I see that Trek are launching 2 Domane models with disc brakes and also 142 bolt through rear end and bolt through front . Ignoring the merits of disc brakes on road bikes are through axles really needed on road bikes or is this just the way it’s going to go in the future ?

they make sense for front disks where braking forces will try and pull the wheel out of a normal dropout.

for rear they add stiffness.

QR’s were really developed for speed of wheel changing when racing, they’re certainly not ‘the best’ way of attaching a wheel or ensuring a stiff frame or fork.

going to be a nightmare for road races with neutral support vehicles if there’s multiple axle standards and disks about in the future though…

They’ll have QR ones for those racing for exactly those reasons. Let’s face it, the vast majority of road bike users don’t need ultra fast wheel changes during a ride or sportive and the additional 10-30 seconds that through axles will add really won’t matter. And it keeps the lawyers happy.

The inside rumour I heard a year or two ago was that QRs were coming lose on disk braked bikes, so through-axles were coming. That was certainly the case with Mountain bikes, so I’m not surprised if this is happening with road bikes.

To be honest, I find through axles just as quick, if not quicker than quick releases with lawyer tabs, and if I was going to go for a disk brake road bike (which I’m not) then I’d want them.

They don’t need 22 gears either but it’s nice to have them.

Personally, I’m holding off buying a new road bike until hydro discs and bolt thru have establishshed themselves.

I like the Domane. I’d really like to see a 5 series Madone with the new 105 hydro brake/mech shifter. That might well be my next bike.

No it’s a farce. Its odd from a money making point of view as well as trek just seem to have shot their load all one go. They could have got 3 or 4 model years out of drip feeding each new standard.

Just seems a dead end – How on earth thru axles can be used by the pros baffles me. They are going to need F1 air guns or something to change wheels

I think they’ll just end up getting spare bikes from team cars rather than doing wheel changes.

Neutral service will become impossible.

did i blink , but i have not seen the peloton using disks yet.

i dont see it coming any time soon either as i cant see what benifit it brings to them otherthan slower wheel changes , 27 different standards and different sizes of disks.

sounds like its trek pandering to the weekendwarrior MTB rider who feels like his road brakes dont work….

having been neutral service at various times in my life its hard enough as it is …. do you need front/back campag/shimano/9/10/11speed/junior block – which sounds easy till your working out the back of a roofers van and cant get the wheels out cause they are stuck in a roofing hammer/scaffolding etc etc…. rider wants wheel NOW

interesting article about it here trail_rat.

http://www.bikeradar.com/gear/article/the-problem-with-disc-brakes-in-road-racing-is-40867/

I don;t think anyone doubts that disks give ‘better’ braking in anything other than perfect condtions?

the weekendwarrior MTB rider who feels like his road brakes dont work….

well, to be fair, my ‘normal’ road brakes are completely shit if there’s even a hint of moisture around.

(even with fancy pads)

i’ve had discs on my winter/commuter bike for nearly 2 years now, they’re ace, even in the wet.

and QR’s seem fine to me…

tires seem like the weak point in the whole brake thing to me….

even in the wet my ultegras with stock shimano pads (which are renound for not being great) can slow me down quickly as i like OR can lock up both wheels instantly.

i fail to see the benifit – unless on carbon rims of course – they are scary in the wet.

maybe we should all run wider tires with nobbles on……

Neutral service will become impossible.

The pro teams are saying this about discs. At the moment it’s Shimano/Campag/10-spd/11-spd, which is tolerable….. chuck in which size disc rotor…. and then whether QR or through axle and you enter a world of compatibility issue pain.

Personally don’t see a convincing case of through axle on the road, even with discs, but I’m sure it’ll come and really make the trail road come alive…..

My experiencing (of admittedly one road bike with discs)is that under heavy breaking the forces twist the fork and QR so much that it comes loose. Hence, I can see through axles being useful on road bikes with discs (plus why the big companies want to move to them to avoid lawyer bills and bad publicity).

However, for any kind of road racing, for the reasons above it’s going to be a nightmare. And it matters, I know someone who missed a top 10 at the Nationals due to a bad change.

It’s a simple thing to specify a standard for neutral service…

However, for any kind of road racing, for the reasons above it’s going to be a nightmare.

Very true. However, does anyone know what percentage of road bikes are actually used for competitive racing?*

*No, a sportive isn’t.

even in the wet my ultegras with stock shimano pads (which are renound for not being great) can slow me down quickly as i like OR can lock up both wheels instantly.

Exactly my finding. Disks are for carbon rims and bad weather. I don’t care for carbon rims personally. As I said earlier. just wait to see mechanics prying apart pads on a wheel change by the side of the road.

