As for boarding schools, I would think that we could save SO MUCH on traffic if we had something akin to the North American school bus system. There, every School Board (overseeing multiple schools) has a fleet of school buses used to transport any children more than a certain distance away. Everyone else is encouraged to walk or take a bicycle.

Can you imagine? 40-50 children in each bus? That’s a lot fewer cars on the road. Plus, you get to get driven to school by this guy.

I mean, who could possibly not want to pull a Michael Douglas

A bold statement to make for an older North American such as yourself driving round a town full of young Welsh ladies….

Ultimately, though, when I ask about the “tipping point”, I am really just wondering aloud if all the others on the road don’t also despair

don’t think so. A big part of the problem is that it’s such a normalised part of some peoples’ lives now. They might hate it but actually not even realise there might be an alternative.

Ultimately, though, when I ask about the “tipping point”, I am really just wondering aloud if all the others on the road don’t also despair… I mean, who could possibly not want to pull a Michael Douglas in Falling Down, when having to do that every single day?!? Or if not a Michael Douglas, then at least try to be part of a solution?

What would a ‘tipping point’ look like to you? I mean what would happen then? I’m sure there’s some statistical model that shows when speeds slow to a certain level people are less likely to drive, but presumably things would hover somewhere around that point unless there’s some sort of government intervention aimed at changing behaviour?

What does seem clear is that simply building more and more roads achieves nothing except to draw more people onto them.

Call that a traffic jam?!?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_National_Highway_110_traffic_jam

I commute to Glasgow via public transport every working day. I leave my house at 6.30am and get into my lab around 8am – 8.15am. I travel into the city on the local bus service. It’s slow, expensive and oh my, you do encounter some characters on it. Once I’m in the city, I travel from the centre out to the west end either by the subway if it’s pishing down or on a Nextbike. Return journey is much the same, although the ‘character encounters’ are more frequent.

What I see every morning, is traffic snarling up and coming to an almost standstill on the motorway about 3 miles from the city centre. In the winter, this can extend out to about 7 miles. In the mornings, when I look up from the book I’m reading or amazon prime episode I’m watching, while sitting on my nearly empty bus, I can look into the cars and without exaggeration, I’d say that less than 1 in 20 have more than one person in them.

People think my commute is a horror show, (which it actually kind of is as I’m currently watching downloaded episodes of Preacher in the mornings on my Amazon Fire), but I would go mad if I was sitting on my trying to drive a car through that nightmare.

I always make a point of thanking the bus driver every time I get off. I can’t see why anyone would want to drive into or around a city.

I probably do a similar route, but usually take the bike, which is 1hr each way ish including getting a shower/changed. When I broke my wrist I tried public transport and found thusly:

-the train station is so far away it takes an age to get to, and even if I could get a lift or drive there, there were works at Queen St and big issues (delays >1hr for a normally 12 minute journey) both days I tried it.

-There’s a bus stop at the end of my road. It was literally more expensive than I could imagine for a return fare, so I only had money for a single. It should have taken about 1h if the bus ran on time, but it took me 1.5hrs as the traffic was bad/timetable was hopelessly optimistic.

I drove. It was more than taking the train, but less than taking the bus (bearing in mind I already have the car, and pay tax etc on it anyway, I’m only counting parking and petrol here, but even the total cost would’ve been similar and cheaper parking options were available). It never took me more than 35 minutes, I got to see my kids more etc. – and that’s despite the horrendous traffic on the motorway.

So whilst I can see the attraction of public transport if you’re happy to watch telly or read a book, I had my (to me good) reasons to get home quicker, couldn’t take the bike, and public transport just wasn’t up to the job.

If I do anything that hinders my driving and cycling, I’ll just work from home or take a lot of time off sick.

I think the solution is proper investment in active travel to make it more attractive and safer, and nationalisation of public transport (to prevent the ever increasing spiral of cost). Once you’re there with the carrots, you can bring out the big sticks to beat motorists with. I can understand why people drive round here, but they should be heavily discouraged.

