Di2 XTR

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  • Di2 XTR
  • Hob Nob
    Member

    I hope they just use common sense and don’t go smaller than an 11T on the bottom of the cassette. 11-42 is fine with a normal freeub body.

    Quite happy to give electric a go though. It was awesome on the road bikes I have tried it on.

    Ideal for my Mrs too, who expects digital performance from an analogue setup!

    Premier Icon MSP
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    If they make Di2 hub gears my plan will be complete

    Premier Icon ratherbeintobago
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    There’s a flat bar shifter for Alfine Di2, too:

    Premier Icon molgrips
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    Sweet. I won’t google the cost….

    Premier Icon aracer
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    There’s a flat bar shifter for Alfine Di2, too:

    That’s a truly incredible piece of engineering.

    sangobegger
    Member

    Had to check, but yes in 1992, mavic introduced the Zap. An electric derallieur system. Mongoose had a pic of it on an AMP equipped ” super bike ” at the time. Looked very cool – and never took off until Di2

    Premier Icon MSP
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    Anyway my new dream bike would be a Shand stoater plus with alfine di2 and gates belt drive mmmm….

    cybicle
    Member

    Why is it better than cable actuated?

    Because cables get grungy and performance deteriorates.

    So what happens when your battery dies?

    Mister P
    Member

    You smack yourself in the face for being an idiot and ignoring the warning signs for the last few hundred miles and not charging the battery.

    Premier Icon wwaswas
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    re: that Di2 Alfine: counts going up to 11 always make me feel like it’s really, like, rock and roll, man 🙂

    cybicle
    Member

    You smack yourself in the face for being an idiot and ignoring the warning signs for the last few hundred miles and not charging the battery.

    What if it fails suddenly, or you’re on an epic trip where there’s no electricity? And wouldn’t a spare cable be a tad lighter than a battery charger and lead?

    STATO
    Member

    It’s different, not trying to compete. I reckon Shimano will stick with 2×11, slightly narrower cassette than XX1, no proprietary freehub body, but go electronic. Can’t see they’ll compete directly with XX1.

    Dont we already know about the new freehub standard, wasnt it American Classic who showed a new hub with the wider XTR11 freehub at one of the recent shows?

    Premier Icon Northwind
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    cybicle – Member

    you’re on an epic trip where there’s no electricity?

    Then you’re a moron for not charging it first. Much the same as going on an epic trip with cable gears and not checking that it all works before you leave.

    Houns
    Member

    MSP – Member
    Anyway my new dream bike would be a Shand stoater plus with alfine di2 and gates belt drive mmmm….

    Yes, one of my dream bikes too, just have to ask him to not put the gopping shand decals on it

    Northwind – Member

    Then you’re a moron for not charging it first. Much the same as going on an epic trip with cable gears and not checking that it all works before you leave.

    Lot easier to check a battery too. Gear cables can snap/fray.

    Premier Icon wwaswas
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    you’re on an epic trip where there’s no electricity

    I suspect that people on Epic trips where there’s no electricity were not high on the list of possible users for this type of technology.

    In much the same way that manufacturers of electric vehicles tend to target those markets where there’s mains electricity available.

    cybicle
    Member

    Then you’re a moron for not charging it first.

    I see you conveniently avoided my first question. Given the built in obsolescence of virtually everything these days, I think it’s reasonable to assume that any battery would deteriorate fairly quickly over time, and become unreliable. And then be rather expensive to replace.

    Lots more to go wrong with an electronic system; as people have pointed out, it’s a solution to a non-existent ‘problem’. A boon to professional racers at best, a neat method of fool and money separation more generally.

    A bicycle for me, is a mechanical device which can give me freedom to explore. The idea of needing to be within a certain distance of a suitable charging point kind of negates that ideal.

    Premier Icon molgrips
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    So what happens when your battery dies?

    Battery lasts aaaages, so it’s less of an issue. It’s probably less reliable than cables (although cables have let me down a couple of times in 20-odd years) so I don’t think I’d use it on a bike that I was goingto take through the remote wilderness.

    I don’t often do that these days of course. I’m unlikely to ever buy Di2 purely on grounds of cost.

    Premier Icon wwaswas
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    The idea of needing to be within a certain distance of a suitable charging point kind of negates that ideal.

    It may be an ideal for you. Most of us do a couple of hours of a weeknight and half a day Saturday or Sunday.

    The reality is that there’s a vanishingly small percentage of cyclists who are going to start a ride with a full charge on their Di2 and run the battery flat before they get back to their house/somewhere else with the charger.

