so, exactly like a normal alfine then, only with the added faff of charging a battery?

Do you use magic to change gears on that then? Ever had an alfine cable unadjust itself and slip on you?

The battery fails and you are stuck in one gear. Some people madly choose to ride this way anyway. It’s hardly the end of your biking tour like you are making out.

The idea is for racers and to give them an edge. XTR is not the best groupset to be using for going on long distance tours where you are 5000km away from a plug anyway.

Everyone can benefit in that it will provide an improvement at certain things for everyone. If you think that’s worth it or not is up to you. I imagine a starving child in Africa is more bothered about getting food than having any sort of gears on his bike, electric or otherwise.

I’m excited to see it and happy that technology is being pushed, but I don’t think it’ll be for me – mainly because of the cost of replacement should I crash. I’d love to get ride of cables as well. I think alternatives will always exist because it is such a specialist market, so I’m not worried about it as some people strangely seem to be.

flange – Member

Do you use magic to change gears on that then?

er, no. i use the shifter…?

Ever had an alfine cable unadjust itself and slip on you?

no, not it 2 years – i know how to use a spanner you see 😉

(i’ve never even had to adjust for cable stretch)

er, no. i use the shifter…?

Which is connected to the hub by what? Swans tears?

no, not it 2 years – i know how to use a spanner you se

Ahh, well done you. Sadly it was more my sense of not being able to predict the future rather than my inability to wield a spanner that saw the ‘boys in the barracks/stem interface’ issue..

(i’ve never even had to adjust for cable stretch)

You’re not shifting gears with enough anger. Try hitting it like its trying to kill your first born whilst shouting ‘get in ya bastard’…

flange – Member

Which is connected to the hub by what? Swans tears?

no, a cable.

which has been completely problem-free for 2 years.

You’re not shifting gears with enough anger. Try hitting it like its trying to kill your first born whilst shouting ‘get in ya bastard’…

i AM blessed/cursed with a super-human degree of mechanical sympathy.

(alfine tip: stop pedalling when you change gear)

In a smiles per mile per pound graph , which would come out best?

I never smile…

Fair point. The only people who this might benefit are professional racers and anyone who’s got enough disposable income to be considering high-end groupsets.

But njee20 claims:

There are benefits for everyone

So which is it?

If cost were not an issue, imagine a commuter bike with di2 alfine fitted. No cable stretch, minimal chain wear, no rear/front mech alignment issues, no adjustments needed, no jockey wheel wear, no mech to snap off. Just a bit of lube on the chain every now and again (or fit a Gates belt and do away with that) and a charge of the battery twice a year. Surely that’s a benefit?

Great. But what about the wear in the mechanical parts of the system?

Does it over complicate something that shouldn’t be complicated? Maybe. Does it cost a lot more than a bike should cost? possibly. Is it mega awesome? Damn straight…

I wouldn’t say it was mega awesome; it’s simply a different way of achieving the same end result, yet with added complications, and more limited appeal.

Now, if Shimano (or indeed anyone) were to develop and produce a multi-speed hub gear system with the reliability of a SA 3-speed system, but lighter than a current derailleur system, THEN I’d be impressed.

Great. But what about the wear in the mechanical parts of the system?

Man alive what do you want? The moon on a stick? OK, make them out of supertitaniumgoldplatinum then, so they never wear out. And stick an engine on it, and make it never run out of fuel…

Now, if Shimano (or indeed anyone) were to develop and produce a multi-speed hub gear system with the reliability of a SA 3-speed system, but lighter than a current derailleur system, THEN I’d be impressed.

Now you ARE talking out of your arse. A reliable SA 3-speed? Have you ever ridden one?

Man alive what do you want? The moon on a stick?

No, just something that works reliably and isn’t unnecessarily overcomplicated.

A reliable SA 3-speed? Have you ever ridden one?

Owned several. Have one that, apart from a strip and clean a few years ago, has been running faultlessly since the 1970s.

Software upgrade anyone? 😉

“Sorry sir, but your derailleur version 1.1 is no longer supported, you’ll have to upgrade to version 2.2 buy a whole new bike.”

Kerching.

surely the ‘it won’t benefit everyone’ argument could be made against 99% of the cycling products out there.