Well people look at me and go ..why dont you drive?…I answer..it takes me 25 mins to do my commute each way..I can get to shops and friends and anything else in a bout a 10 mile radius..why waste fuel or cause pollution when frankly I feel better when I cycle(helps with depression plus other behavioural issues) and I can usually get there about the same time as I can squeeze through gaps and filter ..so dont need to drive…most people dont..but they do anyway..

I say …GET OFF YOUR F******G LAZY ASSES AND DO SOME EXCERSIZE YOU FAT F***S..over dependency on cars is laziness..you will feel better and be healthier if you do journeys under 30 miles by bike or journeys under 10 miles by walking..then you will just do it that way..I dont have another means(DONT DRIVE-NO LISCENCE) and I’m still able to get around ..its a waste and I’m frankly ashamed when I meet those people who drive on a 5 minute walk..pathetic..try biking it for a few months all weathers then it’s just normal..and Frankely EASY…security has to be covered but that’s not too hard..

After this winter, and two near being squished moments I gave in and started commuting by car, now I ride in 1 or 2 days a week. It’s only 3 miles or so, but through heavy traffic. On Friday on a back road I was using to try to avoid the main chaos I had an audi driver aim straight at me on the wrong side of the road (parked traffic on his lane). I had to jump on to the curb. I thought bet he isn’t going to slow down….oh know he has actually put his foot down and aimed at me. It is frankly **** ridiculous that sort of thing is deemed ok now in the battle to get to work on time.

I actually actively discourage others from commuting by bike in my city unless they are really confident it is too dangerous.
In my 3.5miles I ride past where two pedestrians and one cyclist have been killed in the last 2 years.

How about making everywhere one massive one way system?!

The root of the problem is car ownership. If we get rid of that issue everything else is solvable. The problem is the big car manufacturers don’t want to lose sales.

Imagine a future with a Johnny Cab picking you up in the morning then picking up someone else going the same route. No more single occupancy vehicles. Also Mr Johnny Cab won’t drive deliberately at cyclists.

Who will vote for my political party “The Abolish Car Ownership Alliance”?

I live in North London, public transport is pretty good really, I can’t complain too much

I mostly cycle to work in central London (21 mile round trip) although I live right by a tube station

I cycle locally and for my kids clubs I cycle a cargo bike. Pre cargo bike I was using a car. To be honest my area is quite hilly so it’s a hard work but hopefully an electric conversion solves that.

I drive once a week to my kids’ swimming lesson but only because it’s too far to cycle and there’s no safe route anyway. If I didn’t have a car I could find a pool that was closer but they’re getting on well so no desire to change this.

We do have regular buses around but I don’t really use these

I can see the challenge of living somewhere without public transport. Our UK holidays highlight how difficult it would be without a car

I listened to an interesting podcast a while back where they spoke to the mayor of a Spanish city that had successfully banned cars. One of the most telling bits was when they asked him if this wasn’t unpopular. His response was that yes, initially it was, but if you provide viable alternatives, people forget about that, use those alternatives and appreciate how much more pleasant it is living in a car-free space.

Seville, I think? Their plan was to get all the infrastructure for cycling/walking built fast, in the year or two after election, so that the benefits would kick in before they were voted out.

Something similar happened in (I think) Utrecht – a socialist-green council got unexpectedly elected; thinking that they’d never get reelected anyway they just pushed through car bans and infrastructure building. It turned out to be so popular they got back in.

It’s campaigning for stuff like this that made me stand for election – we were asking the wrong people to do the right thing.

Move to the sticks, there’s fewer cars.

Obviously not the answer for everyone, but it worked for us.

We still drive a lot of places. My wife’s work is too far to make biking realistic. Public transport is beyond comedy.

But.

I ride to work some of the time. Driving is ok – I’m not in enough traffic for it to be a hassle.

Kids can be biked to some activities in the village.

Dunno what the answer for UK plc. is though. Running public transport as a public service, not as a profit making corporation would be a good start.

Well, we can all do our bit cycling when we can and reducing the congestion that would be there otherwise. But a lot of people will have to be made to do it, probably by hitting them financially which doesn’t help the less well off.

