What exactly do you mean by accountability ? I think all doctors would agree that they could get better at root cause analysis and become more like the aircraft industry. However see my previous post, how can you improve practice when you do not even have enough staff to do the minimum?

@ FunkyDunc – my comment refers to my experience some years ago and therefore prior to current staff shortages. Briefly I was repeatedly misdiagnosed by multiple GPs who failed to recognise a common condition. Due to the seriousness of this I contacted the regulator who were disinterested, I persevered and still received the same response. This is the same regulator that at the summing up of the Shipman enquiry was accused of behaving as a gentlemen’s club. They’ve clearly not changed their ways. Have since learned that I’m not the only patient to have received this response.

Amongst those doctors who are doing sterling work there is an alarming number who aren’t, both in general practice and hospital settings. My most recent appointment with a hospital consultant (joint head of dept) saw him tell me that he wasn’t interested in my symptoms. Is this acceptable behaviour from a medical professional? I shall be taking this further with the hospital trust as well as him, they will also be told that I’ve discovered the reason for these symptoms thanks to private testing and a private doctor’s interpretation.

This isn’t about money, this is about attitude with some doctors treating their patients with contempt. It’s just not good enough.

I’ll stop there!

Edit: have derailed the thread so shall bow out.

Amongst those doctors who are doing sterling work there is an alarming number who aren’t, both in general practice and hospital settings.

Can you quantify this, or is it just a rash statement based on personal bad experience with the NHS?

Surely your private consultant who provided diagnosis still works in the NHS, and they gave you a discharge letter which you could show to the NHS consultant?

FunkyDunc – it’s mainly my own experience and not a rash statement.

In the past I have shown NHS doctors my private test results together with private doctors’ (no NHS working) diagnosis, they’ve been dismissed and therefore ignored.

BMA “trying to bring down government”

Slight exaggeration maybe? Anyone mind if they managed it?

BMA “trying to bring down government”

Well I think they should ban any more Muslim doctors from entering the medical profession until we find out what’s going on.

In the meantime we should all rally round the government and make it absolutely clear that we won’t allow sharia law in the UK.

it’s all newspeak

A cross party group of MPs made a proposal and Hunt rejected it as a “labour move”.

For some reason the tory govt have picked this one issue as something they wont back down on

I have no idea how it ends but politics is certainly getting in the way.
blaming everyone but themselves for the events that have ensued.

Unnamed source – assume his PR guru-personally I cannot see how accusing them of “radicalising dr” and “trying to bring down the govt” in any way helps us reach a compromise or solution. Its just escalating the tension with shitty and false digs.

Major exaggeration a bit like the one about those nasty Tories privatising the NHS.

The Tories dont need the help of JDs, they are fine with Europe for the moment…..

Good piece by James Kirkup in the Telegraph

You spelt ‘condescending’ wrong

a bit like the one about those nasty Tories privatising the NHS.

Except there is quite a lot of evidence for that one – including written party policies and briefings. Including the one Jeremy Hunt co-authored.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jeremy-hunt-privatise-nhs-tories-privatising-private-insurance-market-replacement-direct-democracy-a6865306.html
http://www.theguardian.com/healthcare-network/2015/oct/02/nhs-one-way-road-privatisation

Whereas I don’t think there is much evidence that the BMA is some kind of lefty conspiracy to topple the government. (Though I don’t think they’d be terribly upset if Hunt got the boot.)

That article by Kirkip accurately describes exactly none of the Jr doctors I work with!
(It seems to have been written entirely from planet Tory.)
Ironically most JDs are normally quite right of centre (apart from the part about wanting to help sick people).
They aren’t even particularly fans of the BMA.
This dispute and especially the lies and deliberate misinformation spread by the government at the start about weekend deaths and ignoring the salary freeze for those on research, maternity leave etc have very much alienated and demoralised them.

Well, Clare Gerada thought it was a fair article. She is hardly pro Hunt.

The tragic naivety of immature junior doctors and their strike

Is the title; which then goes on to lambast doctors for saying insulting things to those with whom they disagree 🙄

He doesn’t lambast, he uses some the things that said to him to illustrate the naivety – being accused by being naive isn’t really insulting if you then present a cogent case – do you insult people if you say they are wrong?

If he’d used a lambastless headline he’d not come across so hypocritical then….

