Fitting some new windows to the house but rather than replace, we are looking at enlarging two by approx 1/3rd and a further one is a ‘floating bay’ like this

But we want to knock the wall through and build down to create a window seat (and we are also going to extend the depth of the window so the bottom of the frame is approx 2ft from the ground

I have been on the planning portal and it isn’t clear – we aren’t making a bay window as such (which we would need planning for) just building down.

So do I need planning for any/all of these changes????

Ta!

You don’t need it if the replacements are ‘similar’ which is suitably vague but I’d say applies. Assuming of course you have permitted development rights (not a conservation area, national park, new estate, etc)

Best just to speak to the local authority. Almost certainly doesn’t need PP, but why risk it for a few £?

Contact them. Everywhere has slightly different rules and ways of interpreting them.

Best just to speak to the local authority. Almost certainly doesn’t need PP, but why risk it for a few £?

Because if it’s anything like my local planning dept, you’ll still be waiting for a decision in 6 months.

Best just to speak to the local authority. Almost certainly doesn’t need PP, but why risk it for a few £?

Because if it’s anything like my local planning dept, you’ll still be waiting for a decision in 6 months.

Really? For this sort of query I am surprised.

Because if it’s anything like my local planning dept, you’ll still be waiting for a decision in 6 months.

Is one of the reasons I was wondering. The window fitters says

‘it probably doesn’t need it and they won’t act unless someone complains’

which I don’t think is likely as the property is relatively tucked away for an estate house (ie, it’s at the end of the cul-de-sac at the bottom of a bit of a dip and the ‘front’ of the house isn’t actually at the very front as there is a dirty great big attached double garage with a pitched roof projecting off the front to the right of the window we want to open up a bit.

Have a wander round locally and seen if you can find another house that’s done similar and ask them?

If you do find a similar situation and you’re still not sure, report them to the council and see what happens 😈

Otherwise, the only way you will know for sure is to ask your local planning department

Planning may not notice or do anything without a complaint but if it should have planning permission then it will probably show up in a buyers survey if you ever plan to sell.

I wouldn’t do something like that based on a vague assurance from the window-fitters. Five minute chat with the planners with some basic drawings would be my approach.

Five minute chat with the planners with some basic drawings would be my approach.

hahahhahahhhahahaha.

You haven’t dealt with Harrogate Borough Council have you?

I have what appears to be a website dating back to the Dark Ages to contend with and have to make a payment of nearly £60 just for them to look at a ‘pre-application’ consideration.

God, really? £60 for a load of non-committal waffle from a planning officer?

This is taken from a Home Building article I was reading the other week…

You do not normally need planning permission to replace or add new windows in the original walls of your house — but you may need permission if conditions were attached to the original permission. Double glazing can be installed under PD, providing the building is not listed. For new or bigger windows or doors, you will need to follow Building Regulations guidance. Bear in mind that bay windows are classed as extensions. Planning permission to insert a new window or door opening is not required as long as any upper floor windows on the side elevation are glazed with obscured glass (level 4 or 5 obscurity). They must also be fixed into a non-opening frame (unless the opener is more than 1.7m above the floor of the room in which the window is installed).

Taken from HERE

Also…

Whilst this article provides a summary of what you may be able to do under Permitted Development, you should always check with the Local Planning Authority to ensure you do not require planning permission, as in some cases PD rights may have been removed.

I’d bang in a pre-planning app, we’ve just done it in lakeland to understand if somethings Permitted Development or not. Make it easy to read, then after you get the letter back saying they’ve assigned it get on the phone for a chat. Easy.

Bear in mind that bay windows are classed as extensions.

Thing is with mine, the bay window is there but it is floating and all I am doing is building down under it to make it a real bay.

So what rule applies there? PP or not PP

So what rule applies there? PP or not PP

That’s something only your council planning department can confirm as it’s down to their interpretation of the rules and any other local variances

Five minute chat with the planners..

Will result in the wrong information, you going ahead with teh build, then having to apply for retrospective PP with the fear of having to take down your lovely new cladding…

Or so I’m finding…

DrP

Phone ’em up.
Never had any trouble with planners when I was in the trade, and they tend to be more helpful with private enquiries.

APF

As above, i’d put in a planning app. At the moment you have a projecting box window, you want to alter this so that it is a traditional bay window, which could increase the floor area of your home. If you follow the regulations this is an extension, and therefore could require planning permission.

You are likely to need planning permission if you are building anything which projects beyond the original primary elevation. Is my free advice to you, as a planning lawyer.

