Search the forum using the power of Google

  • This topic has 32 replies, 21 voices, and was last updated 2 years ago by enmac.
Viewing 33 posts - 1 through 33 (of 33 total)
  • E-bike ‘lite’. Levo SL, Orbea Rise RS etc
  • snotrag
    Full Member

    Levo SL

    Rise M20

    Its a while since I’ve ridden an E-bike but I did find the mass made a fundamental difference to the way I rode, and made it a ‘different’ sport and possibly not my thing.

    However I find these a really interesting concept, the way Specialized describe it is as “You times two” as opposed to the “You times 4” of a regular, bigger, heavier e-bike.

    Interesting that Orbea have chosen a ‘full power’ motor setup but detuned it – this presumably would lead to good durability and reliability too (The Orbea uses a new Shimano EP8 but custom limited to just 60Nm of torque).

    The Fazua system looks like a good compromise too, but other than the Kinesis Hardtail I’ve not seen any other well known brands using it for a suspended trail bike, a few dodgy looking euro-style XC things is all thats listed on their website.

    Has anyone ridden either of these? Is anyone aware of any other similar bikes?

    Do we think other manufacturers might follow a similar path – I was slightly disappointed for instance with the new Heckler when it was revealred they had just gone down the path of ‘more is better’., similar with Orange, an E-bike-lite version of a Stage 5 for instance would make a lot more sense that those monstrous things they have come up with so far.

    kelvin
    Full Member

    I was playing with the custom options for the Rise on Orbea’s website last night… I think they’re on the right path with this one. Would be my first choice.. but they’re selling now for delivery next year… with some size/build options already sold out. Hotcakes.

    joebristol
    Full Member

    Don’t Lapierre have a full sus with the lightweight (for an e-bike) / lower power motor setup? Seems like a good idea to me – trying to make something as close to a normal weight mtb but with a little ebike boost for when you’re struggling or on a big day out.

    craig5
    Full Member

    The Orbea and levo SL look nice, but its the Forestal Syrion thats the one to get excited about.

    https://forestal.com/en/products/siryon

    kelron
    Full Member

    I’ve demoed a Lapierre Zesty with the Fazua system. Honestly found it a bit disappointing riding back to back with more powerful bikes, but it might be what you’re looking for.

    I think it achieves what it’s designed to do – feel like an unpowered bike but give you some extra boost uphill. Even with the motor in it’s not absurdly heavy and there’s no friction with it turned off, plus it’s all removable which brings the weight down to a regular bike.

    The issue for me was not having the power available took away some of the fun of an ebike. It’s obviously easier and quicker uphill than an unpowered bike, but you can’t just stamp on the pedals and surge forward.

    Hob-Nob
    Free Member

    I have a full fat eeb (Trek Rail) which whilst being full fat, is still ‘reasonably’ light at 20kg. I tend to only ever ride it in Eco or Tour – I don’t need/want the extra power, but I do like it with 170/168mm travel & reasonably sorted geometry.

    The Levo SL concept is brilliant, that’s all I need in an eeb, but the bike industry has done the classic thing of wrapping it up in a package that’s currently rubbish. If they built it in my Rail package, then it would be fantastic. I don’t want a half fat eeb that’s got out of date XC geometry though. The other thing is, the headline weight is the 11k one, with Fox 34’s, useless tyres & unerpowered, but light brakes. By the time you put a decent fork & tyres on it, it’s nearly 20kg anyway.

    The new Orbea is certainly an improvement there, buts it’s still a bit XC for me – but the concept of what’s happening with this sort of bike is where my future of eeb life is.

    Just waiting for a few new rumoured bikes to come out that tick more of my boxes before I flog the Rail & jump into something else 🙂

    sillysilly
    Full Member

    I rode the Pivot / Shimano combo and agree. Once the weight is down in a proper enduro rig things will get very interesting. I think gnarly ups may become a thing and I’ll be able to hit those gaps after a sharp blind turn…

    Looking at the pace of innovation in the ebike category I think middle age may be quite fun 😂. Next step, the Tesla ebike with no gears…

    snotrag
    Full Member

    I’ve seen that argument about weight, however its relative, surely, and thats what matters.

    Yes, a Levo SL Alloy comp weighs more than a Levo SL S-works – but I bet it still weighs a lot less than a regular Levo Alloy Comp. Just as my Alloy built Santa Cruz Hightower with GX weighs more than a full Carbon CC with loads of pro kit draped over it.

    I do hope, and expect, that over the next year theres a few more bikes released in this vein definitely.

    julians
    Free Member

    hob nob has it right – the orbea is a ~20kg bike when its got less XC oriented parts on it, which is not much lighter than the current crop of full fat bikes (the lightest of which are 21-22kg) , which shouldnt be a surprise because the core technology of an ebike has not really changed much in terms of the weight of the motor and battery.