Kirkup’s article is a bit immature and I’ll informed isn’t it , no accident and emergency care is being withheld , a cost neutral proposal that preserves enhanced rates for unsocial hours is not about the money . If anyone comes across in all this as politically inexperienced it is Hunt who continues to allow himself to be presented as the figurehead for this toxic fight.

The writer does not write the headline and does not have any say- the subeditor does – often a source of tension.

teamhurtmore – Member

Major exaggeration a bit like the one about those nasty Tories privatising the NHS.

“Our ambition should be to break down the barriers between private and public provision, in effect denationalising the provision of health care in Britain”

– Tory Health Minister Jeremy Hunt

So a sweep stake on how long it takes Mr Chunt and the Daily Mail to report the first avoidable death due to the Jnr Doctors? I give it to just before the 1 o’clock BBC news

the Doctors still have good support

From that torygraph piece…

many of them do not know what they are doing and do not understand the conflict they are now escalating.

Much as I dislike the govt, I think this is true. Likewise comments about the bma not realising the hours and how hard other folk who got good A levels actually work, without being part of the on average highest paid, most secure profession, and whose training is paid for mainly by the taxpayer, with no lack of people coming forward who want to do the job…

A corollary of what I’m saying might be a faster race to the bottom in the public sector (bad). But I’ll be walking past some of those public school picketers (okay only half of them) later today, into an organisation which is shedding a third of its staff in the next year, compulsory redundancy payments under new cabinet office guidelines (clue: they haven’t gone up.) As I say, no desire to race to the bottom, I just don’t think they’ve understood their position or what they’re taking on, for a bit more pay on Saturday (or whatever.) Either way, writing’s on the wall they’ll lose.

Likewise comments about the bma not realising the hours and how hard other folk who got good A levels actually work, without being part of the on average highest paid, most secure profession, and whose training is paid for mainly by the taxpayer, with no lack of people coming forward who want to do the job…

I’m sorry what are you trying to say here?

for a bit more pay on Saturday

That they’ve not understood where they stand.

Oh and the’bit more pay or whatever’ sides were close to agreeing. What’s the huge issue justifying strike?

I’m sorry what are you trying to say here?

Maybe the OP’s trying to say that Doctors still have amongst the highest average earnings of any graduates 10 years after graduation, will continue to enjoy lifetime earnings of £4-5m and will also continue to retire with pension pots of £1-1.6m.

Many doctors are also the children of doctors and marry other doctors – putting them very firmly at the top of the list of wealthiest families – there’s some truth in the adage “ever met a poor doctor?”.

It’s also worth noting that the position of many of the JDs is that unless they get paid more for saturdays (despite other workers in the NHS not getting this, and most other comparable highly skilled jobs also not getting this e.g. pilots), they will move to Australia and New Zealand.

Both of these moves are apparently principled moves by JDs but it’s kind of ironic that their peers in these countries not only have to pay for their own education but in NZ have been scheduled on 7 day 24 hour rosters for the best part of 20 years, something the BMA continues to maintain is not possible here due to “safety”.

That they’ve not understood where they stand.

Who, because I’m not sure who you were trying to describe? Which Jnr Dr has had their training paid by tax payers? Which career are you talking about with no shortage of applicants? Which Jnr Dr is part of the highest paid?

I don’t hint you’ve understood in your bitterness of the government threatening your mystery job.

It’s also worth noting that the position of many of the JDs is that unless they get paid more for saturdays (despite other workers in the NHS not getting this, and most other comparable highly skilled jobs also not getting this e.g. pilots), they will move to Australia and New Zealand

Look everyone 5 minutes is back but still doesn’t get it.

From Roy Lilley (a criticof the govt/NHS mgmnt perspective)

“The great and the good have written letters, made statements and palavered about. None of the Royal Colleges have any clout. They live in a past when people used to listen to them.

Patients groups have vacillated, professional organisation’s have danced around their handbags, affinity organisation’s have been at their ineffective best.

The GMC have issued guidance to junior doctors thinking of joining the walk-out. In brief it says JDs should be sure there is cover and their absence will do no harm.

Useless. How is an SHO supposed to sort that out. If there is a disaster, some poor soul can expect the roof to come in on their career.