Unless anyone wants to invest in my boutique pedal car business to tempt the bourgeoisie away from their German cars. Then others will aspire to these too…

People use their cars as a two-ton mobility scooter. Why walk to the corner store when it’s easier to drive. Most folk at the place I work drive a mile or two in. I know someone who drove half a mile day in day out, complained about parking issues. One morning defrosting their car they realized it might be quicker to walk, simply hadn’t occurred to them before.

Move to the sticks, there’s fewer cars.

Live where you want, work somewhere else, just join the two up by car. A lifestyle made possible by fossil fuels. I’m not sure that’s the answer either, but probably the one I’d go for.

Haven’t read the whole thread but

"Building more roads to prevent congestion is like a fat man loosening his belt to prevent obesity"
~Lewis Mumford (1955) pic.twitter.com/g1AdHSZ3r4

— Cycling Professor (@fietsprofessor) September 6, 2019

Something similar happened in (I think) Utrecht – a socialist-green council got unexpectedly elected; thinking that they’d never get reelected anyway they just pushed through car bans and infrastructure building. It turned out to be so popular they got back in.

It’s campaigning for stuff like this that made me stand for election – we were asking the wrong people to do the right thing.

I like! 🙂

I do yay mileage a year getting to work as I travel nationwide* – as it happens, the car cooked her alternator on Monday so I’ve had to commute from the hotel by bike this week (thank god it was in the back of the car!). It’s been really interesting to be back on the roads for the first time in a couple of years, firstly because it reminds me that bikes are by a mile the best way to get around where distances are practicable, secondly because I’ve had to become reacquainted with just how shit car drivers can be and how much better the world will be when they’re all f***ed off (me included). The win goes to the high-speed/close-range pass ****, but a special mention for those who think that slow speed excuses a close pass, I’d forgotten about those mouth-breathers.

* Love my job, but seeking a change to a cycleable commute as I just don’t think the carbon I pump out is morally justifiable.

you will feel better and be healthier if you do journeys under 30 miles by bike or journeys under 10 miles by walking.

You will also have far less time to do anything else. 10 miles works out to 3 hours walking, not accounting for hills. No ta.

Bit nuts, really – just realised, for a local (6.5 mile) job recently, it took me 75 minutes to drive to the train station, travel to the city centre, then walk to the client’s office. If they’d had a washroom, I could have done it in half the time on the bike with zero carbon emissions other than my own wheezy lungs.

You can cycle 6.5 miles without needing a washroom surely?

For this Surrey job, the 6.5 miles in are almost entirely downhill, so it’s just a fringe benefit that they have a room to freshen up with – if the journey were reversed, I wouldn’t consider it viable without a shower.

Live where you want, work somewhere else, just join the two up by car.

The job was also close (well, close enough to cycle commute) to our house. If I’m honest we’re not really out in the sticks by very much, but the house-job route doesn’t go into the local city. All of which was (mostly) deliberate.

People are buying cars that are too big for our small country.
Yesterday it was obvious that for 4/5 of these suv/4×4 type things you can get at lease 5/6/7 small normal sized cars into that stretch of road.

There are more vans delivering stuff from places such as amazon. Buy locally, yes its dearer but you have to look at the bigger picture.

There will always be a need for cars. For example I take my elderly mother out on a Friday, she wants to get out of the house. Travelling by public transport or on my bike is just not an option.

I am hopeful that more people will cycle in the future. I’m seeing families around our area taking their children out for the day on bikes.

We had a talk last night at our WI from a professor. He was saying that there is a blanket over the earth that’s slowly heating it up. It is now almost an emergency to change our bad habits and get off the roads, walk more, cycle more and take more public transport. His talk was sobering. However in our particular WI he was preaching mainly to the converted.

Everyone seems to have excuses why excessive car usage is not excessive for them. From my point of view 90% of car usage is excessive.

The only way to alter this is via the pocket.

Zero tolerance policing for road crime

End the massive subsidy from the public purse to car drivers

DT78, as another resident of Southampton, I agree parts of our city road network have become extremely hostile for cyclists… For at least certain times during a typical week.

