Master OTS is doing his bronze expedition today and tomorrow after completing all the other bits.
All the kids in his group are from a similar demographic – white middle class that will go on to university to do STEM/Law/Medicine etc.
There are however kids at the school who haven’t had the advantages that ours have, who aren’t engaged / taking part.
Of course the theory is that it looks good on the CV, but Master OTS and his peers have learned very little from it and the ones who could perhaps benefit more haven’t been properly engaged.
What’s broken and how can it be fixed?

Edit – or is it that his school is just rubbish at including the kids that would benefit most?

There are costs involved which some families might struggle with i guess (£22 plus fees the school might charge for trips then there is kit on top of that).

I’ve got Bronze and Silver and almost completed gold (didn’t do residential and organiser left the school with the access to the system and I needed to get everything re-signed off and lost interest/got too old) and have had 3 interviewers laugh that I had it on my CV, friends with bronze and silver have has similar experiences unless they’ve completed gold which seems to be slightly more respected. Yes at the time I was an engineering graduate with a years industry experience but I felt they almost saw it as a negative/”try hard” type thing. Didn’t help/hinder my job hunting though as got a Job with the first interview anyway.

As for learning anything – not a bit, I was an outdoorsy scout already and had already done multiple 3/4+ day “expedition” type walks or trips before starting it so for me it was a bit of fun with a few mates. As for the skill/volunteering/sport side our school was slightly too lax in checking so I know a lot of people who just got their neighbour to sign it of, which tbh probably doesn’t help with the reputation of it!

Having be out on a DofE bronze expedition this weekend.
It still seems pretty relevant for the kids.
e.g. A bit of adventure, planning, self sufficiency, away from their mobiles for 24h. Some having never camped before.
Lots of scope for developing life skills such as navigation etc.
Also soft skills such as team work, actually communicating with each other, problem solving, positive attitude etc.
Mixed backgrounds on ours but yes many are from more affluent families but they do tend to get more involved in everything. Kit to borrow so not too much cost.
Speaking to the young people afterwards most of them had a good time and saw value in it.

Truthfully, having run it for 17years, I’m not sure it is relevant as it is at the moment. There are always stand outs but in the main its, in my experience, those that would do stuff anyway.

I’m stopping this year as I’m not experienced enough on the hills, apparently.

YH PM geoff .

If I see it on a cv all I look for is Gold. Shows serious long term commitment IMHO. Never really hear of successful school programmes (everybody seems to drop out, all about costs, teacher leaves etc).
I did it with scouts. It was great – but our scout leader was an assessor with DoE so we had lots of advantages!

Too many schools do too much to “help” the students, in my opinion devaluing it.

scout leader was an assessor with DoE so we had lots of advantages!

It’s pretty hard to be bad enough to do the training as a trainer to not be an assessor too.

I’m torn on DofE. I ran it for a few years and found the paperwork and admin totally off putting. A significant number of kids never got the award as they didn’t get the other non expedition elements signed off. The ones that did were normally doing the activities anyway so the award didn’t enhance their lives especially. These days I would rather expend energy helping kids get worthwhile outdoor activities free of the regional admin nause of the local operating authority and of the other sections.

It might help on UCAS applications and I’d look favourably upon it for an intern/placement but I’m not sure I’d give it much kudos for a graduate. By the time you’ve left university you’ve had more opportunities to show your skills.

It shows a certain amount of initiative and positive attitude. Yes it can be spoon fed but you’re still doing better than someone who has done nothing beyond the bare minimum. Pretty much what I look for in a team member. You don’t just want someone that will be adequate, you want someone that will get involved and add something, ideally beyond what they are instructed to do. DofE isn’t the only way for youngsters to demonstrate this. Sport at a decent level, scouts (guides etc.), charity work, a hobby that requires effort (e.g. music) would all look good.

All the kids in his group are from a similar demographic – white middle class that will go on to university to do STEM/Law/Medicine etc.

DoE has always been good at attracting that demographic – e.g. the private schools do a great job of churning their pupils through the scheme.