I don’t need a carbon frame
I don’t need XX1
I certainly don’t really need a 180 quid seatpost on my roadbike
I probably don’t even need more than 5 gears

I’d say the same could be said for 99.9% of the worlds population.So are they all pointless?

surely the ‘it won’t benefit everyone’ argument could be made against 99% of the cycling products out there.

Certain innovations have proven essential, such as pneumatic tyres, brakes, freewheels etc. Over time, certain ‘innovations’ become less revolutionary, as the design of the human powered bicycle has reached a stage of near-perfection. So each new ‘innovation’ appears to offer less actual ‘benefit’, to a point where the actual benefit is more perceived than real (Kashima coating, anyone?). But in order to continue to generate profits, manufacturers must continue to sell the myth of improvement. Which is pretty much where we are now. Innovation offers diminishing returns. And some of those ‘innovations’ aren’t really; they’re just trying to reinvent the wheel.

Thing is, it’s already been invented.

Good solid, argument prolonging tatics, here. Nice work.

The old ones are the best, aren’t they? “shift-the-argument” “cut-n-paste-n-ignore-the-bit-that-anwers the-question”…

Someone’s done this before.

In the context of the use mentioned –

he’s probably best positioned to comment on whether he’d use it or not.

I wouldn’t touch it with a bear-poo covered stick )

But that’s not saying it’s not suitable for long-distance racing, just that I can’t get excited about leccy gears myself, don’t see any need/want for my own uses. For BP stuff I use a simple system of 1 or 2 x6 and on the TD 1×6 may have cost me places at the end. But I did get through without any outside or shop-bought assistance with my bike which was one of my personal aims. Would that happen with DI2, who knows. A broken rim would have been equally disastrous and more likely.

jameso, can I ask why only 6? Are you using a freehub to allow a stronger rear wheel build with less dish? Or less deflection and less wear on the chain?

I’d have thought going as low as 8 would get you all the extra chain beef you’d be able to get?

Edit – or weight…

If cost were not an issue, imagine a commuter bike with di2 alfine fitted. No cable stretch, minimal chain wear, no rear/front mech alignment issues, no adjustments needed, no jockey wheel wear, no mech to snap off. Just a bit of lube on the chain every now and again (or fit a Gates belt and do away with that) and a charge of the battery twice a year. Surely that’s a benefit?

Hear, hear! Add in a hub dynamo on the front, perhaps even one that could trickle charge the battery during daylight hours, as you point out and you’ve got pretty much my dream ‘bike as a means of transport’ bike.

Oh, and full length mudguards, obviously.
I’m with you all here though.

Are you using a freehub to allow a stronger rear wheel build with less dish? Or less deflection and less wear on the chain?

6x 9spd cogs on a Hope SS hub – 3xSS cogs and 3 std shimano ones. Durable, clag-resistant and if the mech rips off I can re-align it all as a SS with a choice of gears (EBB on the bike). Strong back wheel and same spoke size on F+R, L+R.
About as likely to need those get-out features as my DI2 going flat : ) I feel confident that I can fix almost anything on the bike with that set up, electronics is something I’m less confident with.

Very interesting, cheers, I didn’t know there was that much room on a hope SS hub.

Friction thumbies as well?

‘k off : ) no.

Barenders on Paul mounts so they do have a friction option – more about bar / bag space, grip range etc tho.

Jameso – do you have a picture of your TD bike

Fair point. The only people who this might benefit are professional racers and anyone who’s got enough disposable income to be considering high-end groupsets.

But njee20 claims:

There are benefits for everyone

So which is it?

Woah woah woah woah!

I said (as you quote) “There are benefits for everyone”. That is not “It will benefit everyone”, it’s an entirely different statement.

Mugging someone has benefits – you end up with their money and phone. We don’t do it for various reasons; moral compass, jail time etc etc, but that doesn’t detract from the fact that commiting the robbery has benefits, just that the negatives (in this example far) outweigh the benefits.

So yes, Di2 has benefits for everyone. It is not beneficial to everyone. Subtle but important difference there.

No, just something that works reliably and isn’t unnecessarily overcomplicated.

Sounds like you need Di2, far simpler than anything mechanical – you ever looked inside an STI lever?

So yes, Di2 has benefits for everyone. It is not beneficial to everyone. Subtle but important difference there.

😆

You should get a job in marketing. You’re a natural. Those power balance band folk would love you.

you ever looked inside an STI lever?