However, does anyone know what percentage of road bikes are actually used for competitive racing?

50% in my household – albeit in a limited sample size (n=6) 😉

It’s a simple thing to specify a standard for neutral service…

How? Easy at ProTour level, but the UCI and it’s rules are the same for everyone down to BC 4th Cat. Most governing bodies try and avoid different rules for different levels.

the issue with disks is also caliper alignment.

even small variations in hub spacing can cause problems.

from my own experience with mtb’s even differences in how tight a QR is can cause some rub when replacing a wheel, switching to a different make of hub and/or disk will be a big issue, even if the standards for axles and disk sizes is agreed.

[edit]

even in the wet my ultegras with stock shimano pads (which are renound for not being great) can slow me down quickly as i like OR can lock up both wheels instantly.

this was exactly the same argument that was made for v-brakes when disks first started becoming popular/effective on mtb’s. It’s not untrue but it ignores a lot of issues that affect how effective brakign is like modulation, consistency, not having to wait 3 revolutions for moisture to get rubbed off a rim. All of those things make disk braked bikes less tiring to ride, quicker to corner and more predictable for those riding around you.

Of course the big issue is going to be when there’s a mix of rim and disk brake sin the peleton on a wet day.

It’ll be carnage as the disk braked bikes top and the rim braked ones all run into the back of them.

Do road bikes need through axles

At the front, yes. Because it’s the right way to do it.

QRs are – when taken in context as part of a disc brake system, and I phrase this in professional engineering terms – “a bit shit”.

Neutral service will become impossible.

No, UCI just need to standardise the disc size and attachment.

but when you can wear out a set of v brake pads in 5 muddy miles in winter i see the point in disks ….

as it stands the only time i change my brake pads is when i go from my alloy to carbon rims.

its not like i dont ride my bike or nowt.

Of course the big issue is going to be when there’s a mix of rim and disk brake sin the peleton on a wet day.

It’ll be carnage as the disk braked bikes top and the rim braked ones all run into the back of them.

I think that was the reason given by the UCI for not allowing disc brakes in road races at the moment .

the front of the pelotons tires still wont grip the tarmac any better…

btw

through axel OR just put the caliper in a better location – change the forces. one allows more sales and forces the buyer into a specific standard that may be around or may not. the other allows for free movement of parts and any ole supplier….

Very true. However, does anyone know what percentage of road bikes are actually used for competitive racing?*

Or that involves a neutral support car.

the front of the pelotons tires still wont grip the tarmac any better..

But gosh darn it they’ll be able to lock the wheel a lot easier.

Come on man, this is progress.

through axel OR just put the caliper in a better location – change the forces.

who makes that fork, tr?

This is what is causing all the discussion at worldtour level right now. I think it’s getting to the point where the UCI are going to need to get in front of it and make a decision.
I can’t see them allowing a gradual transition, it will have to be all or nothing, all discs or none. Then they are going to have to come up with a standard, what it is, is far less relevent than the standard being there.
The longer they wait the harder it will be as more manufacturers come up with different standards for thru-axles/modified QR/hub width dimensions/disc sizes etc.

If the UCI decide that from 2018 every worldtour race will be disc only with 160f/140r using a standard thru-axle design then I don’t see an issue, problems with speedy wheel changes and pads fowling on discs are mitigated by everyone being in the same boat and neutral service remains as it is now.

I think it’s going to happen well before 2018 .

the only reason Id be interested in disks is to prolong the life of my 600 quid road wheels. As above, I can lock my brakes in the wet so power is not currently an issue.

On a cyclocross bike I can totally see the point, but roadie not convinced

cotic do.

not saying thats road bike material but it could be adapted into a lighter stiffer model.

I should probably point out that as far as racing goes, pro or amateur I don’t see any compelling reason to switch to discs. Modern rim brakes are more than good enough, money would be much better spent on making them working better with carbon wheels or vise-versa.
If you take racing out of the equation then the manufacturers can fight it out amoungst themselves for what standards work best outside of racing.

Edit: 2018 was just a date I pulled out my ear to make my point.! 🙂

However, does anyone know what percentage of road bikes are actually used for competitive racing?

The issue will be that whatever way the top level goes the rest of the industry is likely to follow and adopt as ‘standard’. Until then we’ll have a plethora of axles/disk sizes etc.

Slightly off track but when competitors started skating rather than the traditional “loipe” during cross-country ski races the officials got round any problems by taking a vote before the race – if a majority wanted to skate then everyone had to skate. In part this was because XC ski racing requires a groomed track and it’s either one style or the other, you can’t mix them.

