Diet and Nutritional Advice ???

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  • Diet and Nutritional Advice ???
  • Premier Icon BigJohn
    Subscriber

    You will find the STW hive will fall into 2 camps.

    One half will repeat endlessly "simple: eat less exercise more" and the others will argue among themselves over protein glycaemic metabolite guff that nobody understands.

    Fortunately one person knows what he's talking about (iDave) but he may not want to fight off all his regular naysayers if he pops his head above the parapet.

    TandemJeremy
    Member

    There is good advice on the NHS website.

    Unless you are an elite athlete you do not need any special diet. A decent balanced diet as per the NHS website is fine.

    Diet is one area where there is a supreme amount of guff – rely on people with proper qualifications – dieticians. Anyone can call themselves a nutritionist and many are complete charlatans as in McKeith.

    In summary. A normal balanced diet is fine. To lose weight you need to take in less calories than you use. Ignore all the twaddle about special diets and supplements – its designed to part fools from their money.

    alexxx
    Member

    Sorry to sound like a bast but its so easy to want to know exactly what protein or carb or % to have but none of that makes a crap bit of difference until you've actually got to a state of near perfect fitness for the extra %

    If you want to lose weight (like john said 2 groups)
    eat less, exercise more, no excuses, treat yourself if you do especially well, dont be hitler but also dont go back to your old ways…. stick to wheat, brown stuff, water

    minimise sugar and fat

    it cant be any more simple, its just people making excuses not to get out NOW and do a run or a walk or a ride. thats the stuff that will benefit you 1000% not knowing you had 1 special k too many and now you need to walk an extra mile.

    iDave
    Member

    epic fails already from TJ and Alex

    off to the office, might post optimal advice later if I can be arsed, with no book to sell or fee's to charge

    coffeeking
    Member

    This is one of those areas I'm in agreement with TJ on, but I do think there are some finer details to be worked around (like not cutting cals too far) but the evidence from programmes like "supersize vs superskinny" is sufficient to point out that for weight it doesnt matter what junk you eat, it's about cals – most of the superskinny people on it have eaten junk food, just small quantities of it, lived off chocolate and crisps. They have nutrition deficiencies but are skinny because they don't consume 2K+ cals a day in total. The reasons to avoid fat and sugar are other health grounds of course. At the end of the day a balanced diet deficient in cals is about the only thing that makes me lose weight.

    jonb
    Member

    For biased information a lot of the people who make products for this kind of thing have guides. Try searching the big brands like high5, science in sport etc.

    There is a book that is quite good with this kind of thing "the time crunched cyclist" offers general advice.

    If you want advice specifically for you in person then I suggest you find someone who offers coaching services. British cycling may be a good place to start or the back of some magazines (particularly roadie ones).

    TandemJeremy
    Member

    Why is it a fail dave?

    I prefer to go with the advice of the professionals

    finbar
    Member

    minimise sugar and fatcarbohydrates

    Corrected that for you.

    Premier Icon cnud
    Subscriber

    Being a former lard bucket and all round beer / chips / chocaholic just out of interest I am trying to assertain how to get advice similar to what is offered to professional sportspeople. i.e diet analysis of Protein,carbs,fat etc consumed. I've looked online and drawn a blank, surely something is available for the masses. I'm not going to my GP for him to tell me smaller portion sizes are the way to go. I want to know if what I eat now is balanced right for my sport, anyone know where to get these services for joe public?

