What nealglover said above about his German friend…

I have a bessie mate who lives in Germany, married to a German girl, with whom I get to spend a bit of time, including a couple of weeks last year. I love visiting Germany. It’s a lovely country with some amazing scenery and a great bar/cafe culture, especially in some of the towns and smaller cities that weren’t bombed to oblivion. In some ways I’m glad that they’ve almost given up on trying to get Brits to visit on holidays. I’m looking forward to a week on a farm in the Black Forest in June.

Younger Germans can talk quite openly about the war and they don’t suffer with the massive guilty conscience that afflicts some of their parents. There is a sensitivity about extreme nationalism there that we can’t understand. AFAIK, there is some rule whereby members of certain far right parties have to register themselves with the authorities (I need to look this up to be sure of it though, I’m only going on what my mate told me). As weird as this would be for us here, you can understand why Germans over compensate in their desire to ensure no single movement could gain the kind of momentum that the NAZI party gained in the thirties. Any German I met of our generation would have facepalmed at the thought of someone denying that there had been a holocaust.

Mrs Rickmeister is German and the Holocaust Denial Law does exist, but, its not just Germany it wourld seem. But its understandable that Germany gets tagged with it more readily. A UK Bishop was tried a few years ago for denying it…

A survey of the sixteen countries that have enacted laws
that either directly criminalize Holocaust denial or can be used
to prosecute individuals who deny the Holocaust: Austria,
Belgium, the Czech Republic, France, Germany, Hungary, Israel,
Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Poland, Portugal, Romania
Slovakia, and Switzerland

Presently, sixteen countries have enacted laws that either
directly criminalize Holocaust denial or can be used to
prosecute individuals who deny the Holocaust. Austria,
Belgium, the Czech Republic, France, Germany, Hungary,
Israel, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Poland,
Portugal, Romania, Slovakia1, and Switzerland have
instituted such laws.2

In addition, the courts in The Netherlands often consider
Holocaust denial a form of spreading hatred, which is a
punishable offense.3

Taken from This

the truth is always in the middle of the extreme opposites in any debate.

No its not – what kind of law is this 🙄
What happens if I claim 2 billion died do we up the estimate ?
Daft thing to say but hey it gets a reaction

Whatever. 🙄

Come on, I’m quoting the figure that ‘everyone’ knows, the one we were all taught at school. There’s literally thousands of sources, but not a single one will be unbiased. As they were written by humans.
I assume as you’re saying it’s somewhere in the middle of 0 – 5,000,000 (which is a LOW estimate as it’s purely the Jewish dead, not balance of the non Jewish) in which case you’re spouting something called “bollocks” and just want an argument.
Please feel free to report me again.

awesomely well argued retort
I think you just convinced the cynics there about Gluptons law

See above. 🙄

the truth is always in the middle of the extreme opposites in any debate.

He’s right.
We got halfway to the Moon and turned back.

Look into what happened in Rawanda too. Its amazing.

Absolute batshit mental genocide. Something like 4.4 the killing rate of Auschwitz at its most ‘productive’ with over 80% of the killing done by hand, by people/kids under 21. All in 4weeks too and it was only a few years ago.

Good point Rusty
No go on glupton explain how this law works in relation to the moon claim then if you prefer

Its utter bobbins hence you are reduced to just eye rolling, somewhat pathetically.

There’s literally thousands of sources, but not a single one will be unbiased. As they were written by humans.

What?? What???

Is everyone out to get you too? I don’t think it is a full moon.

Junkyard – Member

What happens if I claim 2 billion died do we up the estimate ?

No, because we’re using the modal average. 🙂

Is this something we really need to argue about?
Millions of people were killed, and in a way it’s sweet and positive that the OP has trouble getting his head around it.

Man visiting the moon isnt a debate.

Man visiting the moon isnt a debate.

Neither is the scale of the Holocaust.

Tootall, no, not delusional paranoia. Just saying that any source could be argued to be biased if you we’re an utter numpty and just wanted an argument. Nothing sinister.
Personally I believe it happen, that it was well over 6million people and I can’t get begin to get my head around why on any level from nazi party politics to the man pulling the trigger.

That’s debatable.

Why are there no definite figures if the scale of the Holocaust is certain?

It’s great to read the accounts of people who have been brought up in Germany, I’m heartened to see that they are teaching children the real version of their country’s history.
I heard a comment last week that German is not a nationality, its an accusation
Made me smile, but sounds like it is very unfair to the current population

Come on now, at least chumpton’s contribution to this thread is different to his usual comment of

‘There are some idiots on this thread’

or a slight variation thereof, followed up with nothing else.

