So. Back in the dim and distant past (2019 actually but ain’t that a long time ago now) I was done for driving without insurance. Said offence was my fault because I changed insurers and didn’t send off the paperwork. Idiotic I know, but there was no intent.

However, prior to this I moved house and whilst I informed the DVLA to change the address on my driving licence, I didn’t inform them re my V5, because I thought that one meant the other. I accept this was my mistake and I should have done more research.

The net effect of this was that the usual gubbins re driver ID etc went to my old address and I was unaware of anything until a bailiff got in touch in November asking me to pay a rather large fine, which I did. I also immediately updated DVLA re the V5.

Now I find that unbeknownst to me I have been prosecuted for an RT88567 – also known as “Failing to give information relating to the identification of the driver of a vehicle when required”. This has been through the court system, all without my knowledge as all correspondence has been going to the old address, despite me having updated the DVLA, and I have been convicted with points and a rather large fine.

The first I knew about it however was a couple of days ago when I got a letter from the DVLA asking me to surrender my licence as I have been disqualified for reaching 12 points.

Having spoken to the courts I am making a Statutory Declaration which allows my case to be reheard. So here’s the nub. I have the option of pleading guilty or not guilty. A guilty plea means that sentence will be done remotely but I can plead my case. Not guilty and it goes to court.

My dilemma is that the only reason I didn’t respond is that I was unaware of the requirement, otherwise I would of course have responded. Does that cut any ice? Can I say “I was unaware of the requirement. Even though I know it was ultimately my fault, it was as a result of an innocent mistake on my part and there was no intent, therfore Not Guilty M’Lud”

Or is it the case that the court will say that “that’s as may be, but ultimately I bear responsibility and no knowledge of the requirement, in these circumstances, is not a valid reason to plead not guilty” and therefore my only option is to plead guilty and throw myself on the mercy of the magistrate?

Just to be sure on this, I accept that I messed up and that this is my fault. I’m not trying to get out of that and it has already cost me financially. Lessons learnt and that. However, I don’t want to plead guilty to something if technically that wouldn’t be the case given the circumstances.

Thanks in advance, any advice, experience. words of wisdom, tutting, finger-wagging, insight much appreciated!

Don’t think ignorance of the law is a defense. I reckon you’re best off pleading guilty and hoping that combined with a mitigation plea will work. Pleading not guilty when you are isn’t likely to work and will result in a court appearance and almost definitely a less favorable outcome assuming you are convicted.

Might be worth tea and biscuits for this one – I can predict a certain amount of hand wringing and people on their high horses

My guess would be that ignorance of the law is no defence for breaking it IANAL

Good luck!

plead guilty and mitigate.

I don’t know the answer but you are right to consider the plea carefully, as I understand it can affect the options available for prosecution. For example, if you plead guilty, my (very vague) understanding is that the best outcome is the minimum charge/penalty for the offence.

This is based on a colleague at work who kept speeding and going down bus lanes, he pleaded guilty thinking it would help things along, until the court/lawyer or someone basically said you will lose your license (and job) on a guilty plea, and to change it to not guilty as that then gives the court the option of lighter outcomes.

You’re basically Hitler.

I’d throw away the key.

/STW

LOL Sharky!

But no mention of baby robins!

Surely the owners/tenants of your old place just redirect or return to sender? May be worth checking if they did…Utter ballbags if they didn’t. In that case I think you may* have a case as all correspondence from courts/dvla has a return address. Of course, if they binned it you’re screwed.

Thanks all, it wouldn’t be Singletrack without a bit of hands being wrung and general piousness. That being so, I’ve laid in copious amount of tea and biscuits and have already donned sackcloth and ashes. My missus is fetching the flagrum from the dungeon as we speak.

Interesting opinion on sentencing options, hadn’t thought of that to be honest..

This is probably one for a lawyer right, rather than a mountain bike forum.

Pay some money, see a solicitor, get them to advise and represent you.

Surely the owners/tenants of your old place just redirect or return to sender? May be worth checking if they did…Utter ballbags if they didn’t. In that case I think you may* have a case as all correspondence from courts/dvla has a return address. Of course, if they binned it you’re screwed.