Of course the theory is that it looks good on the CV, but Master OTS and his peers have learned very little from it and the ones who could perhaps benefit more haven’t been properly engaged.

Actually the reason it “looks good on a CV” is because not everyone does it and you need a little mental aptitude and determination to actually get it done (not necessarily surviving a load of blisters and pouring rain – but just sticking to volunteering weekly, or learning a new skill that nobody forces you to). Even at Bronze level there are many opportunities to not bother your arse and not get there in the end. I suspect that the people who get the most out of it are most likely to be the ones who go on to do silver, and gold so it is partially self selecting for the people who wouldn’t access those experiences naturally. Doing it for your CV is probably the worst reason to do it (even worse than “all my mates were doing it”), unless of course you are trying to get into a very competitive course up against other students who have all done it!

I still think it is a useful thing for someone at 16-22 to put on their CV. It provides an opportunity to open a conversation about something they are passionate about (which is always good especially with young people who aren’t very experienced in interview situations) but also means they can talk about / discuss challenges they have overcome, working in groups etc. Once someone has actually got real work experience it may be less relevant (certainly at Bronze/Silver level).

I think you underestimate how much Master OTS will have learned. Master Poly has just done his and if you ask him what he learned it would be specific skills about cooking outdoors and preparation/planning. But if you ask what surprised him most, he tells you about the people he expected to be difficult actually being responsible, and how people coped with problems. There’s a moment on a good DoE programme where you think “shit if something goes wrong here we have to sort it ourselves”.

Very few 15 yr olds in this day will have ever camped overnight on their own without adult supervision telling them what to do. I’d actually say this is even more of a need in today’s moly-coddling cotton wool society than it was 20, 30, 40 years ago. Indeed particularly those spoiled middle class brats have often had mummy or daddy (or the au pair!) run around after them taking them here, there and everywhere, and who are a smartphone tap away from an Uber/Dominoes/Netflix.

What’s broken and how can it be fixed?
Edit – or is it that his school is just rubbish at including the kids that would benefit most?

I wouldn’t necessarily say anything is broken. If I was to criticise anything it would be that the requirements seem to have slightly softened, and our risk averse nature means we are reluctant to let them out of sight (but that may be “it wasn’t like that in my day” perspective). There is a balance though between encouraging more people to start and just giving them out to everyone for turning up a few times. It probably feels about right at the moment.

If you want to encourage him to get the most out of it, then when he gets to picking the skills, physical and volunteering sections perhaps steer him away from the things he was probably going to do anyway and try something a bit different. If you want to encourage the school to engage a wider audience then perhaps talk to them about how you can help (there’s virtually no adult who couldn’t provide some sort of support / advice at some stage), although it may be that those you think are missing out are accessing through other routes – like scouts etc. Often the barrier to involving more young people, and especially some of those less naturally inclined to step forward, is that you need more volunteers to coordinate them, train them, scrounge equipment etc. In some schools those who might benefit most, might be those who don’t engage as positively with teachers normally.

Last couple of years my wife has volunteered / acted as support carer for various DofE groups that are taking SfL (Support for Learning) kids through DofE bronze and I think silver – or aiming to silver at least. Very hard work but rewarding to see these kids achieve something that in normal scenarios they just wouldn’t have accomplished. From memory, they are often accompanied by a regular DofE group that are acting as buddies and so getting their fix for volunteering / support.

Both our children have gone through DofE B/S/G route – I’m pretty sure elder one wouldn’t be the rounded person he is today had he not had these experiences. For younger one, it’s confirmed a lot of stuff about working with others! (and the lengths parents will push their kids to ‘do’ DofE, while assessors are wary of not signing off individuals, so life lessons maybe but not in way its intended).

OP. I was out in the woods yesterday with our MTB group and there were loads of DoE groups around including many from varied backgrounds (Muslim girls in veils etc) so the demographic comments seem a bit off

I have a different perspectives on this.
As an event director at my local parkrun, we have 3 or 4 DofE volunteers with us most week and, so far they have all been awesome. All have really grown as people, from shy teenagers to people who really help lead the event.