Yes. You ever looked inside a downtube shifter? 😉

So you never bothered with indexed shifting because they are unnecessarily complicated and a solution to a problem that doesn’t exist?

You should get a job in marketing. You’re a natural.

I made an important distinction, you ignored it.

You ever looked inside a downtube shifter?

Point is that STIs function better than downtube shifters, they’re more complex, but the overwhelming majority of folk would always choose STIs because of the benefits (there it is again, try and keep up). If you use downtube shifters then I’m starting to understand, although I assume your pursuit of relentless simplicity has lead you to singlespeed.

although I assume your pursuit of relentless simplicity has lead you to singlespeed walking.

FTFY

There are benefits for everyone

So which is it?quite surprised you didn’t get that, there’s lots of cool stuff I could buy that would be of benefit but I don’t buy them all coz I’m not minted. Just coz they cost too much for me doesn’t mean they wouldn’t benefit me.

Looking forward to Di2 XT for my bestest bike, workhorse bikes will be using gear cables for a while longer i think

overwhelming majority of folk would always choose STIs because of the benefits

That’s such a developed-world-road-bike-enthusiasts’ viewpoint njee, you should be ashamed.

What about the baby african robins’s faces? Mmmm?

dp

So you never bothered with indexed shifting because they are unnecessarily complicated and a solution to a problem that doesn’t exist?

Your application of Occam’s Razor could have led you to Wackoak’s suggestion, had you taken it to it’s conclusion. 🙄

Indexed shifiting offers a genuine and obvious improvement over non-indexed. As do V/disc brake systems over calipers/cantis. So, it’s common sense to ‘upgrade’ if you ant to enjoy the benefits.

As to Di2; I’m sure there are those who enjoy the benefits of that system over a mechanical one, although my own and others’ experience of it suggests an ‘benefits’ are both negligible and not worth the added expense and complexity. Your personal experience may differ. Great. Buy it.

I made an important distinction, you ignored it.

Ok, so enlighten me as to exactly what it was you meant.

Point is that STIs function better than downtube shifters, they’re more complex, but the overwhelming majority of folk would always choose STIs because of the benefits

‘Better’ is a subjective term. I’d argue that due to their increased reliability over time, downtube shifters could be seen as ‘better’, depending on your own personal perspective. My own road bike uses bar end shifters (10+ years old and still as good as new). As someone said earlier; horses for courses.

I assume your pursuit of relentless simplicity has lead you to singlespeed.

My commuter bike is singlespeed; no derailleurs, shifters, extra cables, batteries or electronics to worry about.

Notice how Shimano haven’t bothered with an electronic braking system? I wonder why that is? After all, cables get gungy and snap, etc. 😉

As to Di2; I’m sure there are those who enjoy the benefits of that system over a mechanical one, although my own and others’ experience

What experience of Di2 do you have? In the real world? Becuase everything you’ve said about it screams ill informed.

Ok, so enlighten me as to exactly what it was you meant.

I’ve already said three times now and it’s getting painful – there are benefits: it weighs less, it is easier to use and more reliable. Those things are likely more than offset by the disadvantages for most people, but it doesn’t stop those things being benefits.

My own road bike uses bar end shifters (10+ years old and still as good as new).

As is the STI on my road bike which didn’t die in the cable failing incident. It’s much nicer to use than a bar end shifter too. What’s your point caller?

Notice how Shimano haven’t bothered with an electronic braking system? I wonder why that is? After all, cables get gungy and snap, etc

You’re kidding, right? Digital signals don’t translate all that well to brakes. Hydraulic however… if you’d looked around of late you’d see that both SRAM and Shimano are doing hydraulic road brakes.

Personally for me I’m not fussed, but I can see there are benefits.

I don’t ride bikes THAT much, don’t race, don’t have that much spare cash.
But if electronic gears meant that during the winter I didn’t have to tinker with the brakes to stop them going ‘per-ting per-ting per-ting graunch clunk’ then I’d have them (ahem, if they did them in a budget ‘slx’ type range).

Issues such as wires breaking would be dead easy to solve (run the wire through a cable outer?) and I thought with Di2 rear mechs (from the little I have seen) if there is some kind of mechanical that wrecks the mech, then it is designed to shear off and save the electronic gubbins from a horrible death?
The battery charging being an issue thing is a joke. As I understand it, you get hundreds of miles from a low battery warning to actual battery death.