I’m not sure they did return to sender. Courts haven’t mentioned it if they did. Not that I’d rule out the courts losing it themselves tbh. Regardless, my lack of knowledge of the requirement to give details, or the subsequent proceedings isn’t really the issue. I can prove I wasn’t at the address.

It’s more about whether or not the fact that I didn’t know of the requirement to provide the driver information – even though that is as a result of my honest mistake – means that technically I’m not guilty. On the basis that I can’t be guilty of something that I didn’t know I needed to do.

Or whether the court says “The system is in place to allow us to make contact to establish the right details. Your failure to ensure that you had provided the correct information means that you are guilty regardless of intent or otherwise” or somesuch.

You’re basically Hitler.

I’d throw away the key.

Not small, dumpy and moustachey enough. Heydrich maybe? He was properly evil too

But no mention of baby robins!

I’d like to take this opportunity to clarify that whilst I accept that I am a BAD PERSON, no small feathery, hairy or furry creatures were harmed, directly or indirectly, as a result of my actions, or lack thereof

What points were you on before this offence, and what is the range of sentencing options for the offence in court?

The question is whether the magistrates have any discretion in reducing the points tally, which as far as I can see they don’t, although my google-fu is weak, and there may be some ‘extreme hardship’ type line you could try if you need the car for work, transporting sick children etc. So six points may well be six points regardless of plea. They have discretion in terms of the fine for a guilty plea.

Either way, if you’re going to court, definitely guilty plea combined with earnest pleading. There is no way you are going to be given not guilty when the Notice of Intended Prosecution went to the wrong house because you didn’t tell the DVLA your car had moved.

Seek legal advice.

Slater Gordon for example  have a team that do nothing but RTO.

This is probably one for a lawyer right, rather than a mountain bike forum.

I suspect that that’s where this is heading. Great thing about this forum though is that everyone (for the most part) has jobs outside of mountain biking.

There’s even some lawyers on here.

No harm in testing the water and who knows, one of them might even get a brief..

Having recently discovered that my own slack approach to admin meant I was driving without an MOT for several months I can understand a small degree of cock-up.

I am no lawyer, but it sounds like you don’t have much of a case to plead anyway, you screwed up and for whatever reason didn’t get the rather official looking notices from you last place of residence.

All I can say is enjoy the insurance costs once you have you license back, 5 years of elevated premiums! I know as many years ago I also suffered a similar fate after the introduction of the speed camera to my home town, all of which didn’t work and then did in a very short space of time.

For obvious reasons I think many of these offences (keeping a V5 up-to date and so on) carry strict liability.

You could probably get some opportunity to plead your case, but it’s still going to be along the lines of “Sorry your Honour, the dog ate my homework” ie a series of excuses about why you didn’t do what was required of you, or failed to reasonably try to find out what the extent of your liability was. Magistrates sometimes take a dim view of this sort of lack of admin.

As I said, get some legal advice

Get yourself over to the pepipoo forum. They’ll be able to advise you better than we can

My advice would be go to Citizen’s advice or find a legal expert to discuss this with. It must come up all the time.

As a side note and not trying to rub it in, but I do not understand why people move house & don’t use the Royal Mail re-direction service for a minimum of 12 months to catch any stray post.

Either way, if you’re going to court, definitely guilty plea combined with earnest pleading

Absolutely not. Get a solicitor involved. They will advise you properly.

From my own experience, back when I was a young oik I was arrested for drink driving. I blew positive at the roadside, I later blew 3 times over the limit at the police station. Open-and-shut case, guilty plea = 2 year ban, 10 points and likely community service…. except I only drove my car because I had been told to by a police officer. I spoke to a solicitor because I knew I’d been stitched up. He told me to plead not guilty and let it go to court. Police never showed up for 3 court dates, magistrate set a final court date in which one of the two officers finally showed up but couldn’t corroborate his verbal account with the account in his notebook. I was given a chance to provide mitigating circumstances, in that I was acting under instruction of a police officer. Still found guilty, but with extenuating circumstances. 12 month ban, no fine, no community service, no points. Probably fair given its an absolute offence, but it still smarts a bit given I had no intention of of driving and only did so when explicitly instructed to by the police officer.

The point being: get proper legal representation.