    Premier Icon cnud
    Subscriber

    Thanks for all the responses so far, personally I am of the calories in vs calories out opinion in terms of weight loss but that's not really what I'm after. I use a small food & exercise tracking program(instead of a diary which is the only decent bit of advice I recieved)so I know what I eat but I don't know if that's right for my personal lifestyle, exercise commitments and biking. Goverment food pyramids or NHS advice (whilst the link was appreciated) is for the masses I was looking for tailored advice and I can't seem to find it.

    finbar
    Member

    You could buy Matt Fitzgerald's book, i haven't read it but it's got some good reviews:

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Racing-Weight-Matt-Fitzgerald/dp/1934030511

    alexxx
    Member

    sorry to sound like an arse but how far wrong can you really go if your eating healthily in a good quantity, if your staying away from all the processed stuff and sugary drinks and exercising loads your onto a winner surely

    TandemJeremy
    Member

    Why do you need tailored advice? Are you an elite sportsman?

    beware the snake oil salesmen

    hilldodger
    Member

    I prefer to go with the advice of the professionals

    ummm, that'd be Dave then 😛

    Anyone can call themselves a nutritionist and many are complete charlatans as in McKeith.

    Just like anyone can call themselves an expert on just about anything based on Wiki-wisdom and prejudice 🙄

    Premier Icon BigJohn
    Subscriber

    A few years ago, Matt Hart, who is a contributor to singletrack wrote a series of articles on nutrition. You might be able to google for them.

    All to do with the relative proportion of calories that should be derived from carbs (mostly) protein (not as much) and fat (not a lot, but more than you might think), and when to consume them (before, during and after rides).

    Or say pretty please to iDave.

    Nice to see I was spot on in my earlier prediction. And my other prediction a few weeks ago is looking good too.

    Roy Hodgson, that was.

    TandemJeremy
    Member

    Big John – you were spot on.

    Its a classic that people think there is some complexities to diet. There simply is not. Its really very simple and much of the guff that is spouted has absolutely no knowledge base behind it. The basic errors people make when discussing nutrition is quite astonishing

    A classic example is the much recommended 4:1 carbs to protein recovery drink one. Go and check the basic research behind it.( I have) it comes from limited studies in the malnourished elderly. The effect has been replicated slightly in extreme endurance athletes. it has never been shown to have any relevance to ordinary active folk like us.(that I could find – and I followed all the links from the companies who make it that I could find)

    some nutritionists have good knowledge but many do not. Mckeith is a prime example of a charlatan masquerading as a nutritionist who talks serious guff

    Keva
    Member

    I know what I eat works perfectly for me but would it be any good for anyone else ?

    probably not 'cause I eat a shed load of food for my size and you wouldn't believe a 60kg little bloke could eat so much.

    Kev

    cynic-al
    Member

    alexxx – Member
    sorry to sound like an arse but how far wrong can you really go if your eating healthily in a good quantity,

    +1

    Eat sensibly, it's not rocket science. Even when training a lot I've not worried about it, just eaten more carbs (of the right type).

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Subscriber

    I also know what I am talking about 🙂

    It is calories in vs calories out ultimately. But you can make it a lot easier to ride and be happy on fewer calories by knowing some stuff.

    The problem isn't limiting calories, the problem is limiting them such that you feel ok, lose weight and can still ride well.

    Go and check the basic research behind it.( I have) it comes from limited studies in the malnourished elderly.

    Don't start this crap again TJ. The addition of protein to recovery drink is indeed under debate. However the use of carbs to promote quick recovery in time for another ride is absoutely not in dispute. So recovery drink works brilliantly, as I can testify. Necking 500ml of coke also works quite well.

    TandemJeremy
    Member

    Molgrips – I don't dispute that you need to replace carbs and water after exercise – however that is not what I said.

    A recovery drink is no better than water and carbs in any form – a classic example of the guff.

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Subscriber

    I do not agree, TJ. I have found that Torq is better than SIS, which is better than plan carb powder. Coke is also better than SIS.

    If you tell me I am imagining it, I will track you down and F*CKING WELL lamp you one. You would have to be some MASSIVELY arrogant c*ck to sit there at the other end of the country telling me all my observations and experience are wrong based on no personal experience at all.

    Wouldn't you? 👿

    soobalias
    Member

    i knew someone on here knew what they were talking about, but i didnt think it was iDave – is this a new alias for someone else.

    TandemJeremy
    Member

    Anecdote is not evidence. Heard of placebo effect?

