She is not “out of touch”, she knows exactly what a house draped with George Cross flags means in an area where the anti immigrant vote and sentiment is high.

She has been sacked because for any party to be the biggest at the next General Election, that party has to not scare away the voters and media organisations that are part of the wave of anti immigrant feelings.

**** depressing really.

What he said ^^^^

Plenty of MPs of all persuasions manage to keep schtum about their feelings for the electorate they represent. It’s bad for business otherwise.

then we should not complain that we dont get honest MP’s if we treat them like this when they are honest.

UKIP appeal is, as well as other types, to that kind of voter.I think it was a valid point crudely made and the right wing media is jumping on it as it gives CMD a day off as he threw the kitchen sink at it and he got another kicking.
Best deflect from that eh and discuss labour as we did last time when the tories lost with a defecting MP to UKIP
Good day to bury bad news etc

Amazing how this story brings out so much bigotry and stereotyping.

Not often that I feel sorry for Wallace, but poor showing aside, he must have been looking forward to the spotlight being on the Tories and the Lib Dems, only for a great own goal to be smashed between the posts.

Two meetings to decide she had to go – I bet there were some interesting email and phone exchanges in-between.

UKIP may spout crass policies but they have been smart at campaigning on local issues while the mainstream parties have been focusing on national even regional ones. Being outdone by UKIP is a sad reflection of the paucity of thinking among the big 3.

I’m not sure what can be done to repatriate the English flag – it is a great pity that it’s become shorthand for UKIP/BNP/Little Englander attitudes and stereotypes.

The Union Flag has been partly repatriated – but still has negative associations with quite a few people. My father calls it the butcher’s apron.

Probably had to wait to see how things were trending in Twitter 🙂

Binners I disagree.

Its exactly the same attitude that Gordon Brown expressed about ‘that bigoted woman’. She wasn’t bigoted. She was expressing a legitimate concern. But the labour party is now so far removed from its core vote, that its legitimate concerns are just airily dismissed.

I thought she came across as a bigot, Brown was right and when pulled up his response should have been “I stand by my comment”.

On the subject of national flags, they are undoubtedly associated with nationalism (pretty much by definition), the issue is whether English (or any one else’s) nationalism is tinged with racism. England doesn’t really hold together well a a nation amongst rational reasonable types – hence the horrible debate on devolution for the English regions, or counties, or cities, or something that no one can fathom – and it becomes easier to taint the English flag with racist overtones. No one I know regards the Cornish flag as racist because it represents a clear nationalist (ish) agenda that is more about who they are and who belongs (a positive) that who doesn’t belong (a negative).

It is possible to celebrate your nation, your ethnicity etc without denigrating others – it’s just that all to often denigrating others is all a nation has in common.

PS I’ll be the occasionally kilted, rugby top wearing, but never flag carrying economic migrant Scot with a wonderful English wife. Proud of both countries really, though both have their problems.

Storm in a tea cup though, in two days time no one will remember the flag tweet…..

Emily Thornberry is a New Labour and EU supporter, I wouldn’t vote for her, but don’t accuse her of things which she isn’t guilty of.

Fair enough. But the greatest criticism of any politician (which you can level at Milliband in heaps) is that they’re not very politically astute. Tweeting something like that is political suicide! As she’s found out. Seriously? What was she thinking? Absolutely effing clueless. Like most of the present labour front bench!

The irony of this was that I saw it straight after watching Andy Burnham on QT, where, once again, he proved the only member of the labour party who seems to be aware that theres quite an important event coming up next May, which the labour party could well do with getting its act together for!!!

I’m not sure what can be done to repatriate the English flag – it is a great pity that it’s become shorthand for UKIP/BNP/Little Englander attitudes and stereotypes.

Let them have it, makes it easy to identify them from a distance, so it’s actually quite useful.

allthepies – Member
Probably had to wait to see how things were trending in Twitter

Indeed!!

Really? I’ve seen exactly the same in numerous very safe Labour seats![/quote]

Hence http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/ukip-the-by-elections-and-labour – and they’re not actually so safe.

Don’t you think it more interesting that (unlike the Tories) Labour got less than half as many votes as at the GE? 😈

As I see it a flag isn’t in itself a racist symbol, it is of course a national one, there is of course nothing wrong with a bit of national pride however “fervent nationalism” is often where racists and bigots retreat when they start feeling beleaguered by what they perceive as an overwhelming tide of lefty political correctness, and/or DM rants over immigration convince them marauding Islamic hordes are about to descend on the pub and force Sharia law in them…

It’s the “I’m not a racist, I’m just proud to be English” thing…

The thing is most of us, including those who criticized Emily Thornberry, knew from personal experiences precisely what that image was alluding to, it was a key image that 99% of the UK would recognise and understand the subtext without a caption TBH… Racists do have an affinity for flag waving nationalism…

