Viewing 40 posts - 1 through 40 (of 63 total)
  • Dual crown enduro – the future or OTT and marketing
  • Premier Icon ayjaydoubleyou
    Free Member

    https://singletrackworld.com/2021/07/bike-check-joe-connells-orange-stage-6-with-prototype-dual-crown-formula-fork/

    Will we see this more over the coming years? As the big two have just released the 38/Zeb last year I can see them wanting to avoid it, but if it is actually better will sponsored pros end up on modded Boxxers and 40s?

    Or are Formula just playing to the PB comment section to sell to punters with more money than skill?

    Premier Icon DickBarton
    Full Member

    I suspect more manufacturers will release dual crown forks, I reckon (and I think others who are more clued up on this than me have also suggested) that the amount of travel on a front fork now that can be had, seems to cry out for a dual-crown as there is so much flex in the system now – anything over 150mm is my uneducated thinking…I think Chris Porter has suggested anything over 160mm…

    One of the issues with earlier dual-crowns was the limited steering, I’m guessing that with geometry tweaks of today, this would be less of an issue perhaps?

    Premier Icon Trimix
    Free Member

    Marketing will be able to sell anything and manufactures need to shift stuff to make profit. What better way than to tell you that you need the next best thing and the next best thing of course is bigger, longer, more rad. (They wont mention it will be heavier)

    I’ve been sucked into the more travel = better riding in the past. But now realise that I’m no Gee Atherton, so 140-160 is more than enough. I can still pedal it to the top and then plummet down again.

    For normal riders (even adventurous ones) I reckon the average Enduro bike with modern geometry and good kit is far more capable that the riders ever need. They can all handle DH tracks now. Sure a WC DH track you will need a proper DH bike, but most of us wont be riding one of those.

    Also I wonder the if the extra weight may mean you need an uplift, then why not just get a full on DH bike ?

    Premier Icon dc1988
    Free Member

    I think other brands will follow but I don’t see it replacing current single crown models, it’s probably more likely to be a race only sort of thing as I don’t see it as necessary for the average rider. I know I wouldn’t want dual crown even if it was the same weight as a single crown fork

    Premier Icon tetrode
    Full Member

    They wont mention it will be heavier

    it’s lighter than a single crown Zeb

    Premier Icon saynotoslomo
    Free Member

    Dual crown forks make total sense to me, especially as formula have shown they can make one relatively light weight. Although I suppose all that extra machining is bound to cost a chunk more than the usual cast/forged(?) single crown

    I think the fact that World Cup downhillers are still racing on RockShox forks with 35mm stanchions shows that endlessly increasing stanchion diameter isn’t the only way to achieve a desired stiffness

    Make your stanchions as thick as you like, the assembly’s only as stiff as the weakest link which is surely the press fit interface between the steerer and the crown? Which also happens to be the area with the largest bending moment acting on it

    Looking at geometry as well, you’ll usually get an extra ~10mm of travel from a dual crown fork than a single crown with equivalent axle to crown measurement. More travel is more GOODNESS surely?!

    Premier Icon sharkattack
    Free Member

    Didn’t we just do a big thread on this? I made my feeling known but can’t be bothered to type it up again.

    Basically, I think single crown forks have gone a generation too far and there’s nowhere else to go. Dual crowns from Fox and Rock Shox are surely inevitable.

    Premier Icon Sui
    Free Member

    marketing will be king – all you people on 27.5, 29ers, plastic, eebs – dual crown back once again..

    Premier Icon Trimix
    Free Member

    Inevitable is not equal to better, though.

    Premier Icon kelvin
    Full Member

    Didn’t we just do a big thread on this?

    Pretty sure we did. I posted some Trimnell fork photos, for people thinking lack of a steerer on triple crowns was a new thing.

    Premier Icon cookeaa
    Full Member

    Didn’t we just do a big thread on this?

    Yup, opinions were shared and disagreement ensued…

    Like it or now Dual crowns will be the next “reinvented old new thing”
    Fast forward a decade and it’ll be “have you seen these amazing new single crown forks?!?!!”

    I’ve owned Boxxers thanks, they were great for what I was using them for, but I’m not really doing DH any more and recent single crowns are more than up to general trail riding and the odd uplift day. Plus I don’t really miss trying to sell frames with those two tell tale dents just behind the head tube…
    But I’m sure everyone’s Carbon dandyhorses will survive the coming fork fad completely unscathed*…

    (*this is Sarcasm).

    Premier Icon sharkattack
    Free Member

    Inevitable is not equal to better, though.

    Welcome to the bike industry. Come here often?

    marketing will be king

    Yep. But I actually think we should have switched to dual crowns rather than the latest generation of giant single crowns which seem another step in the wrong direction to me.

    Premier Icon squirrelking
    Free Member

    Bindun as said.