However, little tweaks to commuting routes can make things far more pleasant and in my case even quicker to get between home and work.

My old route in: https://www.strava.com/routes/21822302
New route in: https://www.strava.com/routes/21822425

My old route home: https://www.strava.com/routes/21822632
My newer typical route home during term time: https://www.strava.com/routes/21822552

I’m not familar with bike-friendly routes north of Shirley, but have you looked at using The Common, Bassett Sports Centre and maybe even Lordwood off-road?

Southampton has become a traffic hellhole over the last ~10 years or so, with jams during the rush hours and school runs, plus so many homes having more cars than they have space for on their drives (so they then park right up on the pavement becoming an obstacle for pedestrians, something which is being looked at by government since I last brought this up).

Personally, for the most part, I hated owning cars. I used them needlessly for stupid little journeys, when they were only really useful for bulk food shopping and the very odd long distance trip. Getting rid of the last car, which did most of its miles doing the above commute, was the best thing I did financially and environmentally.

I’m not familar with bike-friendly routes north of Shirley, but have you looked at using The Common, Bassett Sports Centre and maybe even Lordwood off-road?

Yes definitely doable, as I did this morning! But sometimes I don’t have the time / energy to do it or don’t fancy riding through the winter slop (its lovely at the moment)
https://www.strava.com/activities/2721556203

Soon I will be doing school and nursery drop offs, so very limited time to get into work. In an ideal world. I’d take a trailer/weehoo drop them off and do the shortest route possible (the gauntlet past the general….) I just don’t think its safe enough. Walking is a challenge!

In particular the Rownhams road out to Baddersly is the most hostile, almost without fail if I head along that I will get a punishment pass, or verbal abuse for not using the overgrown/unsafe cycle path.

Southampton didn’t used to be this bad. I’ve commuted by bike in and around town now for 20 years.

The only way to alter this is via the pocket.

Zero tolerance policing for road crime

End the massive subsidy from the public purse to car drivers

I have long been in favour of extremely draconian traffic enforcement, whether by humans or (with modern tech) cameras. Parking on zig-zags, blocking yellow boxes, RLJ, using the left lane on a roundabout to turn right, etc etc. I don’t know why there isn’t a camera on every relevant junction/red light tbh. The enforcement would pay for itself & if it adjusted peoples’ behaviour everyones journeys would be that little bit smoother/safer.

I’d also like to see more toll motorways, etc with the money being put into subsidising bus tickets. I’d use the local bus service more if it wasn’t so expensive!! Was in France at the beginning of the month, city bus service is subsidised (possible state owned?) and any individual journey is €1.40 with a whole-day pass €3.70 (I think) which is under half the cost that it is here. Got the bus to a local music fest in the next town (6 miles away) recently, 22 min journey cost £21.90 return for 3 of us!! A taxi both ways would only have been slightly more.

Parking on zig-zags, blocking yellow boxes, RLJ, using the left lane on a roundabout to turn right, etc etc.

you can’t demand that car drivers obey the law. That’s war on the motorist!

From what I read two cities in the UK have decent public transport – ~Edinburgh and London. Whats the difference to other cities? state owned city wide non competitive systems.

Edinburgh is £1.70 on the bus for any journey and IIRC £3.70 for a day ticket ( not sure – its around that). there is about 30 buses an hour past my door.

~Scotrail is not bad as well – getting to my parents by public transport ( leith to Milngavie) is cheaper and quicker by public transport than to drive.

I don’t see why it would be so difficult to make large cities Park & Ride only zones – provide huge parking areas in various locations around the city limits and have a number of regular electric/eco-bus routes into the centre and through the suburbs. Restricting the hours within which deliveries can be made would help in reducing the pollution levels and would mean that public transport & active travel infrastructure would need to be decent & affordable, if only for fear of pushing people (and money) out of the centres.

As with others I used to enjoy driving but not any more due to a combination of the quality of the roads, standards of driving and the volume of traffic.