    Premier Icon jameso
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    “New” Enduro was being raced for years in that format in France, and on motorbikes even longer before that. It’s you weird long distance types that misappropriated the term, now it’s been “taken back”.

    I did an MTB ‘Enduro’ of the XC type in 2001 I think, was known as a motorbike term then. Not really interested in who had it first etc, just what XC formats are now. Just a passing comment interest, no more..

    jameso – Member

    Just a passing comment interest, no more..

    Same here, just babbling.

    Premier Icon Northwind
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    cybicle – Member

    Given the built in obsolescence of virtually everything these days, I think it’s reasonable to assume that any battery would deteriorate fairly quickly over time, and become unreliable.

    You can assume anything you like, but based on no experience and no direct knowledge of the product in question it’s not likely to be very useful. Lots of people out there using Di2 already, where is the epidemic of failed batteries?

    Premier Icon njee20
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    Dont we already know about the new freehub standard, wasnt it American Classic who showed a new hub with the wider XTR11 freehub at one of the recent shows?

    They’ve done a new MTB hub with 11 speed frehub body certainly, which is what my assumption was based on!

    The idea of needing to be within a certain distance of a suitable charging point kind of negates that ideal.

    That distance is about 5000 miles. So yes, if you’re likely to be more than 5000 miles away from mains power it’s not for you. If you’re also an oaf who forgets to breathe periodically then you may struggle with the need to charge the battery biannually.

    No one’s pretending it’s the best thing ever, or that it’ll solve third world hunger, or that it ‘solves’ any problem (must it!?), the hand wringing is rather unnecessary. It’s lighter, it’s nice to use and has the potential to be more reliable.

    See also: disc brakes, tubeless tyres, suspension forks, rear shocks, dropper posts, carbon frames etc etc etc

    cybicle
    Member

    You can assume anything you like, but based on no experience and no direct knowledge of the product in question it’s not likely to be very useful. Lots of people out there using Di2 already, where is the epidemic of failed batteries?

    My comments were about posing a theoretical counter to the comment regarding gungy cables. As to the failings of the Di2 system;

    have also repaired many Di2 bikes with “issues” including crash damaged components (normally rear derailleur) and firmware incompatability – normally where the customer has replaced a damaged component with a new item bought from on-line retailer and installed ‘at home’

    also seen torn cables, damaged shifters and battery charging issues

    Real world experience such as this is sufficient to convince me (and I’d imagine many others) that Di2 is unnecessary and pointless for the kind of riding I do. As for cables; in over 25 years of riding mountain bikes, I’ve never had a cable fail on me. And I’m not the most fastidious when it comes to bike maintenance.

    That distance is about 5000 miles. So yes, if you’re likely to be more than 5000 miles away from mains power it’s not for you.

    You could be just 5 miles from a source of electricity. However, if that 5 miles involves very difficult terrain or adverse weather conditions, the inability to sort out the issue at the roadside could prove disastrous.

    the hand wringing is rather unnecessary

    Hand wringing? Where? Simply pointing out the failings of a system is hardly ‘hand wringing’. Di2 offers ‘benefits’ (whatever they may be) to a relatively tiny number of cyclists. It’s not a product that will benefit the majority. It’s development and production undoubtedly involves new levels of resource exploitation which are hardly positive for the environment (the production of bicycles is already negatively exploitative in global terms). Should we not be considering such issues?

    If you’re also an oaf who forgets to breathe periodically then you may struggle with the need to change gears mechanically.

    I believe the appropriate term here is ‘FTFY’. 😉

    Premier Icon njee20
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    You still have to change gears manually, just they’re actuated by servos rather than cables.

    I’ve never had a cable fail on me

    Good for you, I have twice, first time it destroyed a Dura Ace STI lever, second was just a pain.

    You could be just 5 miles from a source of electricity. However, if that 5 miles involves very difficult terrain or adverse weather conditions, the inability to sort out the issue at the roadside could prove disastrous.

    Again though, the battery holds a charge for thousands of miles, so to have let it get to the last 5 you deserve everything you get. Seriously, that argument is on par with pneumatic tyres being a bad idea because they lose pressure during the course of a ride. Except a Di2 battery takes a lot longer to go flat.

    Di2 offers ‘benefits’ (whatever they may be) to a relatively tiny number of cyclists.

    No, it offers benefits to all, as I laid out in my last post. Whether those are offset by any disadvantages (real or perceived) is your judgement call.

    It’s development and production undoubtedly involves new levels of resource exploitation which are hardly positive for the environment (the production of bicycles is already negatively exploitative in global terms).

    New member… are you Edukator?

