Not to get drawn into the main debate- I’d rather eat my own leg- but can anyone enlighten me as to why anyone still takes these credit ratings seriously? Moodys considered Greece an A proposition til mid 2010 after all, and it seems widely accepted that the misrating of toxic debt packages was contributory to the banking crisis to boot.

The Labour Party’s position is not fundamentally different, they just would do what the Tories are doing but at a slightly slower speed and with a slightly different emphasis. Which explains why Labour are so weak when it comes to attacking the Tory’s economic policies – they offer no real credible alternative. To do so would be far too scarey for them – it would mean taking on the press/media, which quite frankly terrifies them, and passionately putting the case for alternative economic policies to a public which has been molded into believing that there is no alternative to neo-liberalism.

well put

What a joy to come back into…I am not sure what is funnier/frustrating to read

If there’s no joy and all frustration in you reading this thread – just don’t.

can anyone enlighten me as to why anyone still takes these credit ratings seriously?

Many investment managers for e.g. pension funds have mandates that say “this fund will not invest in any bonds with less than a AAA rating”. The upside of that is that it means investment managers of a high security low growth can’t go putting the whole lot in Libyan Emu futures; the downside is that it does rather leave the whole system reliant on the ratings agencies.

Ernie what’s your solution then? 😆

Let me guess…..

Kona, the thread is fine and interesting, Just the shame about some bits of behaviour especially when mods try to prevent it. But life goes on!

So the UK is doing everything so much worse than everyone else? Hmmm, so if that was the case – weak prospects, incorrect policy mix, negative real interest rates, rising unemployment, bust banks, more QE, the value of the £ would…….?

……..go down. Actually not a bad thing and that was th actual policy not so long ago. Massive monetary stimulus, low rates, QE and weaker currency was the BOE chosen route.

…but what is happening now? Given all those presumably smart people looking at FX rates know at last as much as STW posters, you would expect them to be selling the £ a lot…..it’s the basket case of Europe, right? Instead the £ keeps on rising (up 5% against the dollar and 2% against the Eur0 YTD. Honestly, how can all those clever people be making such a stupid decision. The mind boggles 😉

Honestly, how can all those clever people be making such a stupid decision. The mind boggles

Didn’t this financial crisis come about through a lot of very clever people making very stupid decisions?

Didn’t this financial crisis come about through a lot of very clever overpaid people making very stupid decisions?

Better

Didn’t this financial crisis come about through a lot of very clever overpaid people making very stupid decisions?because the history of capitalism is the history of boom and bust.

THM once more you tells us how the market is reacting* this and not how the ordinary person in the street is reacting to this.

We should be trying to help the majority not the rich elitists who value money above all else…you will be telling me the market never gets anything wrong next and has a moral voice and conscious. perhaps you could use tobacco or asbestos to illuminate your argument.

We need to balance the two [ if we have capitalism] and it is not unreasonable to suggest that there may be a Plan b that would be better.

* this is as much an indication the Euro is on the radar and they think they have more power than Europe so they will take it on so to speak to – US is in an election hence their is uncertainty in the market place as well as the debts issue Mit will slash and burn as well I imagine hence barak wont]

Surely the rich clever people made clever decisions? They just dont give a **** about others.

Surely we don’t want an expensive Pound as that makes our exports less competitive and just encourages us to buy stuff from abroad.

Didn’t this financial crisis come about through a lot of very clever overpaid people making very stupid decisions and taking advantage of even more stupider people?

EDIT:

Surely we don’t want an expensive Pound as that makes our exports less competitive and just encourages us to buy stuff from abroad.

Exactly and it might be a good idea to lower costs too, this might just help achieve a competitive price. Unfortunately when this is tried the selfish unions try and put a stop to it.

Unfortunately when this is tried the selfish unions try and put a stop to it.

It’s been a while since the unions have been blamed for the state of the economy, so well done don simon for so creatively linking “selfish unions” with the double-dip recession Britain is now experiencing.

If only selfless industrialists and bankers were allowed to run the country instead of greedy trade unions eh ?

It’s been a while since the unions have been blamed for the state of the economy, so well done don simon for so creatively linking “selfish unions” with the double-dip recession Britain is now experiencing.