This subject makes me despair. I work in the “Georgian quarter” of Liverpool and everyday I watch as pavements are destroyed through parking and police and wardens walk by. The red light jumping and aggressive driving, often by people busy on there phones, is depressing. Liverpool may win the league this year but they are already at the top of the UK KSI table which is a disgrace. All we seem to do is encourage driving even more. pedestrians and cyclist are threatened and harassed at every opportunity.

I don’t see why it would be so difficult to make large cities Park & Ride only zones

There are 2 P&R schemes where I live but they aren’t that widely used, the council are loathe to do anything to make their use mandatory as the local traders will kick off (they probably have a point, people are so lazy so would rather just drive to an out-of-town shopping centre if they were forced to park & ride into town). It’s very difficult balancing act!

There is really no easy answer. I think cars need to be phased out (the sooner the better) but certainly i don’t envy anyone trying to actually do that.

The economists answer would probably revolve around scarcity. Once people realise their scarce resources (time, money, environment, health etc) can be better spent elsewhere, they will.

At this point though, cars are really just a symptom of the way we live and you would probably be better focusing on that and letting the cars disappear naturally.

For instance, the place I used to buy my electronics parts from just moved from a location in a heavily populated, transit accessible, easily walkable (from work or home for a large number of people) to the middle of an industrial estate that is only accessible by car. They got priced out of their previous location because of its attributes. So I can either drive there or order off the web (which is more environmentally evil than leaving the car idling all day, everyday because it comes from China on a plane and is then delivered to me by lorry/van/car etc because they promise 3 day delivery for each single item.)

You can cycle 6.5 miles without needing a washroom surely?

I popped to the local Argos a couple of days ago on the bike to pick up an Ebay delivery. 7.5 miles, didn’t break a sweat.

I popped to the local Argos a couple of days ago on the bike to pick up an Ebay delivery. 7.5 miles, didn’t break a sweat.

I suppose that depends on whether you live somewhere flat/ sheltered or somewhere hilly / with a prevailing wind.

7.5 miles will get a sweat going if you’re going straight into the wind.

Also, as I touched on above, it depends on the route – this week, I’m in Surrey and the ride TO work is almost exclusively downhill. Conversely, the ride back to the hotel is uphill with a fairly spicey climb for the last three quarters of a mile – the men’s toilets at the client for the downhill ride in is fine to freshen up in, but if the ride were the other way round, I wouldn’t be comfortable working there after cycling it if the client didn’t have a shower.

7.5 miles will get a sweat going if you’re going straight into the wind.

Depends how fast you want to go. I was only shopping so lived up to my name.

Zero tolerance policing for road crime

An article in one of the populist papers the other day:
Driver FURY as speed cameras set to rake in £600,000 PER YEAR!

It was to do with a big new stretch of smart motorway that had just gone live and I was jist reading the article and thinking – there’s a really easy way you can avoid paying any money to speed cameras.

You just wouldn’t get that in any other walk of life.
Shoplifter FURY as CCTV set to stop them stealing!
Clubber RAGE as CCTV stops them spiking girls drinks!!

Yet with driving it’s seen as some sort of divine right to break the law and how dare the authorities try and stop you. Yes, I’d love to see a massive crackdown on driving offences. Driving while DQ’d – straight off to the cells, do not pass go, do not collect your belongings. Massive fines for things like driving while uninsured (because it’s often cheaper to not pay insurance and then just pay the £200 fine if caught). And technology now should be able to make it impossible to start a car if you’re drunk/drugged or if you’re not the registered owner.

Proper investigation into crashes. In a plane or train crash, they don’t just say “oh let the insurance sort it out” – they do a full interrogation on the black boxes and other tech, work out what the problems were and fix them. Love to see that one in use on the roads with appropriate punishments.

And technology now should be able to make it impossible to start a car if you’re drunk/drugged or if you’re not the registered owner.

Brother in law works for a coach company, I’m sure he said their coaches have breathlysers and won’t start if you’re over the alcohol limit, big fan of that.

cougar – we would save even more driving to schools if we got rid of the stupid choice agenda in schooling and everyone just goes to their local school. Everyone walked to my secondary school or got the bus. No one – and I mean no one of the thousand plus pupils was driven to school. No one travelled more than 2 miles to school