Any time spent confirming the details with your local planning dept now (however long it takes) and even if ultimately they say ‘just crack on we don’t care’ is much less of a balls ache than dealing with them afterwards if it turns out you did need permission.

Bear in mind permitted development rights in England changed on 15th April 2015 to remove many rights that previously existed relating to extensions beyond original elevations. I’ve just finished giving a run of seminars on the changes.

If you follow the regulations this is an extension, and therefore could require planning permission.

And presumably Building Control

Phone ’em up.

As above, not an option, £60 fee for them to review it and advise if I need to go through planning.

You are likely to need planning permission if you are building anything which projects beyond the original primary elevation.

It doesn’t project any further, just below…

But it does project from the original elevation.

Your options are:

A) deal with planning now. Time consuming and a pain but all t’s and i’s crossed and dotted.

B) just build it and hope i) you either don’t need planning and/or building regs or ii) you do but they don’t care enough to take enforcement action.

But if you’re wrong and they do enforce against you…if you thought (A) above was time consuming and balls aching then you’ve got some real fun times ahead.

It’s a simple choice.

But it does project from the original elevation.

But it doesn’t project any further at all – I am not going outwards by a single cm.

OK, I’ll do it

You do not need planning permission, just go ahead and do it*

*this advice is based on what it is presumed you want to hear, not the general consensus of the responses to your question. Therefore if it all goes tits up, many people will say ‘told you so’

HTH!

If you speak to them and they give advice make sure you get it clarified in writing. It will bite you in the ass if you don’t because their verbal advice is usually (in my experience) wildly inaccurate and simply constitutes a verbal contract that is not worth the paper its written on.
So, either contact a planning consultant and pay them to guide you or pay the council directly. Either way its prudent to get it done properly.

I’m not going to argue with you. We disagree and that’s fine, but my view is that the building operations you propose do extend beyond the original brick elevation.

Because there is another point of view (i.e. the one I’m putting forward) which those who have the ability to serve formal enforcement action against you could legitimately adopt (which then you’d have to deal with) it means that talking to those people to discover where they are on the point is probably a worthwhile exercise. They might not care at all. They might care an awful lot. I don’t know.

You also have no idea whether your house is subject to a planning condition requiring that it be built in the current layout.

Or you could just adopt the view “I’m right and only my interpretation could possibly be correct” and go ahead without talking to anyone. It’s not my house and not my headache if it all goes belly up re: planning or building regs either now or later when it comes to selling the place.

You asked for opinions on a forum and you got some.

Piedi +1 😆

You do not need planning permission, just go ahead and do it*

*this advice is based on what it is presumed you want to hear, not the general consensus of the responses to your question. Therefore if it all goes tits up, many people will say ‘told you so’
No it’s not, but I don’t agree that it is projecting any further like some are saying it is, because it is not projecting any further!!!

Here is a quick mock-up…

Original

What I want to do

If you speak to them and they give advice make sure you get it clarified in writing.

I *CANNOT* speak to them, I have to pay £60 for a pre-planning application, to which they will give a response in writing and if I do *not* need planning then the letter states as such.

The simple answer is that we don’t know – you need to speak to your local planning people.

Therefore I expect most of the responses from now on will simply be:

Speak to your local planning department

EDIT: – then pay the £60 and be done with it

What makes you think your planning dept will take 6 months?
Write a short email, wait a week, phone up to ask.

I think they have a statutary duty to respond in 6 weeks… mine have

Mine was 8 weeks for a full planning application from date of submission to published decision

What makes you think your planning dept will take 6 months?

Well they say 15 days to respond to the pre-planning and then a further 6-8 weeks if I need planning. But they caveat it by saying they will not guarantee either timescales….

If it goes beyond 8 weeks you can appeal to the Planning Inspectorate against the non determination of your application.

£60 for pre app with a turnaround of a couple of weeks sounds ok.

Or you could apply for a certificate of lawfulness of proposed works under s192 of the Town and Country Planning Act 1990 if you think the works fall with the Town and Country Planning (General Permitted Development) (England) Order 2015.

Or just do it. It’ll probably be fine. 😕

No it’s not, but I don’t agree that it is projecting any further like some are saying it is, because it is not projecting any further!!!

I think what people are say is that the planning people may consider the bick wall the current front line of the house. You want bricks to be in front of this original line of bricks.

So while it is obvious you are technically correct that no part of your house is any closer to the road how confident are you that the planners will consider the edge of your window the front rather than the original brick wall?

Becuase given that a load of strangers with no skin in the game, including a planning expert, all said the wall is the front line if it were me I’d not be confident at all.

Then pay the £60 and get it in writing. In the grand scheme of the work your doing, £60 is nothing. 🙄