    Should we not be considering such issues?

    As you love your assumed sweeping generalisations I’ll go for one here… the “resource exploitation” derived from the development of the entire XTR Di2 groupset is probably about 1/1000000000th of what China do on a daily basis.

    If you want to dwell on those issues you go right ahead, I shalln’t.

    cybicle
    Member

    njee20; you seem like the sort of person for whom Di2 is ideal. But I must take issue with your claim that “it offers benefits to all”, as I simply don’t see how a relatively very expensive system is of any real benefit to anyone but professional racers and those with relatively high levels of disposable income. I hardly see how an expensive proprietary electronic gear shifting system would be of benefit to someone say in rural Africa or India, people who would need a bicycle for transport etc. And There are an awful lot more people like that on this planet, than ‘Weekend Warriors’ with loads of spare cash to splash on toys.

    the “resource exploitation” derived from the development of the entire XTR Di2 groupset is probably about 1/1000000000th of what China do on a daily basis.

    You have to see the bigger picture. It’s still adding to consumption and exploitation of resources. Something we’re constantly told is bad M’kay.

    Premier Icon flange
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    You could be just 5 miles from a source of electricity. However, if that 5 miles involves very difficult terrain or adverse weather conditions, the inability to sort out the issue at the roadside could prove disastrous.

    You could also break a chain, put the rear mech into the back wheel (snapping mech and a few spokes making the wheel unrideable) or simply snap a gear cable. I don’t know how many people carry a spare gear cable with them, but I know I and all of my riding mates don’t.

    I’m still planning on doing the Tour Divide next year and I’ll be using my niner which has Di2 fitted. I’m thinking I’ll take a spare battery but apart from that, it should be fine. Jameso on here has done it (and placed highly) so he’s probably best positioned to comment on whether he’d use it or not.

    It’s not for everybody like Campag isn’t for everybody, or full suspension and what not. I do believe that bikes should be as simple as possible – Mans most efficient machine – but I also like cool stuff and Di2 is cool (look at the self trimming front mech – teh awesomez). I happen to think the dual front and rear lock out lever on Fox forks and shocks is completely pointless and makes bikes overcomplicated, but some people will love it and sing its praises.

    I cycled to and from work yesterday on my none Di2’d niner and had issues with shifting from a gunged up gear cable (a result of riding swinley on Sunday). Had I been on my other bike, I’d have had no such problems.

    Different strokes for different folks

    Premier Icon njee20
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    But I must take issue with your claim that “it offers benefits to all”, as I simply don’t see how a relatively very expensive system is of any real benefit to anyone but professional racers and those with relatively high levels of disposable income. I hardly see how an expensive proprietary electronic gear shifting system would be of benefit to someone say in rural Africa or India, people who would need a bicycle for transport etc. And There are an awful lot more people like that on this planet, than ‘Weekend Warriors’ with loads of spare cash to splash on toys.

    There are benefits for everyone. It is lighter, it’s nicer to use (subjective I’ll concede) and it has the potential to be more reliable/durable.

    I am not saying that Di2 is better than mechanical, just that there are benefits. For many people the negatives will outweigh those benefits – cost being chief among them, but that doesn’t negate the fact there are benefits to the system.

    Call me selfish, but when I’m considering a purchase, be it bike, car, electronic, clothing, food, I’m not really thinking about the people in Africa or India, and I’m really struggling with the relevance of your point…? Should Shimano not be investing in Di2 because those on the Indian sub-continent who ride bikes won’t be using it? 😕

    tpbiker
    Member

    I hardly see how an expensive proprietary electronic gear shifting system would be of benefit to someone say in rural Africa or India, people who would need a bicycle for transport etc

    Do you honestly believe this is the target market?

    You have to see the bigger picture. It’s still adding to consumption and exploitation of resources. Something we’re constantly told is bad M’kay.

    How do you think the laptop/Phone your typing on is made exactly? Fairydust?

    cybicle
    Member

    You could also break a chain, put the rear mech into the back wheel (snapping mech and a few spokes making the wheel unrideable) or simply snap a gear cable. I don’t know how many people carry a spare gear cable with them, but I know I and all of my riding mates don’t.

    None of those issues would pose an insurmountable problem for in experienced cycle tourist with a few spare links, a chain tool and few spare spokes. But we’re going round in circles now; you could carry spare batteries (which of course would add to the load,not simply replace other things), the whole electronic system could fail, a frame could snap etc. Di2 would however present more potential issues than already exist.