Ive been to the Holocaust Museum in Jerusalem.fantastic building built as a triangular concrete toblerone through a large hill, balanced on the top.

You walk in past armed guards with machine guns,go through metal detectors,and youre in a bright well presented place,you slowly wander round, looking at the exhibits, all of a sudden your eyes water as you read something, or see a picture, you feel ashamed to cry and look round, and see others crying some quite loudly, people being led out, then you muster your manliness and continue walking.
Then youre outside, and it all becomes so real,so horrible, and so well documented, you just hope it can never happen again.

BUT IT DOES, AND FEW DO ANYTHING TO STOP THE NEEDLESS KILLINGS FOR THE SAKE OF RELIGION, OR COLOUR, OR JUST BECAUSE THEY DONT LIKE THEIR NEIGHBOURS IN ANOTHER COUNTRY.

“Why are there no definitive figures?”

I assume, even if you don’t believe it happened, that you understand that if there was a holocaust, that the perpetrators wouldn’t actually be that keen to say exactly what happened when it became clear that they were loosing the war and the allied forces would see the camps and could actually have destroyed some records?

That’s debatable.
Why are there no definite figures if the scale of the Holocaust is certain?

Oh dear.

The lack of reading ability of some of the people on this forum is staggering at times.

is it more or less staggering than your inability to explain your law?

You want a reaction ,you get one then you get upset.

I really dont understand what you “get” from the internet tbh but everyone should have a hobby.

The lack of reading ability of some of the people on this forum is staggering at times.

I ceased to be staggered by it a long time ago. I’m surprised you are tbh

Ok, the blokes a dick. There’s no other explanation. In the interests of not ranting at a screen all evening, I’m going to do my best to never respond to him again.

*wanders off to start a driving thread….*

*wanders off to start a driving thread….*

Top Gear – Did it really happen? DID IT? WHERE’S YOUR EVIDENCE? EH? WHERE IS IT?

The guy wasn’t saying that it didn’t happen just that there isn’t any definite figures. But is there ever for these atrocities.

IMO millions were needlessly slaughtered, a horrendous tragedy that should never be forgotten. People are entitled to their opinion. Exact figures aren’t going to change this.

I’m going to do my best to never respond to him again.

AFAIR, the modz did something to help with this.
Quite a few times.

Odd, that my younger son is a Sachsenhausen today with his school. I hope that he comes back properly informed. He will hopefully understand the scale of atrocities carried out against many there including Jews, Soviets, communists, And Homosexuals etc

CFH, we probably haven’t learnt from the past but I do believe I can predict the future:
8pm BBC2. Tonight.

They started off just being arseholes, they built up to systematic genocide over several years. That’s how it happened.

It’s not just the Nazis and their policies regarding the extermination of those considered undesirable, Stalin and Mao top them by some considerable margin. Although glupton may like to argue the toss over these figures as well, seeing as how he’s set himself up as the forum expert on these matters; http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles5/RummelDemocide.php

Death by Government: Stalin Beat Hitler but Mao Surpassed Both

R.J. Rummel

Powered by Translate
Alternative historian R.J. Rummel is recognized for his calculation of deaths caused by governments — for which he coined the term “democide.” Rummel argues that in the last century totalitarian governments killed more people than warfare.

Many scholars and commentators have referenced my total of 174,000,000 for the democide (genocide and mass murder) of the last century. I’m now trying to get word out that I’ve had to make a major revision in my total due to two books. One is Wild Swans: Two Daughters of China by Jung Chang, and the other is Mao: the Unknown Story that she wrote with her husband, Jon Halliday. I’m now convinced that that Stalin exceeded Hitler in monstrous evil, and Mao beat out Stalin.

From the time I wrote my book on China’s Bloody Century, I have held to these democide totals for Mao:

Civil War-Sino-Japanese War 1923-1949 = 3,466,000 murdered
Rule over China (PRC) 1949-1987 = 35,236,000 murdered
However, some other scholars and researchers had put the PRC total as from 60,000,000 to a high 70,000,000. Asked why my total is so low by comparison, I’ve responded that I did not include the China’s Great Famine 1958-1961. From my study of what was written on this in English, I believed that:

the famine was due to the Great Leap Forward when Mao tried to catch up with the West in producing iron and steel;
the factorization of agriculture, forcing virtually all peasants to give up their land, livestock, tools, and homes to live in regimented communes;
the exuberant over reporting of agricultural production by commune and district managers for fear of the consequences of not meeting their quotas;
the consequent belief of high communist officials that excess food was being produced and could be exported without starving the peasants;
but, reports from traveling high officials indicated that peasants might be starving in certain localities;
an investigative team was sent out from Beijing, and reported back that there was mass starvation;
and then the CCP stopped exporting food and began to imports what was needed to stop the famine.
Thus, I believed that Mao’s policies were responsible for the famine, but he was mislead about it, and finally when he found out, he stopped it and changed his policies. Therefore, I argued, this was not a democide. Others, however, have so counted it, but I thought this was a sloppy application of the concepts of mass murder, genocide, or politicide (virtually no one used the concept of democide). They were right and I was wrong.

