So a friend of mine has started a new business and designed a logo for it. I’ve been helping him out with a few things, and I’ve just come across a very similar logo from a company in the same sector, but not a direct competitor.

Can someone point me at guidance / advice, that will tell me what the legal implications are of ripping off someone else’s logo and how similar do they need to be considered a rip off.

I’m not condoning what he’s done, at the very least, he’s robbing the designer of a fee, but he is a good friend of mine and I want to help him avoid any trouble, before it happens, by if necessary, ditching what he has and doing something different.

I’d rather not post the logos for comparison up on here, but if someone could offer some advice, I’ll point you at them off-line.

TIA

There’s more than just the legal implications to consider.

A friend of mine set up his own photography business and designed his own logo. No problem – that was over a year ago.

A local council has just started putting up poster regarding paedophiles at swimming polls and the like – and used a very similar logo for their campaign 🙂

In summary – is there room for confusion??

Druidh YGM

Heh! 😀

Geoff; email me and I’ll try to see what advice I can give.

Generally speaking, if it can be considered someone is ‘breaching copyright’, by using a design that appears to be based on that of another, then that’s illegal. Y’know, like snidey fake stuff you can buy in flea markets in holiday resorts in the Far East and that.

I found myself in a potentially tricky position, having designed something that was based on a company’s initials, which I later found out was also the initials of another company. The logos looked very different, but the other company was loosely related within the same sphere of activity. I’ve actually spoken to representatives of the other company, and explained there was no intention to ‘steal their thunder’, and everything’s cool. In fact there may even be future co-operation between the two organisations as a result! It’s a tricky subject though.

Elfin – I have!

In summary – is there room for confusion??

It’s a tricky one. If they’re totally unrelated trades/products/services, and based in different countries even, with non-overlapping markets, then possibly, but the company with the logo designed first could demand the second company change their logo if it even remotely resembled their own.

Logos are visual symbols, and part of a brand. Hence there could be confusion if two companies had similar logos; obviously neither companies might want their own products/services confused with something totally different.

EG, if you had a solicitors called McDonalds, then they’d need a logo which could never be confused with the fast-food chain. And possibly need to call themselves ‘McDonalds Solicitors’ to differentiate themselves from the burger makers. Then, you might have another firm of solicitors called McDonlads; you can’t copyright names, but logos are subject to copyright law.

is it not more of a case of ‘passing off’ than copyright breach ?

To use the McDonalds argument, you are accruing a benefit by allowing the customers (mistaken) belief that you are associated with the McDonalds brand. I.e. aligning yourself with a reputable company saves you time/expense in building a reputation which the other brand has spent time/good money doing so and you benefit financially from this ‘confusion’.

Not my field of law but my view would be that its a practice to be best avoided. (Obviously direct copyright breach is also another issue.) Worst scenario is you spend time building your brand and possibly producing product with your logo and then have to start again at a later date because the other logo owner brings an action.

Not my area so dont flame me , just thought it might add.

What marginwalker said. Fred is getting confused with counterfeiting and copyright but of course is an expert! 🙄

google “passing off”. I studied it briefly 8-9 yeas ago so can’t really comment. What I do remember is that it’s the likelihood of confusion (and therefore similar business) that matters and intent or lack thereof is irrelevant.

There was a case a few years back of a small restaurant in Fort William (IIRC) being chased by McDonalds (the US fast food company). Of course, the owner of the small restaurant was a Mr McDonald and he successfully got the right to call his premises McDonalds – i.e. you can’t copyright a name.

Fred is getting confused with counterfeiting and copyright

I’m not. Counterfeiting is attempting to pass off exact copies, or as close copies that can be considered an attempt to fool the buyer into thinking they’re getting the ‘genuine’ goods. When I talk about copyright breaching in this instance, I mean stuff that isn’t quite the same, but looks very similar. Similar enough for a court to consider the design to be a ‘breach of copyright’. You know what I mean. Like the dodgy perfumes you can get in markets, ‘Channel’ instead of ‘Chanel’, very similar logos, that sort of thing.

but of course is an expert!

Never claimed to be so get back in your cage Lawyer Boy! 😉

One of the key things people forget, or just don’t do, when setting up a business is to register their trademarks.

Without seeing the logos and knowing the companies names it is hard to comment on this case. If the logos are graphically similar then it could be a case of copyright infringement. If the company’s names are also similar there could be a trademark issue.

The McDonalds example mentioned above is not a copyright case it’s a trademark one. The only reason the Scottish restaurant was allowed to continue using the name was as the owner is called McDonald and the restaurant had been established for sometime – you’d not get away with opening a new restaurant called McDonalds.

Geoff – I’m not sure if you have got the answers you need, feel free to mail me if you like and I’ll help out where I can (I’m not a lawyer but work in brand management/design so have had some experience with this)

No Fred, that’s passing off 🙄

Google suggests copyright is using someone else’s work and not crediting them for it

Right, ok Al, instead of being so patronising, why not actually try being helpful, like myself and others have been?

When I speak of ‘breach of copyright’, I’m referring to a person copying/adapting an image/logo, for their own use, without the permission of the author/copyright holder. In the dodgy perfume example, yes, it’s ‘passing off’, but producing a logo that is very similar to the original, could be considered a breach of copyright, no? IE, it doesn’t have to look exactly the same, but with several points of similarity.

Below are some examples of logos that are similar. Some more similar than others. Some for totally unrelated products/services. Could there not be a case for breach of copyright in at least some of them?

See, that’s the issue with the examples that GeoffJ sent me.

It looks as though there are 2 bits to this.

1. Copyright breach around the actual logo. My friend has ripped off the work of the designer who created it for the other company;

2. Passing Off – by using the ripped off logo. My friend is risking representation which is misleading and confusing.

I’m going to have to have a difficult conversation tomorrow. 😐