Drug cheats and lifetime bans.

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  • Drug cheats and lifetime bans.
  • Elfinsafety
    Member

    See, that’s a bit different, innit? He weren’t taking something to enhance his performance, was he (well, maybe his follicle performance)?

    Kolo Toure apparently took some diet pills his wife had, which was bloody stupid really. But he weren’t really trying to gain a performance advantage, just lose some weight! The silly sod.

    He received and served a six-month ban, and no doubt was fined by his club. Is he a ‘cheat’? Nope, just naive and foolish.

    Millar and Chambers knowingly and deliberately took performance enhancing substances they knew were banned under the rules of their sports. They are cheats.

    Millar and Chambers knowingly and deliberately took performance enhancing substances they knew were banned under the rules of their sports. They are cheats

    So does it come down to intent (ala manslaughter vs murder) ?

    But then those same drugs (as in Nielsons case) are used to enhance (or in his case mask). Would this then provide a means of cover / excuse.

    Sets up the ideal that as long as you have a handy excuse … you’ll avoid the life time ban.

    Conundrum.

    I think there is provision within the anti doping guidance to account for intent (i.e. lower levels of punishment. Should these be removed under the “life time ban for all drug users” ideal ?

    SD-253
    Member

    Cheats are cheats its like having a head start in a race….cheating. Life time ban? well clearly that is not going to happen but a 5 year ban with constant testing if the person says he wants to compete in the furure if they say no and then change there minds then the ban starts from the time they say they will compete in the future. Also the 5 year ban for some atheletes is a life time ban?
    One thing about bans for taking drugs as in Rugby, is the ban for taking recreational drugs, If they are not a performance enchancer nobody should be banned for taking recreational drugs ??????

    If they are not a performance enchancer nobody should be banned for taking recreational drugs

    Except David Buck, the Wheelchair tennis player who was banned for testing positive to … cannabis !!!

    Elfinsafety
    Member

    Yeah the recreational drugs thing is daft. Shock horror; young people sometimes take recreational drugs!

    Hypocritical too, as alcohol and tobacco aren’t banned. Drug testing should be to root out the cheats, not punish someone for smoking a spliff ffs.

    SD-253
    Member

    don simon – Member
    I however need a doctor’s not to explain that while the asthma drugs I take are illegal and banned on the WADA list, I, in fact, am not doing anything illegal. Or should I not be allowed to compete?
    Not all black and white is it?

    Rubbish in your case (and mine) you are dealing with an illness. Taking ashma drugs isn’t a performance enchancer if you have ashma they don’t even allowe you to compete an even footing as in most cases they are only partialy efective.

    Stuey01
    Member

    Err what? Is being leaner not a performance advantage for a footballer then?
    I feel a bit sorry for Toure, because basically he was being a bit stupid, but really, he is a professional athlete who took drugs to lose weight – of course it was performance enhancing. It’s hardly in the same category as being caught taking steroids, but then he only recieved a 6 month sentence so that is reflected in the punishment.

    FLandis got caught at the TdF that he won, so I don’t see how him having a 2 year ban or a lifetime ban makes a blind bit of difference to Oscar standing on the top step of the podium. A 2 year ban pretty much finished his career anyway so the length of the ban wasn’t important, he cheated because he thought he could get away with it.

    The main point I came in here to make is that the harshness of the sentence is not the main deterent – it is the likelihood of getting caught.
    If the harshness of the sentence was the key factor in deciding whether to break the rules then we would see a significant difference in the murder rate in US states that have the death penalty compared to those that don’t… but there isn’t.
    Tougher penalties are a red herring, the key is increasing the likelihood of being caught. The authorities seem to be onto this, at least in cycling anyway, with the testing regimen they have.

    surfer
    Member

    He knew the rules and made his choice. He is banned from the Olympics. He is still probably making a bloody good living from the sport.

    Whether or not he is making a good living is beside the point and as far as “knowing the rules” maybe and maybe not. It appears those rules are “flexible” in certain situations.