If this is the best the GMC can do its hard to know why they still exists. They claim to be a guardian of patient interests. If this is, truly, the case they should be speaking to the reality; a strike is a risk, it could do immense harm and if it does… put your registration and career in the shredder.

The DH will not back down over the contract. If they do they will be a sucker-punch for all the other NHS professionals who will soon be facing contract changes to accommodate 7-day working.

The BMA dare not give up. They face reputation damage and an exodus of members of they did. The strike is about their survival.

The walk-out is no longer the issue. It’s what happens afterwards. What comes next? Perpetual strikes? New doctors are already signing the contract, Trusts are implementing it, work-place Guardians will be in place. The die-hards will still be waving placards, the majority pleased to see the shemozzle fizzle out.”

I don’t hint you’ve understood in your bitterness of the government threatening your mystery job

Que?

just5minutes – Member

……. most other comparable highly skilled jobs also not getting this e.g. pilots

I’m a junior doctor and my husband is a pilot. He flies a maximum of 100 hours per month, whilst I can work up to 91 hours in one week alone

.

Application Of Airline Pilots’ Hours To Junior Doctors

“To cover the work of six junior anaesthetists on an annual basis would require 26 doctors if they were working within the Civil Aviation Authority’s guidelines”.

I just think the best will leave, with nurseries closed on Saturdays, JD parents with kids forced to work will do what?

The loss of progression whilst studying PhD etc means the best JDs will be deterred from entering research and will harm medicine in this country.

Maybe these changes will improve the care in the NHS, but as the government are entering into this change across the whole country without a shed of proof or a single pilot study to show it will, JDs and the BMA are right to oppose it.

The writer does not write the headline and does not have any say- the subeditor does – often a source of tension.

I certainly wouldn’t choose to reference this pisspoor headline in any sensible reporting. Pretty puerile stuff.

I do see some tactical naivety in the way the BMA JDC has handled this, and wonder whether their most potent negotiating advantage, the goodwill of the public, will wither in the months to come. From my past experiences covering previous BMA contractual negotiations, I don’t exactly see them as righteous campaigners for the good health of the NHS.

And sadly for their members, most of whom are well-intentioned, I suspect this will be viewed by government as a kind of ‘payback’ for the shambles of the GP and consultant contracts, where even the BMA could not believe how easily ministers rolled over.

The GMC have issued guidance to junior doctors thinking of joining the walk-out. In brief it says JDs should be sure there is cover and their absence will do no harm.

Which they have done.

Useless. How is an SHO supposed to sort that out. If there is a disaster, some poor soul can expect the roof to come in on their career.

They do it everyday anyway, what do you mean by a disaster?

The DH will not back down over the contract. If they do they will be a sucker-punch for all the other NHS professionals who will soon be facing contract changes to accommodate 7-day working.

Opposed to the 7 days the NHS works currently.

The walk-out is no longer the issue. It’s what happens afterwards. What comes next?

It’s the what happens next that they are striking for the introduction of unsafe conditions it’s not about Saturday pay.

New doctors are already signing the contract, Trusts are implementing it,

Trusts have refused to implement it, stop reading the Daily Mail.

Que?

You seemed afraid to mention your place of work.

This sums up the situation quite well, I think:

(hope it sizes legibly on here)

most other comparable highly skilled jobs also not getting this e.g. pilots

Last years oil priced based blip aside where no one recruited, medicine is now in 3rd place for graduate salaries ( 1, Dentistry. 2, Process engineering).

Neither works Saturdays as a rule unless it’s overtime.

Ask yourself, do you really want medicine diluted further until the best candidates give up and figure they may as well do a 4 year course in engineering?

Ask yourself, do you really want medicine diluted further until the best candidates give up and figure they may as well do a 4 year course in engineering?

Or become a pilot.

I like this.
It’s a graph, so of course I like it.

The loss of progression whilst studying PhD etc means the best JDs will be deterred from entering research and will harm medicine in this country.

This is disputable as I know quite a few scientists with PHDs from top hospitals and none were impressed by JDs research abilities.Then as a result of hospitals favouring JDs for research career progression over better, dedicated scientists, all the scientists I know left the industry

Pilots earn significantly less than Doctors and are mostly on pretty poor pension schemes as well. Nearly all of them already work 7 day 24 hour rosters – so it’s unlikely many graduates considering medicine would see Aviation as a more rewarding career alternative.