Disability and the minimum wage

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  • Disability and the minimum wage
  • athgray
    Member

    https://www.bbc.com/news/election-2019-50684582

    Tory candidate saying people with mental disability could work for less than the minimum wage.

    She links to a report from the Spectator from 2017 by someone with a daughter with a mental disability.

    The article is very specific to how a mother felt about her daughters situation. This is not the case for everyone.

    She stated that people with disability often dont know the value of money, hence they need not get the minimum wage. I worked with a colleague with a serious learning disability, that did have his own accommodation and was paying his own bills.

    Employers should get more tax breaks, and employees should be getting the minimum wage IMO. To do what she is saying would require some degree of vetting on the level of mental capacity to understand finances before determining an employees pay.

    Any thoughts?

    footflaps
    Member

    Tory candidate saying people with mental disability could work for less than the minimum wage.

    I’m quite surprised she thinks they should be paid at all (given her political leaning), so this is a major breakthrough in dragging the Tories into the 21st Century…

    I would assume JRM would expect them to be sold into servitude at a nearby factory.

    kerley
    Member

    Any thoughts?

    Yes, the candidate should get less than minimum wage for being a massive ****

    Premier Icon frankconway
    Subscriber

    There’s a video clip on the GE thread.

    athgray
    Member

    I wondered if it was elsewhere. I am trying not to dip too far into it. It is too depressing.

    Premier Icon winston
    Subscriber

    I imagine the point she was trying to make is that it may in certain circumstances be better for the individual with learning difficulties to be employed in some capacity at less than the full minimum wage than not be employed at all.

    However how this is done, under what supervision and with what long term objectives to improve the wellbeing of the individual and their ability to add value to wherever they are working is a very difficult balancing act.

    She clearly has not made a very good job of explaining herself and that wasn’t helped by the original twitter picture she commented on in 2017 with a single sentence.

    The phrase ‘they don’t know the value of money’ is pretty awful too – why would you say that? Its so patronizing as to be an obvious no no for anyone to spout in public.

    taxi25
    Member

    She stated that people with disability often dont know the value of money, hence they need not get the minimum wage. 

    This is a very poor reason, pretty offensive actually. Wages should be based on the ability to do the job not the value you attach to money. Some disabled people can do particular jobs to a very acceptable standard and should be paid the going rate.
    There is a discussion to be had about the less able disabled being supported in work. How can you encourage an employer to give a disabled person a job when that person’s productivity is going to be considerably less than an able person ? Being allowed to pay a lower wage might be part of it. Money is the most obvious benefit to working, but there’s plenty of other things that make working hugely beneficial to disabled people.

    MSP
    Member

    I might well hate myself for defending a tory but…. I assume she badly worded her argument. At the moment the employment market favour the employer, with the would be employees competing against each other for jobs. It would be a rare employer to take a perceived risk on a mentally disabled employee. So the current state of affairs is that it would be virtually impossible for the mentally disabled to find employment.

    If the costs for employment could be made more competitive ie by state assistance either to the employer, or by allowing less than minimum wage and living costs being subsidised to the employee, then it is more likely that they will be employed, which is good for them.

    Then if more mentally disabled people enter the general workforce some of the fears and prejudices could be broken down and hopefully become seen as normal.

    Of course if that isn’t what she meant, then she is a **** of the highest order. And really any prospective MP should be able to adequately explain their position given a couple of goes if at first they are misunderstood, she appears at least to have failed that test.

    Premier Icon bikebouy
    Subscriber

    This is pretty offensive actually.

    FIFM

    It is a Torytard, they only know two words.

    faerie
    Member

    There are already government funded schemes such as Access to Work and Remploy which provide advice and financial support to both employers and employees up to about £57k. You could argue that they should be paid more than the minimum or even the supposed living wage as living costs are often higher than average.

    athgray
    Member

    Of course if that isn’t what she meant, then she is a **** of the highest order. And really any prospective MP should be able to adequately explain their position given a couple of goes if at first they are misunderstood, she appears at least to have failed that test.

    That’s what I thought.

    My initial reaction was that she was a **** of the highest order. Then I recalled hearing about a work scheme for people with intellectual deficits for which they got a small stipend Most if not all lived in supported/sheltered housing and received various benefits. So they didn’t need to work to keep a roof over their heads etc. Then some well meaning person decided that it was discriminatory not to pay them minimum/living wages. So the program had to close, because they couldn’t afford that. If that is the type of thing she is referring to, I understand where she is coming from, although she said it in a master race kind of way.

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Subscriber

    although she said it in a master race kind of way.

    She didn’t put forward a reasoned argument about subsidised living and so on. She said ‘THEY don’t understand the value of money’. Which is **** appalling and bordering on Nazi levels of scumbaggery.

    People in general don’t know how lucky they are let alone the disableds. In the good old days, when Heartbeat was real, they’d have been locked in a cupboard and liked it. Along with pregnant teenagers.

    mattyfez
    Member

    I can’t belive anyone’s defending what she said, utterly disgusting.

    Premier Icon epicyclo
    Subscriber

    It’s surprising to see a Tory advocating something other than euthanasia for disabled people.

    Are they modifying their secret eugenics policy, or are they simply relying on substandard wages to starve the disabled to death?

    Who me? cynical? 🙂

    She didn’t put forward a reasoned argument about subsidised living

    She did say that they don’t need minimum wage though, which the example I recall supports. Not only didn’t they need it, it was counterproductive. The people working at that scheme were absolutely devastated when it closed.

    Maybe they do understand money, maybe they don’t they certainly wouldn’t be alone in that.