This whole thing is actually a gift to the Tories, they got a shoeing from another turncoat saving his seat, you’d have thought the story would be about their failure to hold a seat in a by-election and some of their support ebbing away to UKIP in the run up to a national election, but one thoughtless tweet from a Labour MP with a name that just sounds a bit too posh, and Boom! Dave and his mates are saved from some of the trickier questions while Nige now gets some ammunition to target labour supporters with, she most definitely should have handed in her shadow ministerial role, not because she was “Wrong” exactly, but because she’s basically given the competition some significant help, MP’s shouldn’t be allowed twitter or FB accounts, for the good of their own careers…

Ultimately the saddest thing in all of this is that a large number of us now, subconsciously or not, make that association between display of our national flag(s) and Racism (excepting perhaps major national sporting events), We can thank the EDL and other similar organisations for that, there’s even a bit of a connotation for the Union flag in certain contexts IMO (Britain first anyone?)…

The far right definitely try to ride the Nationalism / Jingoism bandwagon and do so pretty successfully at the minute… Joint the dots and tell me I’m wrong…

Tweeting something like that is political suicide!

then you are as much a part of the westminster media fuelled cartel as she and ed are

What is so wrong with going look this is the type of voter UKIP appeal to ?
Lets stay on message eh and not discuss the issues and present some sort of media friendly bland homogenised non controversial PR speak BS or else the media will be all over us. The public get what we deserve from politicians bland PR savvy focus group led nonentities never saying what they or we think lest it upset the media bosses and causes a controversy. That is the real tragedy here

At least have MPS w, on all sides, who say what they really think and mean what they say rather than what we get today from them all. At least with UKIP you know what they stand for and they mean what they say

One thing which was great about the Commonwealth games – it was reclaimed for just a little while. Unfortunately that hasn’t really lasted, though to be fair I still associate the England flag more with football supporters than racists (not a footy fan, so not really my thing – can’t remember the last time I watched any part of an England game, or indeed any other game – but that is at least OK).

There was campaign sometime ago to take back the English flag as it has become associated with racism in a way that the Saltire is not for example. It’s clear this daft politician was trying to imply that the Rochester election was based on racism purely because there was an English flag flying and that’s why she had to resign.

Co-incidently here is what the Labour campaign manager has had to say

Douglas Alexander, Labour’s election strategist, says “angry” Ed Miliband did not “hold back” from berating Emily Thornberry over her white van gaffe.
More significantly, he warns Labour has no core vote he can rely on, and says voters feel “angry and alienated” and they must be shown deep “respect”.
This is something Ukip have been saying for months – to their advantage.
“Political parties cannot take any community, any voter or any class for granted,” he says. “Anybody who wants to stand for election next May has to start with a fundamental and deep respect for the voters, whom we are asking for support. In that sense, the idea you can rely on any nation, region class or community has just gone.”

So who deserved to resign

Mitchell?
Thornburry?
Both?
Neither?

She could have said, ‘look at this, I’m going round there right now to talk some sense in to them’ but she didn’t she said ‘ha-ha, scumbags’ (she didn’t but you get my drift). I think that’s the problem. It’s not OK to be derisory to the public when you’re an MP, if you don’t agree with them you make the argument. That’s why she’s gone.

More significantly, he warns Labour has no core vote he can rely on

They did have, in Scotland. They’ve screwed that up.

The belief that your country is superior to other countries because you were born in it?

What is so wrong with going look this is the type of voter UKIP appeal to ?

Because, as it happens, he didn’t even know there was an election going on. She didn’t know which way he was voting – could have been a labour voter for all she knew.

Put it another way, if my lad hung an England flag outside of his bedroom window on the week of an international match, and a politician tweeted a picture with the implication that we were a pile of racists and this was what they were up against, I might be a bit miffed.

The appearance of sneering and the lack of judgement is the issue.

Thornberry’s house this morning 🙂

Thornberry’s house this morning

Where’s the white van?

😀

then you are as much a part of the westminster media fuelled cartel as she and ed are

Mate – much as I love you, and am in awe of your long flowing Samson-esque locks, you don’t half talk some nonsense at times.

If she hasn’t got the political nouse to fathom how that tweet would have been perceived – Ha, ha! look at these Clampets with their England flags and their shitty van – then she’s utterly clueless. She just gift wrapped the Tory presses headlines for them, and gave the Tory’s, and UKIP, an open goal to accuse the labour party of being a bunch of aloof, and distant Islington liberal snobs (which they clearly are!)

****-wittery of the very highest order. Its like an episode of the Thick of It. You can imagine his reaction…

The parties are now so indistinguishable from each other, the ‘staff’ (with a few notable exceptions) are interchangeable.

As opposed to when?

They did have[/quote]

Which is kind of the point (snipped deliberately as the rest of your comment is irrelevant to the point, and in a sense inaccurate). Respect for somebody who’s prepared to acknowledge the existence of the elephant.