At least you waited for the edit this time, unfortunately you still insist on putting you own little twist on what people say to try and make yourself look smart.

If only selfless industrialists and bankers were allowed to run the country instead of greedy trade unions eh ?

If that’s what you truly believe ernesto, then why not?
EDIT FOR ERNESTO: I also assume that that is some witty snipe at my beliefs, yet you have no idea what my beliefs are except that I believe unions have priced the UK out of the competition.

DS your trolls and subsequent defence are rather obvious [resist the denial

How can I put a “twist” on what you say don simon – it’s there in black and white.

You have very clearly said that Britain needs to lower costs to be more competitive, but that unfortunately when this is tried the selfish unions try to put a stop to it. If that isn’t linking the trade unions with the state of the economy then I don’t know what is.

I don’t think pointing out the absurdity of trying to blame the trade unions for the state of the economy makes me look smart……perhaps it’s more a case of you feeling stupid ?

EDIT FOR ERNESTO: I also assume that that is some witty snipe at my beliefs, yet you have no idea what my beliefs are except that I believe unions have priced the UK out of the competition.

yeah we’d be much better off if we were more like china or something. Or the usa or er… Trying to think of a good example….

Troll? Can a person not offer a different view without being accused of trolling?
Is it OK to slag off the bankers and the bosses yet not to say anything against the trade unions?
The lady doth protest me thinks?
Might I suggest you do a bit of reading on Ricardo Semler before simply accusing me of trolling.

In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory,[2] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[3] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion

You now have my emotional response.

Is it OK to slag off the bankers and the bosses yet not to say anything against the trade unions?

You can say what you like about trade unions, but when you apportion blame on them for the state of the economy on a thread about double-dip recession, then expect to be challenged. Or more likely, ridiculed.

Or more likely, ridiculed.

So you’re telling me that the high costs of manufacture in the UK are competitive on a global scale then?
That companies are queueing up to put manufacturing bases here becasue the unions won’t pull the workforce out on strike?
Are you saying that unions have zero responsibilty on the economic crisis?

yes it is proper on topic and now i have read the wiki link you have so changed my mind. Yes you believe what you are saying, it is highly relevant and we should discuss to what extent the powerful unions have caused and stifled the recovery…what issue should we start with then?
Lighting strikes?
The General strike?
Flying Pickets?
Walkouts without votes?
national unrest?

God really where should we start …thanks for reminding us all

EDIT: no myu mistake can we pin dance about what the word “Are you saying that unions have zero responsibilty on the economic crisis” zero means in this sentence.

i have seen nothing credible that argues that the cause of the current economic crisis has anything to do with the unions…I would remind you of germany which is much more Unionised than here so
yada yadda

You are cpt flash and I claim my £5

I cant be arsed DS but I am sure someone will

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/9049505/Days-lost-to-strikes-hit-20-year-high.html

if you take out the public sector striking over pensions [ after all they make f all and contribute nothing to the economy iirc] what do the figures say then?

oh I then read your link it syas pretty much that…so its the unions and the public sector wot done it….yes you got me now I really cannot beat this faultless logic…still I am more bored than you off to build wheel …enjoy the games

Anyone who thinks the Tories got us into a recession is naive IMO. Equally if we think a Labour government would see us with growth – equally naive.

We’re not as rich as we thought we were – it was all based on debt remember.
Developing countries have seen us get rich and wealthy on the back of postwar growth and are now, as they see it, straightening things out. And why not?

This isn’t a short term recession which we;ll come out of next year, back to what we got used to, or even a lost decade. It’s a long overdue IMO rebalancing of wealth and power in the world – we industrialised first and got first mover advantage, that’s all.

Instead of giving other countries aid, we’ll trade with them. They’ll get richer. Doesn’t mean we get poorer, prob just more equal.

It’s called globalisation. No political party or political ideology/dogma is likely to produce a better way of dealing with it IMO… it’s too big, too fundamental

Those who have most to gain from the status quo – politicians, bankers, chief execs, union leaders etc etc are unhappy about this – they quite like the wealth, power and status they have (who wouldn’t?) they’re scared of an equalisation, so I wouldn’t listen to anything they have to say, they’re scared and trying to stop the inevitable change coming thru…

Just accept we’re not going to go back to the economic growth we’ve got used to all our lives… no bad thing IMO, maybe we’ll be a nicer society for it…

if you take out the public sector striking over pensions [ after all they make f all and contribute nothing to the economy iirc] what do the figures say then?