    Premier Icon Sandwich
    Subscriber

    Autism is a mental disability, some of the people dealing with it are very high-functioning indeed. To lump all mental disability together is highly offensive. It’s referring to all Asian people looking alike levels of scumbaggery.

    (I hope that my rage has allowed me to write without offence, my apologies if I have offended any of you).

    exsee
    Member

    Gene pay equality is the next big thing.
    #me1&3\4

    As pointed out above, a disabled person has to put in more effort so why aren’t they paid more.
    How is it fair to pay someone the same or more because they have a natural advantage, it’s easier for them so they should be paid accordingly. Scientists have shown that your genes can make a huge difference to your earning potential which is disgusting in this era. Equal pay is a must.

    revs1972
    Member

    Autism is a mental disability

    🙄 nope

    Premier Icon mattbee
    Subscriber

    Surely it’s the job role that you are paying for, not the person fulfilling it?
    X amount of productivity has value Y, whoever is delivering X should receive Y regardless of their gender, age, mental capacity, emotional state etc….

    How anyone can defend the sentiment of her statement or the statement itself is staggering to me.

    ”Oh, he’s a bit special so we charge him more for his fish and chips, he doesn’t understand the value of money…”.

    twinw4ll
    Member

    I’d probably ask the good folk in question to give their opinion.

    Autism is a mental disability

    🙄 nope

    Is it not? I work with a guy with ASD, he told me that it technically is classed as a disability. Apparently because of this, if he applies for a job, he HAS to be interviewed. He found this quite irritating as he didn’t know if he was being interviewed because he was being considered for the role, or because of the ASD.

    For what it’s worth, if he hadn’t mentioned the condition I wouldn’t have known. In hindsight, I think that working in engineering has put me in contact with a good number of people with personality traits that could be associated with ASD.

    athgray
    Member

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/lord-freud-tory-welfare-minister-accused-of-claiming-disabled-people-are-not-worth-the-minimum-wage-9796062.html

    The Spectator article mentions a link to the comments above where Lord Freud said that some disabled people were ‘not worth’ the minimum wage. Worrying use of language.

    Autism is a mental disability

    🙄 nope

    I’ve worked for many years with children and adults (along with families, carers, teachers and mental health-professionals) who struggle to cope with learning disabilities, and I have to disagree with both of you. Although it is not nearly so black and white as you claim.

    ‘ASD is an umbrella term which includes autism, Asperger syndrome and pervasive developmental disorders.

    People with autism can also have a learning disability, ranging from those requiring minimal support to lead an active life through to those requiring lifelong, specialist support. Recent research indicates that around 20-30% of people with learning disabilities have an ASD.

    Being diagnosed with Asperger syndrome does not constitute having a learning disability.

    60-70% of people who have an autistic spectrum condition will also have a learning disability’

    Source: https://www.mentalhealth.org.uk/learning-disabilities/a-to-z/a/autistic-spectrum-disorders-asd

    Premier Icon Rusty Spanner
    Subscriber

    Everyone is entitled to the minimum wage.

    To suggest otherwise is a reflection of your own prejudice.

    Premier Icon MoreCashThanDash
    Subscriber

    As I’m married to a highly qualified professional with a disability, who has had to work twice as hard as her colleagues to get where she has, I probably don’t need to express my opinion.

    Mind you, she appears to have been the only person in the UK who saw their disability benefits assessment increased under this government.

    revs1972
    Member

    Is it not? I work with a guy with ASD, he told me that it technically is classed as a disability.

    It is a developmental disability. People with autism etc, can also have mental health issues, but autism in itself is not a mental health issue.

    gordimhor
    Member

    Thanks for clearing that up Malvern Rider. I am a support worker working mainly with learning disabled people, some of whom have paid jobs. There is some assistance for employers who take on disabled people whether LD or otherwise. The minimum wage is not necessarily a living wage. It should not be cut under any circumstances, if you do it’s no longer the minimum wage.

    My daughter who has aspergers works on her own on a remote estate in the north of Scotland. She has a good relationship with the current owners of the estate but she would certainly be vulnerable if the law was changed to allow payment below the minimum wage and the ownership of the estate change.

    In my opinion this candidate for election knew exactly what she was saying.  It is to put it mildly a disgrace

    The problem arising here with definitions. Definition as per medical diagnosis on one hand, and OTOH the requirement to (sometimes differently) define the ‘effect’ of any impairment (as a ‘disability’) for legal/other reasons.

    from Mind’s webpage concerning disability and discrimination

    Is my mental health problem a disability?

    You can ask yourself these questions:
    – Do I have a mental or physical health impairment?
    – Is it long-term (meaning lasting more than 12 months or likely to do so)?
    – Does it have a more than minor adverse effect on my day-to-day living, if I discount my treatment or medication?

    https://www.mind.org.uk/information-support/legal-rights/disability-discrimination/disability/#.XeuRNy-nzmo

    I’d advise all of us to err on the side of no ‘definitive’, er, definitions – as they generally encourage yet more misunderstandings (if that is even possible!) of a vastly misunderstood subject (mental and developmental health/disabilities). Also, when mental illness and intellectual disability occur together it is described as a ‘dual diagnosis’.

    As for the Tory candidate, can we build her a workhouse? She can both staff it and work it. No others need apply.

    kerley
    Member

    t is a developmental disability. People with autism etc, can also have mental health issues, but autism in itself is not a mental health issue.

    It can be a mental disability though. Mental health and mental disability are not the same, i.e. you can have a mental health issue and recover from it. You can’t recover from autism.

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