Not sure on the long term benefits, but ours have been brilliant.

I’m an expedition leader/organiser and Gold Assessor. I have been for nearly two decades.

The commitment to volunteer, go to a sports club and learn a skill is remarkable. The effort to complete an exped, particularly at Silver and Gold, is to be applauded. What young people learn from the process is far more important than the certificate.

I’m seeing more and more young people come through who need the skills we teach them. Things like I would say over half the kids have never cooked before.

Very few have camped, or been left genuinely alone for a few hours – our Gold lot last year were upset when an external assessor wouldn’t leave them alone. On thier practice they had barely spoken to us.

Few have to pack thier own bag or keep an eye on thier own kit.

I do have an issue that so many, particularly schools (and mainly private schools from South) who skimp on the expedition, making it easier than it should be, in order that everyone passes. This is due to a few things – parental pressure to succeed, youth not resilient enough and not enough qualified volunteers to supervise.

I would argue that done well DofE is more needed now than ever.

DoE has always been good at attracting that demographic – e.g. the private schools do a great job of churning their pupils through the scheme

Yeah, because they’re mostly kids of parents who were not from that demographic and put themselves out to do things like DofE to improve their life chances so no surprise they encourage their kids to do it and other stuff like it because they know from experience the value of it.

As Matt says. I volunteer for a school that does Gold in canoes. We teach them to paddle, they do a practice Exped on Windermere and the actual Exped on lakes in Sweden, usually with a few portages between the lakes. Just on the Exped, you can see the change in them, particularly learning the need for teamwork.

I Think the OP raises a few different questions, maybe I’ll take a stab at 2 of them:

Is it worth it? Bugger how it looks on a CV, it’s an amazing experience. I look back on what we did through all three levels, and am just amazed that at 17 we did what we did. Taught me a huge amount.

Is it inclusive? Perhaps not as much as it should be, because, as above, it’s a bloody brilliant experience and everyone should be allowed to have a crack.

I would take a rather dim and suspect view of a recruiter who joked and laughed about someone having DofE Gold on A CV.

Bronze and Silver for me, I left school after first year in the 6th form so didn’t complete my gold. It never occurred to me that it was something you could put on a CV 🤔 All I know was doing it was the best time I ever had in school 😁😁. It’ll be a sad day if the scheme ever folds, as far as being inclusive, it’s available to anyone who cam be arsed to do it. Yes there is a cost but help is available for this.

New Bronze expedition rules have dumbed it down a lot. Regional coordinator was very keen on completion rates. Just like everything in education ruined by stats and league tables.

https://www.dofe.org/leaders/changes-to-the-bronze-expedition-section/what-are-the-changes/

I lead, co-ordinate and assess in a very mixed-background school.

OP – I think your question is about whether the school is running DofE as inclusively as it can. It’s a challenge that we’ve tried to address in our school – we definitely get kids towards the affluent end of the socioeconomic spectrum. Without writing a 10 page essay about it, it’s a really hard thing to do, because the barrier isn’t just the cost. I’d really love to have the time, energy and expertise to figure some of those problems out.

As for the ‘looks good on my CV’ thing. I really don’t care how it looks on a CV. All the young people that I’ve seen on their DofE journey have learned something and had some profound experiences. I’m really proud of what they’ve all achieved.

On some hand, I think anything is a good thing if it gives children positive experiences they learn from.

On the other hand, as a regular recruiter of graduate employees either through assessment centres or directly, I have never taken any notice of DofE awards.

It’s an interesting one. I did all the expeditions with friends who were doing it but never did any of the other bits as I was too busy with other sports at a competitive level.

Loved the expeditions and would agree that it’s much more important what kids get out of it than what it looks like on a cv. I didn’t have it when trying to get into Vet school and it didn’t appear to hold me back either in selection or at interview. However I think the volunteering etc is useful for exposing kids to things outside their often very narrow norm.

Certainly not something I pay any attention to when looking at cv’s for graduates. I’m more interested in knowing if they have ever had to work before.