    Its all moving in the right direction though, but this is not a massive leap.

    julians
    Free Member

    Also – the ability to absolutely fly uphill with little effort that a full fat ebike gives you is brilliant , even if you dont use it all the time, its great to have it available to you to turn a ride into a self shuttled ride. I’m not sure I’d want an ebike that couldnt do that- maybe the orbea can still do that – in which case thats great.

    iainc
    Full Member

    Great to see the Orbea being launched and looking forward to some head to head reviews with the SL.

    I have a few heart problems and bought an Orbea Wild FS last year, which i promptly fell off and wrecked my shoulder. The short time on it showed it to be quite a heavy handful for an old mincer like me. After 9 months and various surgeries i was able to get back on a bike earlier this summer, sold the Orbea and bought a Levo SL.

    For me, it is the perfect setup – enough assist to help out my HR spikes that I need to avoid, yet feels like a regular bike to ride, to lift over gates, to put in the car, albeit a heavy one.. As with all ebikes, the assist tapers off at 15mph, so when rolling along on flattish stuff, or down the way, it’s largely pedal power only, at which stage it really doesn’t feel any different to a non ebike.

    daveylad
    Free Member

    Different types of bikes for riders with different requirements. All good.
    I wouldn’t give up my 25kg kenevo for anything though, by far the best bike I have ever owned.

    mos
    Full Member

    My dad was going to get an e-zesty, but after i showed him the reviews of the new s-works levo (not the sl) he plumped for that & ended up hating it. Too much of a lump for a lean guy in his 70’s & never went below 50% on the battery so ended up flogging it. He now has en e-zesty & loves it.
    On the other hand my mate has a levo (again, not the sl) & absolutely loves it, he is a bit heftier than my dad so maybe benefits from the extra power a bit more.

    Jamze
    Full Member

    Wonder why they decided to create bespoke 60 Nm firmware for that Orbea? The Shimano is pretty customisable anyway – seems to remove a bit of flexibility? You might want a full-fat blast for an hour now and again?

    julians
    Free Member

    Wonder why they decided to create bespoke 60 Nm firmware for that Orbea? The Shimano is pretty customisable anyway – seems to remove a bit of flexibility? You might want a full-fat blast for an hour now and again?

    My theory is that to get the battery either lightweight or of the form factor they wanted, they had to go with a battery configuration that cant provide enough electric current to allow the full 85nm torque that the motor is capable of.

    Like you say why would you artificially limit the peak torque available if the battery and motor could provide it? yes, the battery would empty quicly with only 375 wh available, but you just make it clear in the instructions that this will happen if you put it in full fat mode, then your bike is providing the best of both worlds, the full fat emtb experience when you want it (and with the range extender battery fitted will be exactly the same range as a regular full fat bike but with 2kg less weight), or the lite ebike experience when you want that.

    That would be a proper win:win, but they havent done it, so it must be because the bike cant do it.

    doomanic
    Full Member

    so it must be because the bike cant do it.

    I would be very surprised if this is the case. The motor hardware is the same and I doubt they’d use thinner cables to save weight and the battery uses 21700 cells, the same as the Levo and Decoy, so are definitely capable of full power.

    IMHO it’s been done to push the long range characteristics and also so it doesn’t tread on the Wild FS’s toes.

    OwenP
    Full Member

    I’ve got the Kinesis hardtail (also confusingly called the Rise) with a Fazua motor, I’m with HobNob on this. The bike is a hardtail, but a “hardcore” hardtail, I wouldn’t really want an XC emtb so the lightweight motors need to branch out from that category. From my experience there’s plenty of boost from lightweight systems to get back up the hill. If more power was always better, folk would ride all the time in the “turbo” setting or whatever, but I don’t think most people do.

    I don’t think they’ll appeal to the sort of rider who “chips” their bike to not have a speed cut off, not sure how widespread that is now.

    Jamze
    Full Member

    When I first read about it, I assumed it just came preloaded with some customised modes with a lower max torque, but it says the firmware is bespoke, has different characteristics.

    so it must be because the bike cant do it.

    Just watched a couple of reviews, one said they could spec a lighter transmission due to the lower torque, but that doesn’t ring true. Plenty of full-fat bikes running XTR.

    Does look nice though.

    kelvin
    Full Member

    Plenty of full-fat bikes running XTR

    How long does it last?

    intheborders
    Free Member

    I demo’d the Spesh at Glentress.

    Just didn’t have the power that a full-fat eBike has.

    It was said to me it’s aimed at unfit folk who want to ride with their fitter non-eBike mates.