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=50188

s. 172(7)(b):
the person on whom the notice is served shall not be guilty of an offence under this section if he shows either that he gave the information as soon as reasonably practicable after the end of that period or that it has not been reasonably practicable for him to give it.

until he actually knows a request under S172 exists then it is not reasonably practical for him to reply.

I found that tidbit with a bit of googling. I don’t know if that is useful or not but it seems unfair that you can be prosecuted for not replying to something that you could not have known about (even if you should have, under some separate law, notified the DVLA of your change of address).

This seems like the sort of situation where the stakes are high enough that a lawyer could make the difference between a bad day in court (fine, a few points and a rap on the knuckles) vs a life-changing day (driving ban, large fine, years of higher premiums). No brainer.

Erm, dumb question time, is there an easy way to check where a car is registered to then. I know I changed my details with the DVLA back when I moved but no clue on the car. asking for a friend who thinks paper is mainly for lighting the log burner.

I don’t normally have much sympathy for people who have committed enough offences to get their license revoked, but it does seem a little harsh to have no insurance, failure for information, and (presumably) an elevated fine all at once.

Worth reading that Pepipoo thread to the end…she wrote to the CPS/Chief Constable and asked nicely and they dropped it so she just got done for the original offence of speeding! #unexpected

Looks like immediately updating the V5 was a good move on the part of the OP, though.

Dear Chief Constable XXX

On 31 March 2010 I received a summons for failing to give information relating to the driver of a vehicle for an alleged speeding offence on 25 September 2009 Notice no xxx. The summons was the first communication I had received in relation to this matter and I took immediate steps to give this information to you on 5 April 2010. I confirmed that at the time of the alleged offence I was the driver of vehicle xxx.

I intend to plead not guilty at my pre-hearing on Tuesday 11 May. My defence is that I did not respond to the NIP or follow-up letter as it was sent to my old address – which I moved from in August 2009 and so did not know about it. I left a forwarding address at my old address and they have forwarded some mail to me. But they do not remember either receiving or forwarding on the NIP or follow-up letter.

Rather than go through with court proceedings which have an unclear outcome, I am writing to ask if there is the opportunity of me paying the original fine and endorsement to you, if you cancel the proceedings. Could you let me know if this is acceptable to you?

Yours sincerely

this chap http://www.counsel.direct/ always seems to advise quite well on petrolheads

not that I read it of course, but it might be worth putting on there first anyway https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/forum.asp?h=0&f=10

You need to find out if the judge has a dog, then you can take appropriate action.

Is this completely separate to the driving without insurance conviction or are they linked? What were the circumstances in respect of which you were required to identify the driver?

plead guilty and mitigate.

This. You are not disputing any facts. You’ve otherwise acted in good faith, albeit via ignorance. You paid the fine immediately. These are all mitigating circumstances. I’ll get you some advice from the other side of the bench when Mrs TiRed comes off the phone…

One presumes you were not on nil points at the offset?

I’d like to take this opportunity to clarify that whilst I accept that I am a BAD PERSON, no small feathery, hairy or furry creatures were harmed, directly or indirectly, as a result of my actions, or lack thereof

How can you be sure? Perhaps the letters are going to your old address…

I am not sure I fully understand the circumstances (would be interested to know what they are) but I agree you need to speak to a solicitor (I am a lawyer but not a criminal one).

S172 contemplates valid service if sent to the last known address at the time of the summons. I assume at the time the summons was dated you hadn’t told the DVLA or a change to the registered keeper’s address. I don’k know if it’s a defence that you had told them of a change in your address for licence purposes but a specialist defence lawyer will be able to tell you.

S7 gives you a defence if you couldn’t reasonably practically have provided the information. Again, a specialist will be able to tell you the case law on whether this overrides s9 or not (ie: whether failure on your part to make arrangements for mail to be forwarded and/or the dvla to be informed of the change to the registered keeper’s address means you can’t rely on the “not reasonably practicable” defence).

In cases like this there’s a lot of value in asking someone with day to day knowledge of how it’s been interpreted in previous cases. There’s lots of specialist defence law firms out there that will give you a free consultation.