If my kids want to do it themselves il support them but wouldn’t push them to do it.

Certainly not something I pay any attention to when looking at cv’s for graduates. I’m more interested in knowing if they have ever had to work before.

Is 6-12months volunteering for a couple of hours a week not the same as work?

If someone has Gold, they’ve done 2.5years of volunteering and north of 4 years organising, learning and turning up on time with the right kit and attitude.

was it ever relevant? certainly not for the path I choose/went down. Can’t say I’d care if someone had done it or not.

It all forms part of a picture.

If I was looking at a teenagers CV I’d be more inclined to pick the one with DoE rather than an otherwise identical one.

I’d give an automatic interview to anyone who had a Boys Brigade Queens Badge or a Girls Brigade Queens Award , because I know the level of work and commitment that goes into it  (or the equivalent Scouting qualification if there is one.)

I think part of the issue in comparing the volunteering to work is that the type and quantity of volunteering is hidden inside the DofE award.

I’m looking at graduates and mostly interested in their experience in the job they are going to do and what work they may have done between terms. The DofE award will have been at least 5 or 6 years previous and is less relevant at that time.

I’m looking at graduates

It’s not just graduates who apply for jobs though.

Not many graduates applied for the apprentice painter positions we were advertising recently.

For school leavers who have no real work history something like the DoE can be a good lever to get on the first rung of an industry.

Yeah, because they’re mostly kids of parents who were not from that demographic and put themselves out to do things like DofE to improve their life chances so no surprise they encourage their kids to do it and other stuff like it because they know from experience the value of it.

I’m not sure I agree with that? I wonder if its really true that most kids at private school are not from parents who are “white middle class that [went] to university to do STEM/Law/Medicine etc.” but I wouldn’t be surprised if a child is more likely to sign up / complete DoE if their parents had done it or something similar themselves.

Certainly not something I pay any attention to when looking at cv’s for graduates. I’m more interested in knowing if they have ever had to work before.

In my experience, both as a parent and an employer, it is increasingly less common to see school leavers who have worked (and when I have seen it there is often a family connection). By the time they become graduates, it is more common for them to have had some sort of part time or summer job, but there is even a catch 22 of no experience with getting those jobs, or the best ones at least, even with unpaid internships; avoiding the useless candidates is important – so it might not be the difference that gets you your first permanent post, but it might be the thing that gets you the job that means you’ll even look at their cv for the graduate role.

I’m looking at graduates and mostly interested in their experience in the job they are going to do and what work they may have done between terms. The DofE award will have been at least 5 or 6 years previous and is less relevant at that time.

Not necessarily – you can complete your award up until 25. Whilst many try to squeeze it in at School, lots of Uni’s, colleges will have a “gold group”. Those who particularly appreciated what it brought might stay involved to help the next generation through. If I read between the lines and you are a vet and presumably hiring vets (or vet nurses) etc – then plenty of opportunity for volunteering thats relevant in animal sanctuaries etc, which might be more meaningful to you than their 2 nights a week behind the bar in the local pub? But even if the volunteering is something totally different (e.g. trail building) then turning up to do it without getting beer tokens is something some employers value. What I see, is that people who volunteer (whether as part of DOE or otherwise) are more likely in future to just do things because its the right thing to do, rather than say, “well thats not what I’m paid to do”.

I’d give an automatic interview to anyone who had a Boys Brigade Queens Badge or a Girls Brigade Queens Award , because I know the level of work and commitment that goes into it (or the equivalent Scouting qualification if there is one.)

There is – unsurprisingly called Queen Scout Award. Its like a Gold DOE with extra bits.

That’s a shame a practice expedition is no longer a bronze requirement. Seems like that’s the level where you need a practice most?

Whilst I was a very typical white middle class kid – I never would have done anything like go off on a two day hike and overnight camp like I got to experience on DofE.

There is a cost barrier – unless the school has rucksacks, tents, stoves and sleeping bags to lend.

That’s a shame a practice expedition is no longer a bronze requirement. Seems like that’s the level where you need a practice most?