    Dual crowns don’t need as big a stanchion since they dont have to be as stiff meaning they can be lighter. I’m wondering what I could do with some 170mm 32 Super T’s, probably a fair amount since time has proven you don’t need a coil in each leg or two rebound controllers. Plus Stratos proved (if nothing else) that you can make a crown with decent clearance.

    Plus I don’t really miss trying to sell frames with those two tell tale dents just behind the head tube…

    Just about to sell one myself, my own stupid fault for putting the bumpers in the line of the hydroformed bit rather than a gusset. You learn that one quickly.

    Premier Icon ayjaydoubleyou
    Free Member

    One of the issues with earlier dual-crowns was the limited steering, I’m guessing that with geometry tweaks of today, this would be less of an issue perhaps?

    do longer wheelbases mean that a bigger bar turn is needed for the same cornering radius?

    plus fatter headtubes, and bigger stanchions I think it would be more of an issue, not less.

    Premier Icon goodgrief
    Free Member

    Having spent over a year riding a fox 40 I’m all for it, if done correctly like the Formula seems to be. It’s a tinkerer’s wet dream, basically adjustable everything, even offset if you’ve got the cash. What needs to be considered is the amount of stiffness. My journey with the (shortened) 40 ended when I realised it was too stiff laterally. I had a very plush set up (Avalanche damper) that would ping and deflect, also giving little feel in corners.

    Premier Icon Northwind
    Full Member

    squirrelking
    Free Member

    Dual crowns don’t need as big a stanchion since they dont have to be as stiff meaning they can be lighter.

    It’s not so simple though. Dual crowns add stiffness at the top, but they don’t add anything at the bottom, and they actually stress the bottom end more. So if you go with a weaker stanchion that’ll affect the whole fork not just the top.

    And tbh I reckon the bottom ends are pretty much built to be as strong as the bottom end wants to be, so I don’t think that dual crown will allow much if any weight saving there. Do you want a top end that’s as stiff as a boxxer and a bottom end that’s as stiff as a Pike? Probably not.

    In terms of weight and stiffness I suspect it’s mostly about how inefficient a single crown and steerer is- it’s got to be built very strong to deal with a long travel fork. These 38s etc are probably pushing the limits pretty hard.

    Premier Icon lightfighter762
    Full Member

    Whatever happened to the MRP Bartlett? Never ever saw a review. Anywhere. I used one on my supreme sx and it was great for 2018.

    Premier Icon kimbers
    Full Member

    It’ll be on ebikes then onto real bikes

    1.8 headtubes were just supposed to be for aesthetics on ebikes, but there’s a new regular bike with one now too

    Premier Icon Mat
    Full Member

    A bit of an aside but how do DC forks account for a variation in Head tube lengths? Do you just and stack to the bars or do you adjust the clamping height of the top crown? (And have excess stanchion sticking out)

    Premier Icon Tim
    Free Member

    Ref adjustment – bit of both

    Premier Icon squirrelking
    Free Member

    Depends on the crown, my Supers have adjustment in both which allows me to set the a-c as well.


    @northwind
    I know its not the entire story but as pointed out 35mm Boxxers have been doing just fine for years now. Plus remember the bigger you make your stanchion the bigger effect it has on steering lock.

    Premier Icon steveh
    Full Member

    I’ve got a 180mm boxxer on my main bike, had a 170mm vorsprung coil converted 36 before. Weight is very similar and axle to crown basically identical. The extra stiffness is really noticeable when riding through rock gardens etc with much less deflection. Not that all stiffness is good by any means (I’ve gone metal 31.8 bars to get less stiffness there) but this does feel better I think, should have a zeb to try as a comparison soon.

    Premier Icon Northwind
    Full Member

    squirrelking
    Free Member


    @northwind
    I know its not the entire story but as pointed out 35mm Boxxers have been doing just fine for years now. Plus remember the bigger you make your stanchion the bigger effect it has on steering lock.

    Sure, but the 35mm boxxer chassis isn’t light- the stanchions and lowers are strong, and there’s loads of bushing overlap (which is another way of adding stiffness, but needs longer stanchions). The weight difference between a current Fox 40 and a Boxxer is mostly in the damper and the 40’s pinch axle and air bleeders.

    Premier Icon bikesandboots
    Full Member

    My main concern about this fork is the angle of that mudguard, and that it’s secured by cable ties.

    Premier Icon matt_outandabout
    Full Member

    For an EWS, I think they are moving that way and there are advantages.

    Premier Icon Mat
    Full Member

    Ohhh! Took a look at the link at the top. Formula forks actually come that purple colour! I just assumed Joe Barnes had it done as a jokey nod to H&I Council 😲

    Premier Icon 5lab
    Free Member

    Rockshox were doing this years ago with the dual crown Sid.

    If you out zero (or even negative) offset in the legs you can put more in the crown to eliminate the turning circle issues

    Premier Icon kenneththecurtain
    Free Member

    If you were designing a long travel mountain bike fork from scratch, I find it hard to believe you’d use a single crown design. The biggest bending moment under braking, landing drops etc is right where the steerer joins the crown – dual crown is the better solution.