    None of the arguments presented here in favour of Di2 convince me that it’s the ‘way forward’. I am however more convinced that it’s yet another product aimed at making profit from those who need their cycling to be high tech and sophisticated. Which in this regard, cycling doesn’t need to be. If you need Di2 to make your biking more enjoyable, then buy it. I’ll stick to my low-tech bike, and continue to enjoy riding it.

    Premier Icon MSP
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    I’ll stick to my low-tech bike, and continue to enjoy riding it.

    I always found a dandy horse rather tiring and uncomfortable.

    New member… are you Edukator?

    Someone else was a naysayer against Di2 back in the day…..

    cybicle
    Member

    Should Shimano not be investing in Di2 because those on the Indian sub-continent who ride bikes won’t be using it?

    I’d prefer it if they invested more in improving the environmental and social impact of the whole industry, personally. I’m all for innovation, however I’d prefer it if it want’ exclusive to making cycling more accessible as a whole. See my thread on accessibility for an expansion on this theme. I don’t see how making more and more expensive toys achieves this.

    There are benefits for everyone

    Call me selfish, but when I’m considering a purchase, be it bike, car, electronic, clothing, food, I’m not really thinking about the people in Africa or India

    I’m a bit confused here. So, are you saying you’d prefer it if the cycling industry concentrated only on your personal needs?

    How do you think the laptop/Phone your typing on is made exactly? Fairydust?

    So, the answer is more electronic stuff?

    Do you honestly believe this is the target market?

    No, I’m merely expressing my own views that stuff like Di2 doesn’t ‘benefit’ the greater cycling world in the way some might claim.

    It is an interesting discussion.

    Premier Icon nedrapier
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    Di2 is bad because starving children in Africa?

    Have we stumbled upon a hither-to unsuspected truth that bike companies are in it for the money? That they try and produce stuff that people will want to buy? That they know that if a product doesn’t work well enough for the price point, it won’t sell and they won’t make money?

    It’s… OMG! Capitalism!

    Shit the bed.

    Premier Icon nedrapier
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    I simply don’t see how a relatively very expensive system is of any real benefit to anyone but professional racers and those with relatively high levels of disposable income

    Fair point. The only people who this might benefit are professional racers and anyone who’s got enough disposable income to be considering high-end groupsets.

    “All of A is in A.” Good work, Sherlock.

    Premier Icon flange
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    None of those issues would pose an insurmountable problem for in experienced cycle tourist with a few spare links, a chain tool and few spare spokes

    Yes BUT the point is, it isn’t designed for experienced (or inexperienced) cycle tourists is it.

    If cost were not an issue, imagine a commuter bike with di2 alfine fitted. No cable stretch, minimal chain wear, no rear/front mech alignment issues, no adjustments needed, no jockey wheel wear, no mech to snap off. Just a bit of lube on the chain every now and again (or fit a Gates belt and do away with that) and a charge of the battery twice a year. Surely that’s a benefit?

    Apply those benefits to someone on a reasonably sized tour. Again, those same benefits apply no? I’m sure if needed you could rig up an exposure hub to charge not only your light and Garmin, but your Di2 battery as well.

    Does it over complicate something that shouldn’t be complicated? Maybe. Does it cost a lot more than a bike should cost? possibly. Is it mega awesome? Damn straight…

    If cost were not an issue, imagine a commuter bike with di2 alfine fitted. No cable stretch, minimal chain wear, no rear/front mech alignment issues, no adjustments needed, no jockey wheel wear, no mech to snap off. Just a bit of lube on the chain every now and again (or fit a Gates belt and do away with that) and a charge of the battery twice a year. Surely that’s a benefit?

    Hear, hear! Add in a hub dynamo on the front, perhaps even one that could trickle charge the battery during daylight hours, as you point out and you’ve got pretty much my dream ‘bike as a means of transport’ bike.

    Oh, and full length mudguards, obviously.

    Premier Icon MSP
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    you could rig up an exposure hub to charge not only your light and Garmin, but your Di2 battery as well.

    TAKE MY MONEY! God damm you!

    Premier Icon flange
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    My work here is done

    *revolves on chair stroking cat*

    mwahahahahaha

    Premier Icon ahwiles
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    flange – Member

    …imagine a commuter bike with di2 alfine fitted. No cable stretch, minimal chain wear, no rear/front mech alignment issues, no adjustments needed, no jockey wheel wear, no mech to snap off. Just a bit of lube on the chain every now and again (or fit a Gates belt and do away with that) and a charge of the battery twice a year.

    so, exactly like a normal alfine then, only with the added faff (admittedly small) of charging a battery?

Viewing 40 posts - 81 through 120 (of 163 total)

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