But they are a cost.

yes you got me now I really cannot beat this faultless logic.

Actually you can, but only when you don’t think hard enough. Are you saying that unions pushing labour costs up has made us more or less competitive on the global stage?
Are you saying that I believe the unions are the sole contributors to the credit crisis? Or am I saying that they should be included as part of the problem and could if they wanted be part of the solution?
Perhaps the German unions work with the companies as a team rather than taking a more black and white attitude we have here (both in industry and the forum).

Are you saying that unions have zero responsibilty on the economic crisis?

Er yes – zero responsibility for the economic crisis. It wasn’t the trade unions who caused the global credit crunch, they didn’t demand the deregulation of the finance sector, they didn’t encourage incompetence by greedy bankers, they didn’t ask for lower wages so that their members would have to rely on easy credit to make ends meet, they didn’t push up the price of housing through speculation, they didn’t demand that government contracts go to foreign companies with the loss of UK skills, they are not responsible for overproduction and underconsumption, they haven’t demanded job cuts which only contribute to growing doles queues, in fact, without trade unions the economy would be in a worse place, as the minute influence they have does put a slight brake on otherwise rampant free-market capitalism.

That companies are queueing up to put manufacturing bases here becasue the unions won’t pull the workforce out on strike?

Go on then – tell me…….when was the last significant strike in Britain’s manufacturing sector.

EDIT : Actually on reflection the trade unions do indeed have some responsibility, in that they didn’t do enough to oppose the disastrous neoliberal policies which got us into this mess. Not even when Tony Blair and Gordon Brown were in power, when they shamefully did nothing to stop the pair carrying on with the neoliberal experiment.

Go on then – tell me…….when was the last significant strike in Britain’s manufacturing sector.

Do you only work in absolutes? Can you not get your head around trends, I’ll spell it out for you, shall I?
Does it have to be a single national stike?

Er yes – zero responsibility for the economic crisis. It wasn’t the trade unions who caused the global credit crunch, they didn’t demand the deregulation of the finance sector, they didn’t encourage incompetence by greedy bankers, they didn’t ask for lower wages so that their members would have to rely on easy credit to make ends meet, they didn’t push up the price of housing through speculation, they didn’t demand that government contracts go to foreign companies with the loss of UK skills, they are not responsible for overproduction and underconsumption, they haven’t demanded job cuts which only contribute to growing doles queues, in fact, without trade unions the economy would be in a worse place, as the minute influence they have does put a slight brake on otherwise rampant free-market capitalism.

And that, of course, is your failing ernesto.
With regard to demanding job cuts, are you saying that pushing up costs isn’t likely to result in job cuts during a crisis?
Are you saying that the new found wealth that the unions got the workforce didn’t drive demand in the housing market?
Are you saying that Govt contracts went abroad because they were more expensive?
Are you trying to tell me that I don’t apportion some of the blame to capitalism? I appears that you are. I completely agree with the fact that deregulation contributed to the crisis. I completely agree that greed contributed.
There is no middle ground with you, is there?

Just accept we’re not going to go back to the economic growth we’ve got used to all our lives… no bad thing IMO, maybe we’ll be a nicer society for it…

If it wasn’t for the fact that our society is reaching new levels of inequality (which has numerous knock on harmful effects on society), then maybe.

Just popped my head round the door. Ah we’re still going.

I get the impression that uponthedowns believes there is no alternative. And to be fair he’s not alone, the TINA mantra has been widely accepted for a long time, getting as it does almost unchallenged supremacy in the media. And in essence, support from all three main political parties. The Labour Party’s position is not fundamentally different, they just would do what the Tories are doing but at a slightly slower speed and with a slightly different emphasis.

Thanks for those sensible words Ernie. For some reason there’s someone around here who thinks that anyone who disagrees with him must be a “swivel eyed” Tory. As you have pointed out I could be a Labour supporter and still have come to the same conclusion.