    Rubbish in your case (and mine) you are dealing with an illness. Taking ashma drugs isn’t a performance enchancer

    Many athletes have been banned for taking over the counter drugs for cold/flu symptoms. Without googling it want Linford Christie “almost” banned towards the endo of his career for taking something along those lines?
    Some Asthma drugs contain steroids which may (again without googling it) be on the banned list.

    Rubbish in your case (and mine) you are dealing with an illness. Taking ashma drugs isn’t a performance enchancer if you have ashma they don’t even allowe you to compete an even footing as in most cases they are only partialy efective.

    Its actually on the banned list – or at least Salbutamol is – which an All Black prop got pinged for when he failed a drugs test 🙂

    Premier Icon teamhurtmore
    Subscriber

    I thought diuretic use was essentially as a masking agent? Not about losing weight, perhaps?

    SD-253
    Member

    Stuey01 – Member
    Err what? Is being leaner not a performance advantage for a footballer then?
    I feel a bit sorry for Toure, because basically he was being a bit stupid, but really, he is a professional athlete who took drugs to lose weight

    Not sure I understand this surely his training would keep at an apropraite weight? Is the drug he was taking also a masking drug?

    surfer
    Member

    because basically he was being a bit stupid, but really, he is a professional athlete who took drugs to lose weight – of course it was performance enhancing. It’s hardly in the same category as being caught taking steroids

    If I understand you, a professional athlete took a performance enhancing drug and was caught. How is that not in the same category as Chambers who is a professional athlete, took performanc enhancing drugs and was caught?
    Chambers was a cynical cheat and Toure was “a bit stupid” double standards

    Elfinsafety
    Member

    Trouble is though, as Toure and many, many other athletes have discovered, you really really need to read the label, and check every single ingredient of everything you take, from hayfever remedies to balness treatments. Loads of athletes have been caught out by the Ephedrine/Pseudephedrine thing, and that’s available in simple over the counter medicines in many countries.

    With Millar and Chambers, they knew exactly what they were taking, and why. And there’s a world of difference between a few diet pills and a carefully planned systematic course of EPO or steroids or whatever.

    Funny thing is though, Bullheart’s on all sorts of performance-enhancing stuff, and he still got beat by his little sister at Mountain Mayhem! 😆

    The dirty cheat…

    surfer
    Member

    With Millar and Chambers, they knew exactly what they were taking, and why. And there’s a world of difference between a few diet pills and a carefully planned systematic course of EPO or steroids or whatever.

    Nice spin.

    Trouble is though, as Toure and many, many other athletes have discovered, you really really need to read the label, and check every single ingredient of everything you take, from hayfever remedies to balness treatments. Loads of athletes have been caught out by the Ephedrine/Pseudephedrine thing, and that’s available in simple over the counter medicines in many countries.

    Some of these over the counter products can be performance enhancing. The onus is on the athlete to know what is on the banned list. Footballers tend not to fall foul of taking performance enhancing drugs (recreational once yes but thats because of their salary and life style) because their sports are not as physically demanding and competitive in the same was as athletics, cycling etc.

    Is the drug he was taking also a masking drug?

    Yes, it has been used in the past as a masking agent.

    Stuey01
    Member

    Not sure I understand this surely his training would keep at an apropraite weight?

    Apparently not, as he was taking his wifes slimming pills to lose weight. He can get a bit chunky for a footballer so maybe this is something he struggles with. I don’t know about the masking agent, it wasn’t reported as such in the press and you;d think they would be all over a scandal like that if it were.

    If I understand you, a professional athlete took a performance enhancing drug and was caught. How is that not in the same category as Chambers who is a professional athlete, took performanc enhancing drugs and was caught?
    Chambers was a cynical cheat and Toure was “a bit stupid” double standards

    Have I called Chambers a cynical cheat? No, didn’t think so.
    But back to your question… Toure was caught and banned, rightly in my opinion. Do I think his offence was as serious as Chambers? No, I don’t, and neither do the panel handing out the punishment, evidenced by his shorter ban.