Seems you failed an attitude test in absentia.
Looks a bit double jeopardy but legal advice needed. It’s a lot for an omission but shows how careful Yoo/we need to be.
OH “taxed” our vehicle and all was fine, 6 months later we got a “is this vehicle SORN’d?” letter, turns out the DVLA didn’t fully process the online payment due to a glitch. So even though we got a payment receipt and a payment was processed the “tax” wasn’t valid. Absolutely no way we could know that.

Thanks for all the input guys, more complex than it initially seemed I guess. For clarity I was convicted in absentia and fined for the insurance offence, so they knew it was me regardless of the failure to provide info.

First I knew of anything was a bailiff getting in touch to politely enquire if I would consider paying the fine (for the insurance) which I did. This all happened back in October/November of last year. I decided not to appeal anything at that point (and funnily enough the bailiff didn’t present it as an option) as I coudn’t see the point. Guilty as charged M’Lud on that one, albeit ’cause I is a numpty.

The initial hearing for the failure to provide info only happened in May and the court hearing (at which I as convicted, 6 points and £600 smackers, thankyouverymuch) happened on 9th July.

Following on from that Pepipoo thread it seems I MAY have a case under section 172(7)(b) and equally I MAY have a case on the basis that I’ve already been convicted and fined for the original offence of no insurance. What a minefield!

Guess I’ll be looking for a free consultation from somewhere..

Should also point out that back in November, immediately after I was notified by the bailiff, I got in touch with DVLA and updated my V5. If that makes a difference?

plead guilty and mitigate.

This. You are not disputing any facts.

perhaps the legal system needs to be less binary. I vote we have a third plea option of ‘don’t feel guilty’ 🙂

I am not sure I fully understand the circumstances (would be interested to know what they are) but I agree you need to speak to a solicitor (I am a lawyer but not a criminal one).

No worries. I guess it plays out as follows:

– Moved house and didn’t take out a forwarding address with Royal Mail. New owners of house have never forwarded anything to me.

– At time of moving notified DVLA of change of address for licence. Erroneously assumed (never make assumptions kids!) that this covered V5 as well

– Separately at later date changed car insurance provider. Failed to submit correct paperwork meaning insurance not valid

– Therefore done for driving without insurance

– And done for failing to provide info. At this stage I am assuming that the one is linked to the other. Though how they can be doing me if they didn’t know it was me is starting to make my head ache!

– Because I hadn’t updated the V5 and hadn’t sorted an RM postage divert (I did make verbal arrangements with new owners but  they never forwarded anything) I was unaware of ANY proceedings until bailiff called re insurance fine and unaware of the failing to provide until DVLA got in touch a couple of days ago to say it would be awfully nice if I could send them my licence seeing as I won’t be needing it for a while.

– Even stranger, when I go on gov.uk to see driving details, it shows the three offences (I also have two SP30s and 6 points, hence the ban) but under the info for the MS90 (they seem to use a different code) it states £660 fine and NO POINTS. WTAF.

Kafka would have a field day

Ok, if the second charge relates to the same offence I don’t see how you can possibly be guilty of failing to provide details of the driver for an offence you yourself have been convicted for. That’s a legal absurdity and I reckon a semi completely road traffic defence specialist will have lots of ideas that will help.

Failure to Identify Driver

Ok, if the second charge relates to the same offence I don’t see how you can possibly be guilty of failing to provide details of the driver for an offence you yourself have been convicted for. That’s a legal absurdity and I reckon a semi completely road traffic defence specialist will have lots of ideas that will help.

I think you’re right, that is where I seem to be getting to as well. However, I’m assuming that the “Failure to Provide” is linked to the insurance offence. Unless there’s some other offence lurking out there as well, but given my details have been correct with the DVLA for approx 8 months now, I would have thought it would have found its way to me.

One other thing. When I spoke to the clerk at Manchester Mag court, she told me that after the initial arraignment in May (Single Justice Procedure) that there was no reminder/info letter sent out to me, apparently because Bolton Mag court don’t send letters. Even if it would have been sent to the wrong address, there must be some duty to inform of the procedure and notify the trial date??

The whole thing sounds like a complete mess tbh. The last thing I would be doing in your position is pleading guilty unless that’s the advice you get from an actual proper defence lawyer that knows their onions.