More significantly, he warns Labour has no core vote he can rely on, and says voters feel “angry and alienated” and they must be shown deep “respect”.
This is something Ukip have been saying for months – to their advantage.
“Political parties cannot take any community, any voter or any class for granted,” he says. “Anybody who wants to stand for election next May has to start with a fundamental and deep respect for the voters, whom we are asking for support. In that sense, the idea you can rely on any nation, region class or community has just gone.”

Good.

Its about time MPs realised they are public servants and are there to represent the views of their constituents.

….in recent years you could be forgiven for thinking it was the other way round, that an MP was some kind of higher functioning being who existed purely to lord it over the electorate and tell us what to think.

If an MP wants to stand based on his/her personal views then fair enough….but don’t cry about it when those views don’t match those of the public and the MP or their party gets a kicking.

….surely an MP doing their job properly goes out into their community and canvasses the opinions and views of the constituents and then returns to Westminster to represent those views?…if said MP doesn’t like the views of the public they are supposed to represent then they can resign and find another job, they wont be missed.

Of course the great lie is revealed above, the real crime of Thornberry and the Labour Party is that they are trying to ride two ponies in the same race.

In her video she’s spouting exactly the Labour Party line, the ‘it’s not racist to be concerned about immigration’ ‘tough and fair about immigration’ ‘Labour will make immigrants wait two years for benefits’ and ‘we admit we got it wrong on immigration’

While at the same time looking down their noses in disgust and mocking exactly the people they have written those policies to appeal to.

Pretty much nailed it there Ninfan. Which is another illustration of whats wrong with politicians. They spout all this, and its just patronising twoddle, because its fairly obvious they don’t mean a bloody word of it! And if they did get elected on this particular platform, have absolutely no intention of actually doing anything at all about it. Once elected, it’ll be quietly dropped, along with everything else they made vague noises about, but no solid commitments, to make way for self-interested business-as-usual

So, in the view of the STW-ers was the real issue the flag of St George or the fact that there was a white van parked outside ?

FWIW my view is it was the van, had it just been a photo of the house she might have gotten away with it.

@JY I don’t understand why you are trying to pigeon hole @binners as a being as bad as the “westminster elite” when he is pointing out the obvious, that the tweet was political suicide especially coming from a shadow minister who you would imagine has had numerous training sessions and advice in social media use.

the ultimate irony was that white van man wasnt aware of the election and like half the electorate there he wasnt going to bother voting anyway

thornberrys tweet will haunt labour now all the way to the election
while defecting torys(voters and mps) will keep cameron awake at night

its great to see such opposition to our corrupt and depressing political sysytem, if only farige and ukip wasnt such a great steaming pile of shit*

*imho 😉

Binners, yep, was just the same with Gordon of course, ‘British jobs for British workers’ in public, ‘just a sort of bigoted woman who said she used to vote Labour’ in private!

thornburys tweet will haunt labour now all the way to the election
while defecting torys(voters and mps) will keep cameron awake at night

Agreed

Ninfan – a good article in the Guardian today by John Harris, with exactly the point you’ve just made

Labour believes it can speak to two supposedly very different separate audiences without either of them actually noticing.

This article was linked from an earlier thread. Interesting comparing the polling from 6 weeks ago to the actual result – which party lost significant share 6 months out from a GE?

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/oct/07/labour-defeatism-rochester-byelection

I would just like to say that as a proud English man and (very) anti-racist, i am offended by the fact that people would hold me in the same regard as those who degrade our flag with racism.

I’m not sure who offends me more though, those who tar me with the same brush or those that bring the down with their extreme views. It all seem pretty bigoted to me!

I bet there’s no end of racist Scots out there but if you saw one waving a flag you wouldn’t think, “oh there’s a racist Scotsman”, you’d just think “oh there’s a Scotsman”.

I do not fly a flag over my house or hang one out of the window.

So why would anyone imply that you might be racist? I don’t get this post.

I actually have a bit of sympathy for Thornberry on this, and it’s not often I’ll defend a labour politician. Since when has the racist reactionary white working class been the labour party base? As ninfan says, the problem is they’re trying to ride two horses, on one side the idiots like this white van man, and on the other the naturally left leaning multicultural educated metropolitan masses. Personally I think the labour party should be targeting the latter and leave the bigots to UKIP, but that would result in inevitable defeat. Which leads me to my main criticism of the labour party in that it is now simply a vehicle for career politicians to achieve power, rather than a campaigning organisation fighting the corner of normal working (and non-working) people.

I bet there’s no end of racist Scots out there but if you saw one waving a flag you wouldn’t think, “oh there’s a racist Scotsman”, you’d just think “oh there’s a Scotsman”.

Depends if they’re waving the Scottish flag or the Union flag.

Spot on Ninfan.

While at the same time looking down their noses in disgust and mocking exactly the people they have written those policies to appeal to.

Don’t think that’s a uniquely labour party problem

@ben, that was my point. If you see a Saltire you associate that with a nationalistic Scot. A nationalist Englishman with the flag of St George is a racist !