I have to say I thought the same, and felt it was “cheating” a bit. However having seen it used in action and remembering how it was in reality 25 or so years ago, I’m more open to the idea; I suspect many people had such horrible experiences on their practice they never did the full thing. Hopefully by using that time in a more constructive training, coaching setting then we can avoid making people trudge in the rain carrying far too much stuff in ill fitting boots for two days because it is character building. I’m more sceptical about allowing the supervisor and assessor (who is probably also the “group leader”) to sign off -although I’m sure there was always a bit of I’ll do yours if you do mine.

As a parent of a daughter that just completed her silver practice on Exmoor last weekend, I categorically agree with Matt and the other assessors that have commented. Its benefits go far beyond having a tick on your CV. Even talking with her in the car on the way back, I could see how she had grown within herself.

My daughter is doing it because its a great experience with friends and I’m content to facilitate it because its a great opportunity for her to organise herself, learn about sustained, planned work over longer periods of time, and to put her in a situation where she is dependent on herself outside of adult supervision. These are all things that modern kids have far less opportunity to experience in sufficient abundance before becoming adults, but desperately need as adults. My main objective with her doing it is to grow in this manner. I don’t really care if she doesn’t put it on her CV.

Oh, and the expedition is genuinely fun. Its an opportunity that I declined as a school kid, and deeply regret. I mean, who wouldn’t want to spend time in the beautiful places of the world, and test themselves a little at the same time? I’m still doing that on a bike 29 years after I left school.

DezBjr did his last year. Plenty of things he wouldn’t have experienced otherwise and in my view, any healthy activity which gets him away from the XBox (not so much a problem lately) and the phone has got to be a good thing.
His group was very varied, and they did do a practice expedition.
Funnily enough we were up at QECP for a ride the other week and saw some DofE kids – he said “How come they do their expedition at QE? It’s not wilderness!” – his group did their’s in the New Forest 😆
Anyway, great experience, something which I wasn’t able to do at school due to parental financial difficulties, so good on the boy for getting in there and completing it.
Now, if those damn teachers would get their fingers out and sign off his activities he may get a certificate!

It’s a bit sad to think that things only exist to get you a job.

I’d say it’s more relevant now than it was 30 years ago. 30 years ago I was surrounded by opportunities to do these things. I’d say my son had less options. He did bronze and silver expeditions. Via me he has had Loads of access to outdoor stuff. But the expeditions benefited from being independent of me. The fact that the scheme let’s teenagers light a Trangia unsupervised is a triumph. My college runs it. Most kids who go have never seen a mountain before.

@ampthill – Totally agree.

*Hopefully by using that time in a more constructive training, coaching setting then we can avoid making people trudge in the rain carrying far too much stuff in ill fitting boots for two days because it is character building*

Oh, I didn’t realise you were on my bronze practice 😂

Now, if those damn teachers would get their fingers out and sign off his activities he may get a certificate!

Ah, there is another skill it teaches. You will actually have to go and talk to an adult, ask them to sign something off and possibly sit down and have discussion about where the gaps are and how you will deal with them. Failing to do that is why my brother never got his – he was waiting for the assessor to take the lead.

Oh, I didn’t realise you were on my bronze practice

maybe kittyr – were you a whinging girl, and did I carry a load of your stuff in the mistaken hope that you would be eternally grateful and throw yourself at me…

Quick question to those who are involved,

My 14 yeah old brother just passed his Bronze, he has access to my camping gear and the result is lots of the stuff he used is smaller and lighter than the average D of E participant. I was surprised when my dad told me his only feedback was that his backpack was too small!

Why does this matter if he is carrying all the required equipment?

I was surprised when my dad told me his only feedback was that his backpack was too small!

You’re supposed to leave additional room to carry the kit of whingeing girls* that you’re trying to cop off with.

* Does not tally with my 15 year old daughters experience. When she did her Bronze all the boys were, according to her, totally useless, constantly complained and had clearly never had to look after themselves for a minute in their entire lives.