There’s lots of rules in cycle racing – would a few extra about brakes be much bother?

You could really easily address my only concern with road skewers and discs, which is loosening and wheel ejection: (oh, alright, and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope 😆 )

On my road fork, the axle ends of the wheel already don’t protrude right to the outside edge of the dropout. All they’d need to do is allow the outside of the dropout to be unslotted and beefed up a tad and then to take out the skewer before fitting the wheel. Would add maybe 10 seconds to a wheel change in a race – might even help locate the rotor and the caliper a bit.

After that, race bikes would need some means of allowing the caliper to be moved laterally a mm or two to cure minor rubbing after a wheel swap and we’re good to go

and then to take out the skewer before fitting the wheel

what you could do then is anchor the nut for the skewer to the frame so you only remove the QR lever and bit that goes through the wheel.

Then if you beefed the bit that’s attached to the QR lever up a bit and made the nut bigger you could have a stiffer fork and rear triangle.

And then to save weight you could make this beefed up part act as the axle for the wheel, not just a way of anchoring it to the frame.

we’d just have to think of a word or phrase for it then.

we’d just have to think of a word or phrase for it then.

incompatible with current equipment ?

30/04/2014

What’s new about Domane Disc? We’ve taken the award-winning smooth, efficient, stable Domane you know and love, and added the option of disc brakes and thru axles to select models.

What’s the advantage of disc brakes on a road bike? Disc brakes offer more consistent braking across all weather conditions. You get more power, more control, and better modulation compared to standard caliper brakes. Simply put, disc brakes are better at being brakes!

What’s the advantage of thru axles on a road bike? Thru axles significantly stiffen the frame-wheel interface for more steering precision and better cornering, thanks to less flex in the system. They also ensure that the wheel is precisely placed in the dropout each time it is installed. This helps eliminate disc rotor rub from the wheel being crooked in the dropouts because of improper installation.

If disc brakes are so great, shouldn’t everyone have them? Not necessarily. Yes, disc brakes offer superior braking performance over calipers; but the brakes, rotors, and wheels are much heavier than their rim brake counterparts, not to mention more expensive. Plus, there are simply more rim brake wheel choices available, particularly on the high end, and customers are more likely to have a few pairs of those already in their stable. But for that adventure-seeking customer looking for supreme braking performance in all conditions, disc brakes are the way to go.

What is the front and rear dropout spacing? Both axles run the common standards of 15 x 100 mm front and 12 x 142 mm rear.

Is Domane Disc compatible with quick-release wheels? Yes. All Domane Disc models come set up with thru axles, but are convertible to QR if you’re looking to run an existing wheelset. The rear converts to the 135 mm QR disc standard.

Which side does the lever go on with the front thru-axle? One of the beauties of our interchangeable dropout system is that you can swap the front dropouts from left to right. That means that if you’re clinging to your inner retro-grouch, you can put the lever on the traditional side (left)—or you can keep the lever out of the way of the rotor by putting it on the non-disc side (right). It doesn’t matter to us, as long as you’re smiling and having fun on your ride. Or suffering so hard that you’re on the verge of tears and crying out to mommy for milk and cookies. Whatever works for you.

Trek are hedging their bets slightly with this one though .

incompatible with current equipment ?

but disk braked road bikes are already incompatible.

It’s like the mtb switchover to disks, there’ll be a lot of people with expensive kit that is, effectively, obsolete (especially if the disks are mandatory for racing above a certain level) but there’s no way to create safe, modern, disk brake frames, forks and systems without adopting some new standards.

Trying to soldier on with the existing QR system on the basis of backward compatibility that won’t be possible anyway seems, well, silly.

[edit] or you can adopt some complex system of interchangeable dropouts like Trek have 😉

OR just put the caliper in a better location

Yeah but that looks a bit shit so it’ll never catch on 🙂

As to most of the points above, it won’t happen until everyone makes the switch. How long that takes or organise is anyone’s guess. 2 years I reckon but it could just as well be 5.

And yet again, to anyone posting about discs and power, you’re missing the point. It’s about control. Even in the dry. I was sceptical until I made the switch on one of my bikes (since it also does CX and I’m fed up wearing out rims). I now notice the limitations of calipers on the other road bikes where I never did before.

All of those things make disk braked bikes less tiring to ride, quicker to corner and more predictable for those riding around you.

Probably true for mtbs, but on the road, you hardly every need to brake.

never noticed that but more predictable …. if my experiance of a couple of amateur infested road races and sportives are anything to go by the last thing any of them need is the ability to stop quicker….

they are unpredictable enough as it is.