Where is Esselgruntlfuttock?

he must have an opinion on this one.

Ton – have you been in a prison? They are not nice places and loosing your liberty is horrible.

So Ton – define how you can hang those people and not hang Stefan Kisko, Stephen Downing, Colin Stagg – or are you prepared to let these innocent men be hung?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidney_Cooke

I was in court on one of the days of Shipmans trial(in an observational capacity during my degree). He wasn't in court on that particular day thank god as I'd have probably been held in contempt!

The medical evidence was being put forward to decide what was admissible. What struck me was how robust the system is. Law is tested all the time but still it gets things wrong.

Do you think Shipman wouldn't have killed, for fear of the death penalty? He displayed psychopathic behaviors. His staggering arrogance put him beyond the rationale of the general populous. We (as a society) should have learned from him in the hope that understanding the mindset of people such as him, can lead to spotting the early warning signs in others to prevent horrific crimes like his from happening again.

He was one of 12 children, born in the Toxteth area of Liverpool, and spent most of his early years in Nazareth House (an orphanage run by nuns) in Crosby, Liverpool. At the age of eight, he was retrieved by his parents and beaten regularly until he was eventually removed from their care by social services.[1] During the late 1960s, as a teenager, Maudsley was a rent boy in London to support his drug addiction. He was finally forced to seek psychiatric help after several suicide attempts. It was during his talk with doctors that he claimed to hear voices telling him to kill his parents.

Yeah lets hang him..

At the risk of once again being looked upon as a racist, nazi or extremist and AFAIK, the BNP manifesto includes the reintroduction of the death penalty as a sentencing option in certain cases.

teej, unfortunatley, yes i have. not proud of it.

Your cousin works in Wakey then Ton? Up to now I've worked in Durham, Frankland (both high security cat A's at the time) & where I am now, which will remain anonymous. When you read security files on SOME inmates, there's no way MANY can think 'aahh, bless, lets give them a second chance' some might, but not the majority.
For what skidartist said, I'll never be out of work even if the death penalty was re-introduced.
TJ may have worked in the prison system but I'll wager he wasn't pounding the landings.

esselgruntfuttock
yes mate, and another at hull.

One thing is whilst the Death Penalty was in place
crime was in no shape or form as it is today!

esselgruntfuttock

Never pounded the landings for sure. Prison nurse. It was enough to have some idea of what happens but not enough to have a deep knowledge

I certainly believe that there are some who need to be removed from society never to re-enter it and some people are irredeemable.

I believe in rehabilitation but I am realistic enough to know for some this is not possible. I have no issue with open ended sentences and I believe our judicial system fails – too many folk get sentences that do nothing – either they need to be and can be rehabilitated and this does not happen – or they can't or wont and need to be removed from society.

However reform of the system is another topic for another day.

teej, lets agree to disagree, i am hungry??

Grantway – murder is at a 20 yr low at the moment – the rate has been steadily dropping for this time.

Why? I have no idea but I guess its increasing prosperity and better treatment of mental illness

Soz TJ, missed your thread while I was (slowly) typing under the affluence of G&T, It's been a hard day again! I'm in a working prison where the vast majority of inmates…work. The majority on my wing see prison as a hinderance & don't find it particularly difficult. Why this is I don't know cos I couldn't do a month's bird never mind a good stretch. Our place is obviously not a bad place to be, 7 channels on the telly, decent visits opportunities, foods not too bad (yes, I have tried it but don't let on!)plenty of time out of cell, staff aren't manic, mostly. & even our several soon to be cat D's say it's not really difficult! May vary from jail to jail & length of sentence etc.
Any questions, form a queue.

ton – Member

teej, lets agree to disagree,

I have no problem with that – your opinion is yours and at least you accept the logic that if you have capital punishment innocents will be hung.

i am hungry??

Who are you going to eat? The murderers or me? 😯

Who are you going to eat? The murderers or me?

a certain kind of burger……. 😯 😉

esselgruntfuttock

Respect to you. You do a job that many could not.

Interesting that you say your place ain't to bad – but you couldn't do a month.

Pentonville was horrible – thats my main experience. One thing I found both interesting and good to see was the quality of the prison officers. I was expecting a bunch of real arses but on the whole they were decent blokes wanting to do a decent days work with a touch of humanity – and some were very good indeed.

Right – beer o'clock

laters peeps

Mine's another G&T then, rest day tomorrow, thank ****!

LOL! Just like to answer TJ.

On this I am a new testament man – "turn the other cheek" not an old testament man " an eye for an eye"

Jesus!(in Spanish accent please) Are you trying to be a martyr? I hope you have not confused yourself with Stockholm syndrome? Compassionate yes but martyr slapping cheek and all that is not right.

Eye for an eye? They are only between those people who are the victims of heinous crime so those people who protest against the punishment is in fact being "compassionate" for the wrong reason when the case is clear.

Fair enough if the case is not clear and you protest but if you protest against all cases there must be something wrong.

Some good arguments from TJ as usual and highly entertaining but somehow something is not right.

Now you answer

Are you prepared for one of your family to be put to death after a miscarriage of justice?

If it is a miscarriage of justice no. As you say 'miscarriage' and who would let that happens without protest?

🙄

Chewk. Look at Stephen Downing, Stefan Kismo. Colin Stagg. All would have been executed by the eye for an eye folk. all innocent but stitched up

TandemJeremy: "Chewk. Look at Stephen Downing, Stefan Kismo. Colin Stagg. All would have been executed by the eye for an eye folk. all innocent but stitched up

Yes, it's not perfect but the guilt will be with the people who stitched them up. They too must be brought to justice if they use underhand tactics.

