some point there’ll be a relook at e-mtb’s and thier use on bridleways and shared off road paths.

I agree – and I think they’ll probably also take a look at mountain bikes too, which isn’t a good thing.

@philjunior

They are (very low powered) motorbikes.

Yep. Unlike @Kerley’s point that it’s just me – a lot of people can see: Bike + Motor = Motorbike (no matter how shit and underpowered the motor is).

a good reason to avoid trail centres…

They aren’t all like that, neither is Swinley for me. Maybe if you didn’t avoid them you’d apprecaite that? 🙂

Back on topic.. does it matter how a bike’s power is generated? If a lazy rider + ebike is worth 350W, then what is the difference between that and a fit rider generating 350W? Nothing that I can see.

Compare that to an actual motorbike with its multiple kW then there’s a very obvious difference. So eBikes are clearly not in the same category.

@molgrips

Back on topic.. does it matter how a bike’s power is generated?

clearly yes – or there wouldn’t be a bazillion threads on this very subject.

🙂

Maybe a properly fit National level rider who uses a power meter can clarify but I’d imagine that most ‘average’ riders can properly sustain 350W on a climb for only 5 minutes or so….to sustain 350W on a decent climb for 30-45mins would surely be a tiny percentage of riders, probably at or near national level – while 400W sustained for an hour is Bradley Wiggins level surely (my numbers may be well off). So quite a big difference anyway…ebikes convert cold hard cash into superhuman performance which is maybe the underlying thing getting peoples goats up…now where’s that jiffy bag.

For going up a hill yes but for a 100 mile ride with some uphills in it then 10s of thousands of road cyclists would be faster than a person on an bike that tops out at 15.5mph

Yep. Unlike @ Kerley’s point that it’s just me – a lot of people can see: Bike + Motor = Motorbike (no matter how shit and underpowered the motor is).

yes, when a lot of people = 2

Go out an show people an ebike and a motorbike and ask what each of them is. 99% of people will not say the ebike is a motorbike.

Back on topic.. does it matter how a bike’s power is generated? If a lazy rider + ebike is worth 350W, then what is the difference between that and a fit rider generating 350W? Nothing that I can see.

Exactly. We’re fat lazy biffers putting no effort in but at the same time we’re putting down 58Mwatts and tearing up trails.

Bicycle + rider input (pedalling) + limited electric motor-assist =/= Motorbike

Fixed that for you. Pedantry + physics > tabloidism

/mathsteacher on for @Malvern Rider

Bicycle + rider input (spinning pedals) + massive electric motor-assist = ebike

ebike = motor + bike = motorbike

Fixed 🙂

clearly yes – or there wouldn’t be a bazillion threads on this very subject.

Should it matter? Or are we just being precious?

Maybe a properly fit National level rider who uses a power meter can clarify but I’d imagine that most ‘average’ riders can properly sustain 350W on a climb for only 5 minutes or so

And?

We’re talking about the impact eBikers have on other trail users, aren’t we? So it’s entirely possible for a bike to buzz past a walker at speed regardless of how it’s powered.

If we’re talking about ‘is it a motorbike’ then eBikes are clearly far closer to the realms of bikes than motorbikes.

I don’t ride one and I have no plans to do so, but the opprobrium is clearly just reactionary, and a little bit of superiority complex.

“Go out an show people an ebike and a motorbike and ask what each of them is. 99% of people will not say the ebike is a motorbike.”

With anyone who isn’t a keen cyclist I have to actively point out that my ebike actually has a motor and battery, they just think it’s a big bouncy mountain bike.

Maybe if you didn’t avoid them you’d apprecaite that? 🙂

TBH I quite like them and once I’m over my injury me and my Orbea Wild FS will be getting to Drumlanrig for some fun, can’t wait as I had a bad tumble 10 minutes into maiden ride on the bike weekend before last.

 but I’d imagine that most ‘average’ riders can properly sustain 350W on a climb for only 5 minutes or so….

I think your underestimating the gulf between average and elite. On a 6min road climb near me 350w would get you top 15 out of 3,700, according to Strava anyway . I know thats Strava power estimates but it’s not far out when averaged out accross a large sample.