    Find some real research that shows this – and have a look at the ingredients on this stuff.

    Go on – you might just learn something

    Edit – I have no idea about iDaves knowledge on this. I have no memory of his imput into these threads before

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Subscriber

    Heard of placebo effect?

    YOU PATRONISING B*STARD!

    and have a look at the ingredients on this stuff.

    I know exactly what's in it. Why do you assume I don't?

    I've found all sorts of research last time we argued about this, but you chose to ignore it all. Remember?

    TandemJeremy
    Member

    IIRC you found no relevant valid rigorous peer reviewed evidence at all.

    What is in this stuff then if you are so knowledgeable?

    Premier Icon BigJohn
    Subscriber

    It's like déjà vu all over again.

    iDave's been iDave for about a year and, yes, he used to be somebody else.

    But both of him have written books and coached TdF and Olympic riders. He's the man I'd go to for advice.

    TandemJeremy
    Member

    Sorry – I can't resist

    I'll shut up BigJohn – I just cant resit pointing out the absurdity of Molgrips position. The man who drinks enough sports drinks to add up to the best part of a kilo of refined suger a week who wonders why he doesn't lose weight.

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Subscriber

    Torq recovery contains 4:1 carbs:protein (agreed its under debate if you need the protein), ribose, HMB and glutamine.

    Maybe you didn't see my posts last time or something but I did find articles about the "glycogen window" for carbs to be taken post-exercise.

    As we all know necking a load of sugar causes your insulin levels to spike, which promotes the absorbtion of glucose from the blood, storing it as glycogen in muscles. Well, after a good hard ride your muscle glycogen stores are low. So a load of sugar/carbs helps restore muscle glycogen and aids recovery. And it works better the sooner you do it after exercise.

    Problem with that?

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Subscriber

    Hey, how about this one:

    http://faculty.css.edu/tboone2/asep/Niles1Col.PDF

    That's the FIRST hit on google academic papers search. You didn't look very hard did you TJ?

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Subscriber

    The man who drinks enough sports drinks to add up to the best part of a kilo of refined suger a week who wonders why he doesn't lose weight

    You have problems reading these threads. I had a successful period of losing weight a couple of years back. I was taking the same amount of energy/recovery drink as I do now, I just did more base training.

    Seriously – read my posts properly. There are three here you need to look at.

    OP THIS was recommended to me by a sports professional. It's very accessible, not patronising and has lots of sensible, easy to follow advice. It might be a good starting point for you. Good luck.

    My 2p anyway.

    EDIT : try and ignore the above argument. These things always flare up 🙄

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Subscriber

    What I get annoyed about is TJ absolutely flat-out refusing to listen or accept ANYTHING I say because he thinks I'm a gullible marketing led fool. I can't stress how much this really f*cking annoys me since I take great pride in my ability to analyse and understand things, as it's something I value.

    TandemJeremy
    Member

    Molgrips

    Torq and Sis recovery are both mixes of whey powder and maltodextrin with a few bits of vitamins. virtually identical – but according to you one is better than the other and coke ( which is just sugar, water caramel and is better than one of them? Thats why I laugh at your conclusions. One whey / maltodextrin mix is better than coke and the other is not?

    As for the research – I followed the sparse links from the manufacturers and did not find that one. The actually looks like a resonably well designed study if very small scale – 8 respondents completing the trial. I would prefer to see it in a more well known journal but is makes for interesting reading

    As I repeatedly said I have no issues with the carbs after exercise – thats just basic physiology.

    Edit – molgrips _ when what you say is such clear nonsense I will say so. The guff about coke being a better recoery drink than a maltodextrin / protein mix but not as gooda as another maltodextrin / whey mix?

    Big John – I realy am sorry * tips hat*

    iDave does sound like he will know – but how importnat is it to the non elite athelete?

    I will shut up now – I promise o matter how much more ill informed guff Molgrips comes out with

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Subscriber

    virtually identical

    Apart from the things that are not the same. Like ribose and HMB.