    Premier Icon endomick
    Free Member

    For those worrying about restricted steering, dont tempt the bike industry to introduce a new wider front hub standard for the sake of a few degrees, you know they will 😀

    Premier Icon jimmy748
    Full Member

    I’m seriously tempted by a set of these for my Geometron, I’d like to MORC my Grip2 36’s but they are 27.5 and by the time I’ve bought new lower and the MORC kit, these would be lighter and cheaper.

    Premier Icon p7eaven
    Free Member

    the future or OTT and marketing

    All of the above and also the past.

    I see: Orange, big welds, box section and dual crown

    I smell: The heady scent of 2001

    15-20 year cycles? 10 years ago we were getting set to re-brand rigid 90s bikes now with bigger wheels, tyres and tubeless. Also skinny-tubed rigid MTBs/ATBs with drop bars, alt bars and straight bars.

    The gravel/doitall/bikepacker/ATB won’t be de-rigeur again until at least early 2030s. Meanwhile we have some big air, big shredding, monster-dropoffs, many-gy drinks and some radicool graphics to get through…

    Premier Icon jameso
    Full Member

    If you were designing a long travel mountain bike fork from scratch, I find it hard to believe you’d use a single crown design.

    Yep.

    For those worrying about restricted steering, dont tempt the bike industry to introduce a new wider front hub standard for the sake of a few degrees, you know they will

    Main disadvantage to a wider front hub (now that 29″ wheels are accepted, at least on the front) could be acceptance friction. Again – if you were designing a mountain bike wheel system from scratch would you settle on only 10% wider hubs than whippy steel road bikes had been using a few decades ago? Cunningham bikes had a 120mm front hub for rim brakes. Jones bikes have used dual crown / non-cantilevered forks and wider 135 or 150mm hubs / dishless wheels to good effect for a while now.
    I’m not saying they need to be wider on Enduro bikes but the advantages are there, don’t see any disadvantages.

    Premier Icon impatientbull
    Full Member

    The benefits of a dual crown fork really appeal, but I can’t get over the possibility of writing off a frame in a crash. Is that a realistic possibility or am I worrying unnecessarily?

    Premier Icon singlespeedstu
    Full Member

    but I can’t get over the possibility of writing off a frame in a crash.

    Some bikes are already built to take triple clamp forks.
    Id have no worries about bolting one on my Geometron as its been built to be strong enough for them.

    Premier Icon squirrelking
    Free Member

    The benefits of a dual crown fork really appeal, but I can’t get over the possibility of writing off a frame in a crash. Is that a realistic possibility or am I worrying unnecessarily?

    I assumed that period ended when manufacturers were forced to make frames that didn’t snap if you looked at them funny and crack with each change in wind direction.

    Premier Icon thisisnotaspoon
    Full Member

    If you out zero (or even negative) offset in the legs you can put more in the crown to eliminate the turning circle issues

    The trouble with that is stanchion overlap, look at the 180mm travel fox forks and the lowers/stanchions extend well below the axle. So you would then need to be adding 60mm or so to the crown’s to get back to the ~30mm current lowers have. Probably doable but very wierd looking.

    Perhapse it’ll be less of an issue with 29ers though.

    I assumed that period ended when manufacturers were forced to make frames that didn’t snap if you looked at them funny and crack with each change in wind direction.

    Presume the issue is more the crown’s putting big dents into the frame at full lock in a crash.

    Solvable with big rubber bumpers but would still need some rethinking of tube shapes by the manufacturers.

    Premier Icon impatientbull
    Full Member

    Presume the issue is more the crown’s putting big dents into the frame at full lock in a crash.

    Solvable with big rubber bumpers but would still need some rethinking of tube shapes by the manufacturers.

    Yes, this is my concern, rather than head tubes snapping off or anything like that. I wouldn’t be comfortable hitting a carbon frame with a rubber mallet so not sure if the rubber bumpers really solve the issue.

    Premier Icon squirrelking
    Free Member

    Elans and Lahars were all using DC forks and from memory none suffered from it. I get where you’re coming from but it’s not that great a concern. You could probably mitigate with longer lugs on the head tube.

    Premier Icon clubby
    Full Member

    Maybe Trek are ahead of the game by already fitting frames with the knock block?
    Other factor I’d read (but not sure relevance to a lot of riders) is that longer stanchion on spring side would give more volume for air spring, especially on the negative side. Would also allow lower pressures to be run. Seen a weird fork on Pinkbike with a half upper crown and long air spring designed to do this.

    https://m.pinkbike.com/news/intend-bandit-one-and-a-half-crowns-downduro.html

    Premier Icon sharkattack
    Free Member

    Who is going to break the barrier and release the first £2000 dual crown enduro fork?

    I’m betting on Fox. Double the kashima, double the price innit. Simple economics.

Viewing 40 posts - 1 through 40 (of 63 total)

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.