    For that, it’ll do the job, but if I was after an eBike I’d want a full power one.

    Jamze
    Full Member

    How long does it last?

    Not as long obviously 🙂 I get their point, but don’t think that’s the primary reason. It does seem this motor firmware rides differently, more natural.

    doug_basqueMTB.com
    Full Member

    Va Guys, maybe I can answer some about the Rise. Maybe not but I’ll try. I know it’s been a difficult launch because all the journalists can’t come to Orbea as normal to talk about all the details over a couple of riding days. I’m only a guide at the launch, I organize the locations and trails and safety but I did sit in on the presentations.

    Why the custom firmware? It’s how the motor interacts with the rider. They did a lot of work, first to convince shimano to work with them and then to get what they wanted. Some funny stories there. Basically it was removing lag and making the bike match the rider input, so the motor provides analogue assistance, instead of more digital. It is meant to feel natural, and for me it does. There is so little drag when you spin the cranks, the shimano guy said less than a XT bottom bracket! Also reduce noise, they did a lot of work in that area.

    The Rise with proper components isn’t 20kg!! We had one on the launch that was perfecto, 36’s 2,4 Exo tyres, XT and it certainly wasn’t close to 20kg!! It was between 17 and 18.

    Yes, there is a saving because they don’t need 203mm rotors and ebike chains, forks etc. since the bike isn’t as powerful. The ebikes I’ve used use plenty of beefed up components.

    Apparently 80% of ebikes use eco most! I don’t know who those lunatics are, not me! When I have a 25kg ebike I want turbo! Interestingly the Rise with turbo feels more like a traditional ebike. Sort of. With the Rise I like Eco in the morning when I’m fresh and then I gradually go up the modes as I get more tired! Riding with friends normal bikes eco is perfect if you’re a bit slower than your mates. With ebikes you need trail and sweat or Boost.

    The Rise concept is very different to the Spesh. One is a lightweight ebike with less power but Orbea wanted to go a different route. It’s subtle but the difference is important and key to understanding the bike.

    Why 60nm vs 85nn, I honestly don’t know. During the presentation the 60nm was talked about and how it was felt to be right for the feel of the bike. It’s true I’ve not found it underpowered despite being a bit heavier than normal just now (95kg with all my riding gear!) I can ask for more details if people are interested?

    Steve Jones over on ebike network or whatever it’s called is really good. You can see his years of experience! He speak so much sense. I think Stw are getting one too, that’ll be good.

    I’m happy to answer questions if it’s wanted and I’m not overstepping any boundaries. I’m friends with Orbea guys so I’m not going to give X is better than Y. Also I don’t work there but I can ask people for answers. Or not! Ask me if you’d like anything, if not I’ll leave the thread alone 🙂

    Interestingly I’ve got the wildFS and ride it a fair bit. It’s just so different to the Rise. I honestly find it easier to compare the Rise to the Occam. I don’t like how the Wild descends on natural trails, it’s big and heavy and stuck to the ground / line. I can bunny hop it but I’d be busting a nut. The Rise feels just like the Occam. I also prefer the physical side with the rise, you get tired legs as well vs the upper body workout of the Wild.

    julians
    Free Member

    Thanks Doug – appreciate your input on this – interesting stuff

    Wonder why this didnt use the rallon as the base bike rather than the occam – I guess they did a load of research to work out what will sell and an e-occam was the answer.

    kelvin
    Full Member

    rides differently, more natural

    Well.. that… and how neat the bike looks… and the sorted geom, is what appeals to me. Looking to get one for my other half… the first off brand bike for us since Cotic began! She’s got CFS… still cycles a bit… but some assistance is now needed.

    Kamakazie
    Full Member

    This is the first eBike that interested me. I’m on the lighter side and the bigger eBikes just seem like a bit of a handful for the way I like to ride.

    I’d still like a slacker HA but otherwise geo looks pretty good for an aggressive allrounder. Obviously I’d spec it for a bit of a heavier all-round build but there’s clearly options. Seems to me like it’s moving in the right direction.

    doug_basqueMTB.com
    Full Member

    I think the Rallon ebike is the Wild. The Rallon is a 170mm beast! The Occam is the 150mm “trail” bike so I guess was more natural for this bike.

    kelvin, people don’t notice it’s an ebike! The prototype I rode for a while in July was dark, so the black motor was invisible almost. I had some fun with people then!

    cheers_drive
    Full Member

    I’ve only ridden one ebike before, a Trek Rail which I rode at a couple of Welsh trail centres. Going stupid fast up steep hills was fun for a bit but waiting for my fast but my naturally powered mate got boring after a while so I switched to eco so we could ride together. Ultimately that’s all I want, assistance to take me to a fast human level not 15mph whatever the terrain. For this reason the Rise will be perfect for many people. I’d get one if I wasn’t living in the flatlands.

    argee
    Full Member

    Looks good (the orbea), if i was in the market for a bike to do miles on and days out, then this could be a good option, but as i am now, i enjoy enduro, of that i prefer flow stuff, so jumps and drops, so lots of heavy landings and abuse due to lack of rider ability!