    Thats why I laugh at your conclusions.

    I've never had much luck with SIS, but I don't know why. In theory it should work but it doesn't seem to do as well. I do not know why.

    And here's the thing. I've actually tried these things and evaluated them – you are just coming at it from a semi-informed theoretical point of view. Surely my experience has to count for something?

    I suspect you ride quite differently to me; you're probably physiologically quite different and you're much older too. And you don't train for performance either. So your riding experiences are surely quite different.

    Please pay me some respect.

    This is what winds me up the most about you – you are absolutely cock-sure that you know all about this subject, and if anyone comes up with something that doesn't fit with your ideas then you brand them an idiot. Rather than listening to their arguments and seeing if they make sense.

    You do this on just about every thread you wade into, not just these diet ones.

    EDIT:

    I promise o matter how much more ill informed guff Molgrips comes out with

    WTF?! I post scientific papers all bloody day (even ones you accept are interesting) and you call me ill-informed? WTF? How the flying F*CK can I become better informed then?

    Christ on a stick.

    TandemJeremy
    Member

    I am quite prepared to learn stuff and change my mind in the face of good evidence. However anecdote is not evidence.

    I do accept thats an interesting bit of research you quote and I don't dismiss it out of hand.

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Subscriber

    Well thankyou.

    Also, please understand that I am not a fool and I have valid experience.

    Please?

    TandemJeremy
    Member

    Seeing as you asked nicely. 🙂

    sorry I was a bit bored and provocative but I do find some of what you say ludicrous. You do seem rather keen to believe in the magic fairy dust in the supplements

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Subscriber

    No no no.. I don't believe in the marketing nonsense at all.

    A long time ago I discovered that taking carbs whilst riding DRAMATICALLY improved my riding. I was young then, early 20s, and I was very much a sprint athlete. I used to ride hard all the time and my base fitness was terrible meaning I was consuming and using large amounts of carbs. So when those carbs ran out I was a mess. Which is why taking carbs whilst riding had a big effect. I used to buy High5 cos it's what my local shop stocked.

    Then I found they made recovery drink which I tried, but I wasn't riding often enough (and was filling my face enough) for it not to make a lot of difference.

    Well then I started riding with Torq and training 3-4 times a week and limiting calorie intake. So recovery becomes an issue. When they brought out recovery drink I tried it and found it made a big difference in my ability to ride hard one day then recover for the next day's ride. The post-ride muscle ache I was so familiar with was almost completely gone.

    Subsequently I found myself without recovery drink, either having run out or forgotten to bring it and it really sticks a day or two onto the recovery from a big ride. So I either bought something from an lbs (which is usually SIS) or I grab a can of pop.

    I have also taken ribose as a supplement on its own – not sure about that one. I've taken HMB for muscle-growth which didn't have a noticeable effect either (and tastes foul). The other supplement on the list of 7 recommended by someone (perhaps Armstrong's dietician) was L-Carnitine. I took this for a while and it had an effect, but not altogether desirable. I found myself fine for endurance riding but somewhat less able to put the hammers down the way I like. This is not what the literature says is meant to happen, but that was what I found.

    So you see, I am not being marketing led. I hear (or am told) about something, and if it seems interesting and the info is reputable enough I give it a try, and see how it affects my riding and training.

    Now I appreciate this is not a full double-blind test, but I've got no vested interest in WANTING any of this to work, so I am somewhat critical to begin with. There may well be other factors involved which is why I continually work on all aspects of my lifestyle – food intake, sleep, types of riding (for psychological and physical reasons), different sports, different working practices and so on – to see what helps me feel the best, get the most quality riding done and ultimately race the best.

    scottyjohn
    Member

    A good site to look at is livestrong.com, where you can set a weight loss goal, and see what it is you are eating. it also suggests alternatives to stuff you have eaten which are better for you. Just gives you a better idea of what your consuming. And theres lots of tips and advice on there also

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