    My main point was, and still is, that increased likelihood of being caught is a better deterent than a tougher sentence.

    surfer
    Member

    Have I called Chambers a cynical cheat? No, didn’t think so.
    But back to your question… Toure was caught and banned, rightly in my opinion. Do I think his offence was as serious as Chambers? No, I don’t, and neither do the panel handing out the punishment, evidenced by his shorter ban.

    Fair point the “cycnical cheat” tends to be many peoples (and the medias) impression of Chambers and were my words not yours, however you did say you “felt sorry” for him. Why would you feel sorry for an athlete who cheats? the punishment he was given reinforces my point that the rules are not clear and punishment depends on who and where you are.
    I agree with your point regarding risk of detection.

    trailmonkey
    Member

    Footballers tend not to fall foul of taking performance enhancing drugs (recreational once yes but thats because of their salary and life style) because their sports are not as physically demanding and competitive in the same was as athletics, cycling etc

    😆

    Stuey01
    Member

    Surfer, I guess I feel a bit sorry for Toure for a few reasons.
    1) He has always seemed to be a decent guy, as footballers go.
    2) I believe that he was stupid rather than an knowing cheat.
    3) I am an Arsenal fan and he was a quality player for us. (I accept that this may colour my judgement in this case somewhat)

    Elfinsafety
    Member

    Wunundred! 😀

    No performance enhancing substances were harmed in the making of this post.

    Stuey; as a Liverpool Fayn, I don’t believe Toure is a cheat, and I don’t think most other footy fayns do either. And neither does the FA or Footy in general, it seems.

    Whereas the worlds of athletics and cycling do see Chambers and Millar as cheats.

    Premier Icon teamhurtmore
    Subscriber

    Trouble is though, as Toure and many, many other athletes have discovered, you really really need to read the label, and check every single ingredient of everything you take,

    I am always surprised, given this, that top sportspeople are happy to drink from bottles thrust in their faces by random people. When will we have the first spiking of a bottle of lucozade? Airplane/restaurant food?

    (pls no reference to RWC in SA!!)

    don simon
    Member

    Rubbish in your case (and mine) you are dealing with an illness.

    I hadn’t realised you were there, my apologies. You’re telling me that Ventolin isn’t banned, that I didn’t require a letter or that it’s not black and white?
    Has anyone ever told you about your attitude problem?

    andrewh
    Member

    SD-253 – Member

    don simon – Member
    I however need a doctor’s not to explain that while the asthma drugs I take are illegal and banned on the WADA list, I, in fact, am not doing anything illegal. Or should I not be allowed to compete?
    Not all black and white is it?

    Rubbish in your case (and mine) you are dealing with an illness. Taking ashma drugs isn’t a performance enchancer if you have ashma they don’t even allowe you to compete an even footing as in most cases they are only partialy efective.

    Therputic Use Exemption required. If you have a genuine medical need (and appropriate documentation to prove it) you can take most things. To use the example of EPO, well known for increasing the amount of oxygen your blood can carry, useful if you have anemia, cheating if you don’t . It’s in the rules that you can use it if you have a TUE, and that is the point, not whether or not you have taken something but whether or not you have cheated.
    .
    .

    If they are not a performance enchancer nobody should be banned for taking recreational drugs

    Yes they should. Example, cannabis. It’s banned, (a concentration in urine of 11-nor-delta 9-
    tetrahydrocannabinol-9-carboxylic acid (carboxy-THC) greater than 15 nanograms per millilitre constitutes doping to quote from the rules) if they have taken it they should be banned, they have broken the rules. It may not help them go faster but if I am racing my bike I would like to think the guy behind had his mind on the job and was not half-stoned, safety of other competitiors is an issue here.
    Also, masking agents such as epitestosterone, probenecid and various diuretics are banned for obvious reasons, even though they themselves give no advantage.

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