From the biography of Mao, which I trust (for those who might question it, look at the hundreds of interviews Chang and Halliday conducted with communist cadre and former high officials, and the extensive bibliography) I can now say that yes, Mao’s policies caused the famine. He knew about it from the beginning. He didn’t care! Literally. And he tried to take more food from the people to pay for his lust for international power, but was overruled by a meeting of 7,000 top Communist Party members.

So, the famine was intentional. What was its human cost? I had estimated that 27,000,000 Chinese starved to death or died from associated diseases. Others estimated the toll to be as high as 40,000,000. Chang and Halliday put it at 38,000,000, and given their sources, I will accept that.

Now, I have to change all the world democide totals that populate my websites, blogs, and publications. The total for the communist democide before and after Mao took over the mainland is thus 3,446,000 + 35,226,000 + 38,000,000 = 76,692,000, or to round off, 77,000,000 murdered. This is now in line with the 65 million toll estimated for China in the Black Book of Communism, and Chang and Halliday’s estimate of “well over 70 million.”

This exceeds the 61,911,000 murdered by the Soviet Union 1917-1987, with Hitler far behind at 20,946,000 wiped out 1933-1945.

For perspective on Mao’s most bloody rule, all wars 1900-1987 cost in combat dead 34,021,000 — including WWI and II, Vietnam, Korea, and the Mexican and Russian Revolutions. Mao alone murdered over twice as many as were killed in combat in all these wars.

Now, my overall totals for world democide 1900-1999 must also be changed. I have estimated it to be 174,000,000 murdered, of which communist regimes murdered about 148,000,000. Also, compare this to combat dead. Communists overall have murdered four times those killed in combat, while globally the democide toll was over six times that number.

Read more on the Dr. Rummel website (new window will open).

Posted: 04-Dec-05

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glupton1976 – Member
That’s debatable.

Why are there no definite figures if the scale of the Holocaust is certain?

There are always going to be debates about numbers. Over the years the figure has come to be accepted as between 5 and 6 million. This has such a wide range as the areas that had the largest Jewish populations eg Poland (Jewish community flourished after Henry 8th had expelled from UK btw,ended up building the linen trade)saw some of the worse fighting,human rights violations etc. The above number is based on pre war census records,pensions, synagogue membership record and of all things,Russian accounts released in the 90’s (based on the camps they liberated)Initial claims were 7,then 9 and for the last 20 odd years have beenn between 5 and 6.
I run a school trip there every 2 years. Not many Holocaust deniers among the young people at my school once they have seen the camp.As an aside, it wasn’t killing that was a prob, it was disposal of the bodies.Also, before the war the Nazis favoured relocation to Madagascar.

rickmeister – Member
CFH, we probably haven’t learnt from the past but I do believe I can predict the future:
8pm BBC2. Tonight.

When will we ever learn the lessons of history, eh? When?

“He who controls the present, controls the past. He who controls the past, controls the future.”

“History is written by the winners.” 😀

“He who controls the present, controls the past. He who controls the past, controls the future.”

Indeed.

“Other channels are available”

I suppose if you want to drift through life shrugging your shoulders and not making any commitment then that is a fine stance.

Because I believe in provable facts and solid evidence, and therefore don’t have a definitive view of ALL aspects of THIS particular topic, you automatically presume I don’t have a definitive view on any topic?

Pray tell how on earth did you came to that conclusion?

I think it a bit odd, but there you go.

Based on your current logic I imagine you think a great many things in life are odd, but there you go.

In fairness tucker, that’s exactly how it came across.

I am interest though, is there not enough evidence of the holacaust to make you think it probably happened? Kind of survivors testaments, camps, german records and the absence of 5million Jews in 1945?

France too has an “apologie de crime de guerre” law that Le Pen fell foul of with his holocaust denial. Bloggers have also been prosecuted.

I spend a few weeks a year in Germany and don’t consider the war a taboo subject. On an exchange I was explaining to a group of French kids why there were no buildings over 70 years old in Heilbronn. My German counterpart made some quips about the work of the RAF and I countered telling him my grandfather was in Coventry in 40, adding that he survived after a short pause. Good humoured banter.

Something that’s true for me and all of us on this thread: als ich geboren wurde, war der Krieg längst vorbei.