    I could drop weight on my ebike through tyres (2.8 supergravity’s), wheels (more than 2kg) and so on, but that would more than likely end with damage, but if i was to do a lot of the stuff the rise does, i think i’d feel a bit overbiked on my current e-reign, as others have said, i barely use anything more than eco and eco+, think that’s 100% and 175% assist, the other setting (3 to 5) are just redundant, even auto mode which selects the appropriate level is too much for me, i feel like i’m not really doing anything, which is a bit weird at times, but that’s just personal for me, as i like to split my time between analogue and digital bikes, and learnt my lesson on getting a little too ebike friendly, then hitting an uphill on the normal bike and almost developing asthma by the time i’m halfway up!

    doomanic
    Full Member

    For people (like me) who’d be interested in something a little more gnar, may I introduce…

    https://www.rotwild.com/bikes-stuff/bikes/enduro/re375/pro/

    How about that then? The 63.5deg HA is slacker than my work ethic!

    enmac
    Full Member

    Pre-lockdown, I test road a few ebikes – Spesh Levo and SL, Trek Rail, Focus Jam and Lapiere Ezesty. A few weeks ago I bought the Levo SL, for me it was the best compromise of power vs feel. I hardly used the turbo mode on the full fat bikes and didn’t want to lose my fitness for when I ride with my non e-bike owning mates. I love the SL, it gives enough support that you can do 2 or 3 times as much climbing as you would normally but still feel like a conventional mtb on the descents. Yes, the ability to zoom up tricky climbs on a full-fat ebike is a lot of fun, but it’s not really the reason why I go mountain biking.

    They are expensive but you don’t need to buy the top of the range to get a decent weight. I bought the Comp carbon, which is not very well specced but with a few choice upgrades it now weighs 17.3 kg (38lbs), I sold the SRAM NX groupset for £150 and replaced it with Shimano XT for about £300, I paid about £700 for a set of carbon wheels (LB rims and DT Swiss 350 hubs), I hope to sell the Roval wheels for about £300 and I added a set of carbon bars.

    I would definitely have considered the Orbea, although the stories of the rattling noise made by the shimano EP8 motor would be a concern.

    nicknameless
    Free Member

    I’ve also just bought a Levo SL comp carbon and absolutely loving it. It’s a stumpjumper with a helping hand. Still knackered after riding it and it rides very much like a non e trail bike. If you want to do longer rides (or shorter ones faster), but don’t want to do it on a motorbike it is ideal. Battery and range is impressive with the 35nm motor as well.

    With the orbea being 60nm and only slightly more capacity batttery than the SL then I would expect it will chew through that battery pretty quickly if you use all the assistance. You then will always need to ride with the range extender which negates some of the headline weight savings I would expect. TBH I don’t get the concept unless I am wrong about the range with the internal battery.

    OwenP
    Full Member

    TBH I don’t get the concept unless I am wrong about the range with the internal battery.

    Well yeah I think that’s an understandable point of view. My Fazua motor has 60nm and only a 250wh battery, if I decided to head out for a big day in the lakes and set it in it’s highest support mode, the battery would be done in an hour! But I can ride it nearly all day if I’m careful, in the South East where I live.

    So I guess that bikes like the SL force users to be economical by limiting some motor factors, others chase the more power/more battery/more weight and others, like Fazua or the Orbea, let you go for a full-on blast for a short period OR allow you to ride economically for more battery life, but you have to be disciplined and accept the limitations. Choices opening up I guess.

    enmac
    Full Member

    I reckon with my SL I can get 1000m of climbing on Turbo, 1500m on Trail and 2000m on Eco. Add 50% on top of that with the range extender battery. Any long flat sections will reduce these numbers, although I live in the NE of Scotland and where the riding tends to be either up or down. This gives you a lot of scope to vary the amount and type of riding you do. I am finding I am getting tired just from the length of time on the bike rather than the amount of climbing I’m doing.

Viewing 33 posts - 1 through 33 (of 33 total)

The topic ‘E-bike ‘lite’. Levo SL, Orbea Rise RS etc’ is closed to new replies.

Search the forum using the power of Google

Thanks for popping by - why not stay a while?IT'S FREE

Sign up as a Singletrack Member and you can leave comments on stories, use the classified ads, and post in our forums, do quizzes and more.

Join us, join in, it’s free, and fun.