It’s only cyclists who get bothered about ebikes, mountain biking is about more than just moving the pedals round it’s about riding a bike. The sort of person who thinks strava events are a sport is the same person who doesn’t get ebikes, the same person thinks to enjoy a downhill you have to have suffered on an uphill, the same person thinks being able to ride a trail fast means years of training. Meh I couldn’t care less about the pedalling side of cycling but I do enjoy the speed side and an ebike gives me that. I can put in 100% effort on a normal bike and lap a local trail centre in a normal 55 minutes right in the ballpark of average or I can put in 100% and lap the same course slightly quicker than the fastest national rider, guess which gives me the most fun and Adrenalin for the same effort, I’m still working just as hard but I’m getting a lot more speed for it.

I don’t have one but don’t have a problem with them at all. If they allow more people to get out and enjoy time on a bike then that’s cool. When my joints are shot i’ll get one.

Bicycle + rider input (spinning pedals) + massive electric motor-assist = ebike

ebike = motor + bike = motorbike

That makes no sense at all as an equation because you missed out a crucial factor in the last line. Let me humour your efforts and correct it:

Bicycle + rider input (spinning pedals) + electric motor-assist = Electrically Assisted Pedal Cycle (EAPC)

electric motor + bike minus pedal mechanism/requirement = electric scooter or electric motorbike

See what you did? You sneakily subtracted the rider power/mechanism to reach an (erroneous) result, yet didn’t show this in your working-out.

Paper spoiled. F for effort.

This thread is a bit like

Brilliant. Like every other thread on here then 🙂
Thats the rest of my evening sorted. Badiel & Newman on youtube.

Meh I couldn’t care less about the pedalling side of cycling

As someone that has no problem at all with ebikes I still find that statement alien to why I love riding bikes. The physical effort, even if just twiddling away in a low gear is a fundamental part of riding. For me.

I’m not saying you are wrong, it’s not even about right or wrong… I just find that statement at odds with what biking is. For me anyway.

Sorry to go a little of topic.

^ this is the fundamental issue at the core of some cyclists unease with ebikes.

Mind you, I regard ski resorts and all their infrastructure as a crime against mountains and mountaineering, so I’m possibly not the best judge.

^^ Unease? Yes possibly but tempered with acceptance and tolerance.

As long as you enjoy whatever bike you are riding and how you are riding it, also not breaking rule 1 then it’s all good in my book.

I’m still working just as hard but I’m getting a lot more speed for it.

but you aren’t working as hard for as long. Though it does sound like fun.

imagine that most ‘average’ riders can properly sustain 350W

Youd be shocked then.

I think the whole classification thing is a red herring really. Something to latch onto for ammunition against the rapidly moving wave of change that many, rightly or wrongly see as a threat to what they love and enjoy.

I don’t have an ebike, but 90% of my rides are with a mate on an ebike. In that case, the ebike has been a total leveller. Whereas before it would feel like he wasn’t with us for barely any of the ride, we’d have constant waiting periods for him on climbs, getting cold, getting bored. Now, that’s not the case. I can see an ebike in my future. They shift the ratio of fun to effort more towards the fun end, and it’s a human trait to desire that I think.

The trail centre mention above, the chairlifted ski area mention too, and if you think of mountains like Snowdon with its railway,  I think these sorts of images are what people are worried about on this relatively small island.

Effort has always been the natural barrier to keeping numbers and therefore degradation, perceived or otherwise, down in some of our most beautiful and isolated places. Removing that natural barrier and the fear of what will happen without any barriers is imho at the heart of this resistance for ebikes, and a latching on to classifications.

Of course, removing barriers, enjoyment and equality for all is what we must strive for…but, I think at the heart of the resistance for ebikes is the fear for the places that people love, where they seek solitude away from the chaotic, selfie-snapping masses, becoming just like that scene of Snowdon above.

It’s a debate that’ll keep going anyway that’s for sure 😂

I think these sorts of images are what people are worried about on this relatively small island

Great Britain is the ninth largest island in the world, out of at least 200 islands with populations greater than 100 000. More accurate to say “this relatively large island”, surely. The UK ranks 32nd in population density, with about 25% of the population density of Bangladesh (in seventh place) and about half of South Korea (in thirteenth place), so you could also say “this relatively sparsely populated country”.

Uh, yeah. Ok. 👍