Do you only work in absolutes?

I have to work on what you give me, and this is what you gave me :

“That companies are queueing up to put manufacturing bases here becasue the unions won’t pull the workforce out on strike?”

You are very clearly claiming that companies are not putting “manufacturing bases here” because of the risk of strike action. For me to ask you “when was the last significant strike in Britain’s manufacturing sector?” therefore is perfectly reasonable.

I only asked for “the last” significant strike in Britain’s manufacturing sector, an easy enough request I would have thought. The fact that you don’t immediately give me a single example and instead rely on retorting “Do you only work in absolutes” shows how desperately weak or non-existent your argument is.

I only asked for “the last” significant strike in Britain’s manufacturing sector, an easy enough request I would have thought. The fact that you don’t immediately give me a single example and instead rely on retorting “Do you only work in absolutes” shows how desperately weak or non-existent your argument is.

That’s quite clever ernesto and I do see what you did, because I didn’t say…

“That companies are queueing up to put manufacturing bases here becasue the unions won’t pull the workforce out on significant strikes?”

…But alluded to an overall picture, and, of course, you knew that.

….there’s someone around here who thinks that anyone who disagrees with him must be a “swivel eyed” Tory

Agreed……he needs to be kept in check sometimes 🙂

That’s quite clever ernesto and I do see what you did, because I didn’t say…

OK I’m bored now. You’re having to resort to claiming that you didn’t say things which you said, despite the fact that I copied and pasted it, including the spelling mistake, from your post.

Significant?
Why do you want info on the “last significant” strike when I was talking in general terms?

cough.. wasnt it the unions who bank rolled the govt before and during the start of this crisis? wasnt it the unions who had two thirds of the vote in deciding who the countries leader should be when blair stood aside and democracy was swept aside? wasnt it the unions who drove expansion of the public sector to record levels? was nt it the unions who insisted that the NHS should grow its budget by inflation busting amounts every year leading it to become the 5th biggest employer in the world?
we ALL contributed to the current issues we ALL wanted everything and we wanted it now and we ALL had no corries of how it was going to be paid for.
we ALL democratically elected a new parliament and two parties joined together to govern
it wont be over by tea time it wont be over by Xmas but what goes around comes around and we ll ALL benifit when it does if we ALL accept our part in it.

With regard to demanding job cuts, are you saying that pushing up costs isn’t likely to result in job cuts during a crisis?
Are you saying that the new found wealth that the unions got the workforce didn’t drive demand in the housing market?
Are you saying that Govt contracts went abroad because they were more expensive?

Have to agree with Ernie here. The unions didn’t have anything to do with the financial crisis.

Plenty of people at least in the private sector have taken pay cuts and reduced hours to preserve jobs which has been remarkably successful compared to previous recessions.

Increased pay did not drive up house prices- cheap credit did.

You might have a point on Government contracts I don’t know but I suspect loss of a few government contracts is not a significant cause of recession.

don simon – Member

Significant?
Why do you want info on the “last significant” strike when I was talking in general terms?

Forget it mate – you are obviously not going to back up your wild allegation. And instead attempt to squirm, backtrack, and play word games.

wasnt it the unions who drove expansion of the public sector to record levels? was nt it the unions who insisted that the NHS should grow its budget by inflation busting amounts every year leading it to become the 5th biggest employer in the world?

I’m pretty sure Gordon Brown managed that all by himself whilst Chancellor.

Forget it mate – you are obviously not going to back up your wild allegation. And instead attempt to squirm, backtrack, and play word games.

I think it’s best you do ernesto. You’ve tried to tiwst what I’ve said, backed youself into a corner then highlighted my bad spelling.
You win. 🙄

Yeah right OK.

Increased pay did not drive up house prices- cheap credit did.

Unfortunately I can’t see how you can’t have one without the other, both increasing salaries and cheap credit played their part.
As totalshell says everyone played their part and everyone has to accept responsibility and to say that one party is 100% without responsibilty is completely absurd. 😀
I like this as an interesting model.
http://www.saludygestion.com/archives/RicardoSemler
EDITED: 😳 You should’ve waited for the 15mins ernesto, no patience, see?