Notice how Shimano haven’t bothered with an electronic braking system? I wonder why that is? After all, cables get gungy and snap, etc.

Presumably an electronic braking system would require a lot more power, so wouldn’t be viable/sensible.

I’d have a go. Maybe XT or SLX level.
What about trimming the cables to suit your bike? Easy to do?

My niner had to have the loom extended to fit the longer niner frame (road bikes tend to be shorter and mine is a Di2 conversion, not XTR). It was a bit of a faff but once done its posed no problems

What experience of Di2 do you have? In the real world? Becuase everything you’ve said about it screams ill informed.

Limited to testing a D12 equipped bike for a day. Limited I know, but sufficient for me to make my own judgments based on my own particular needs. Although front-ring upshifts are awesome I have to say.

I’ve already said three times now and it’s getting painful

It will if you don’t explain yourself clearly. 😉

Ok; for example, v brakes offer vastly superior braking performance to cantis or caliper systems. V brakes are relatively cheap to develop and produce (the original XT ones were bloody expensive if I remember right though). Ergo, their development ‘benefits’ a great many cyclists. Di2 on the other hand, is a technology which is very unlikely to ever be all that cheap, therefore it won’t benefit anywhere near the same number of cyclists. So your claim that there are ‘benefits for all’ is somewhat disingenuous. Personally I’m more interested in developments and innovations that benefit cyclists universally, you appear more concerned with your own needs. Everyone’s different.

What’s your point caller?

My own personal set up means that STI’s won’t work very well as I can’t position them where they’d be comfortable and effective in use. That’s all.

You seem to have me down as some sort of luddite, simply because I questioned the ‘benefits’ (for most cyclists) of Di2. I’m not. Interesting that you seem to want me to be though.

I’d be interested in seeing weights and prices for Di2 v mechanical groupsets.

Presumably an electronic braking system would require a lot more power, so wouldn’t be viable/sensible.

Interesting. So, imagining a hybrid electronic/hydraulic system, would a braking system require a lot more power?

Haven’t we been here before?

You seem to have me down as some sort of luddite, simply because I questioned the ‘benefits’ (for most cyclists) of Di2. I’m not. Interesting that you seem to want me to be though.

**looks down list of names**

Nope, luddite isn’t on there. You preach about benefits to the 3rd world and simplicity and what not, which I suppose could be misconstrued as being a luddite. No one’s used that term though. You yourself said cycling is all about having a bike that’s as simple as possible or words to that effect.

So your claim that there are ‘benefits for all’ is somewhat disingenuous

You still don’t get what I’m saying do you? I’ll try once more, I’ll use a different example again. Mr X drives a Fiesta. He looks at a Ferrari. There are benefits with the Ferrari, we’ll keep it really simple, and say that the only one is that it’s faster. Mr X will not be buying the Ferrari because it is ludicrously expensive, but that does not stop it being faster. That is still a (potential) benefit. Do you see? It doesn’t save the faces of African baby robins, but it has a benefit.

You seem to be looking at the benefits to the world, which whilst somewhat noble, also seems rather misguided when talking about something like the cutting edge of mountain bike development.

You still don’t get what I’m saying do you?

I think you lost sight of whatever it was yourself, some time ago. Coming up with guff like ‘Digital signals don’t translate all that well to brakes’ convinced me you’re simply spouting whatever it is you want to believe. Rather than continue what has now become a pointless argument, I’m going to leave it there, but thanks for your input all the same.

I’d still however be interested in comparative weights and prices of Di2 and mechanical systems.

Haven’t we been here before?

What, two people arguing in tandem? Yes, we have.

Coming up with guff like ‘Digital signals don’t translate all that well to brakes’ convinced me you’re simply spouting whatever it is you want to believe.

You think that an ‘on/off’ switch would be good for brakes!? Agree you could have something that works on pressure switches and what not, but hydraulic makes a lot more sense.

What, two people arguing in tandem? Yes, we have.

Haha, dammit I got drawn in! Should know better than the feed the trolls.

I’d still however be interested in comparative weights and prices of Di2 and mechanical systems.

Can (obviously) only offer you road stuff: here.

What, two people arguing in tandem? Yes, we have

No we haven’t!