Back to the OP's question, death penalty, Yes or no…

How about an 'opt in' death penalty? If you believe in the death penalty as a deterent, you sign up for it…

Idea being there are 2 differing tarifs for all crimes. The none death penalty tarrif has much longer jail time for all crimes. Where as the death penaly tarrif has much reduced jail time for minor offences , but more serious crimes are punishable by death.

Idea shamelessly nicked from Mark Thomas's tour eariler this year.

Base Ball Bat works

chewkw – Member

TandemJeremy: "Chewk. Look at Stephen Downing, Stefan Kismo. Colin Stagg. All would have been executed by the eye for an eye folk. all innocent but stitched up

Yes, it's not perfect but the guilt will be with the people who stitched them up. They too must be brought to justice if they use underhand tactics.

So your solution to the innocent being killed by the state ios to just keep killing people till all worngs re righted? You know how daft that is dont you]The its not perfect but means we kill people who have not committed any crimes BTW.

Junkyard – Member

So your solution to the innocent being killed by the state ios to just keep killing people till all worngs re righted? You know how daft that is dont you]The its not perfect but means we kill people who have not committed any crimes BTW.

No. It means doing a thorough investigation before sentencing and not some underhand tactics.

😯

Chewkw.

So how are you going to stop the misscaiges of justice then?

You don't think the above cases were "thoroughly investigated"

doing a thorough investigation before sentencing and not some underhand tactics.

so you propose the Status Quo excellent suggestion.

YES

NO

SOMETIMES

How about securing the perimeter of one of the more desolate islands that exist in some number off the coast of the UK, landing the worst of our prison population – the ones with no hope of redemption – in a huge group and set them free to take part in a battle royale type sentence, and then use the threat of this punishment as a future deterrent?

TJ – I respect your well made points however please desist from asking those in favour how they would prevent miscarriages of justice until you can say how you would prevent reoffending by those released under the current system.

Can we at least agree to sterilise them? 😆

Whilst money isn't the driver on this issue, I'd rather provide improved healthcare etc with the money saved from keeping those who have been sentenced never to be released than keep them in some degree of comfort and probably protected into their dotage. That's a no brainer of a choice to me. And to be clear this relates only to those sentenced never ever to be released.

No as people can be framed and I don't trust the police.

How many innocent people have been wrongly convicted and released?

Bloody hard labour though.

Deepreddave – being against the death penalty does not mean I support the status quo – I said in an earlier post that IMO there are people who should never be released and there are a whole load of other measures I would like to see as well

The two things are not linked. Reoffending could be reduced greatly ( although it is not as high as the daily wail would like you to think) without capital punishment.

The point about miscarriages of justice is absolutely crucial to the debate. There will allways be such and its bad enough that innocents get convicted without them being hung.

You do know the murder rate is at a 20 yr low and the stats on it cannot be fudged

Funny old day today, I mean 'funny', not one single inmate I'd like to 'pop off' Most were jovial & I helped one for an hour with a crossword (for which he was very grateful). Took the mick out of another who was completely off his face but he took it well. Watched the pool & table tennis from the 3's & had decent crack with quite a few dodgy boys, felt a tiny weeny bit sorry for one who'd smashed his cell up cos healthcare had screwed up yet again. So today, no I don't believe in the death penalty.
Tomorrow may be different!

TJ – ok, we agree the current system needs improvement at least 😀 I can't help but think more draconian measures would work though!

TandemJeremy – Member

Chewkw.

So how are you going to stop the misscaiges of justice then?

You don't think the above cases were "thoroughly investigated"

Obviously if you have corrupt/bias cops then no and hence the underhand tactics but it does not mean we become "hangman" happy too.

Deepred dave – find some evidence that it does. Indeed the evidence is the other way round – treating criminals well and keeping them out of prison seems to reduce offending.

Do Saudi Arabi and Kuwait count? think their homicide rates were lower even though they have the death penalty for crimes other than homicide. It's impossible to compare what works around the world due to differing social wealth etc. I'm pretty sure paying criminals £40k a year would help reduce crime further but it's hardly practical. making prison time more bearable doesn't seem to disincentivise career criminals. I'm not inclined to spend hours looking for stats on all manner of crimes but this came up on first page of google and sems to confirm all is not rolsy under our current increasingly liberal regime:

[/url]

The rates of reoffending for some of the most serious offences showed the biggest rises. There was a 13 per cent increase in the number of the most serious offences committed – including murder and rape – from 326 to 385.

I’ve got an idea how about a x-factor style executions???
get 4 judges to see how bad the crime are then get the public to vote???? 😯
defo rating winner , excusive interview in the Sun so we can all read about it…. sounds good doesn't it!!!!

whatever the reason ……killing someone is wrong and will always be wrong

how can a society put forward the message that murder is wrong and then punish it with murder !!!

is it just me or does that seem very very very wrong???

deepreddave …I doubt any of us are defending the current system as perfect or ideal. IMHO it is neither a particular deterrent nor is it actually seriously attempting to rehabilitate.

Do you think economic conditions are in any way linked to crime rates and recidivism?
What do you think the average qualification level is of a convicted prisoner?
Do you think it is any different when they leave?
Do they have trade or job to go to on release?
Can they easily walk into jobs with a criminal record?

It is a complicated issue and whether we went all brutal and killed everyone for even menial crimes, three strikes and you are out, tough love,just give them a hug and some training/all liberal at the other extreme we would not stop crime from ever occuring
As neither system can actually stop ALL crime it is more a measure of our societies humanity than the criminals….. two wrongs do not make a right.

Junkyard – pretty much totally agree :D. tho' I'm less concerned about keeping the tiny few alive to evidence our humanity as against the risks of further innocents suffering (or the better things we could do with the money including looking to prevent why people do what they do although well aware we must have a few who are just not wired right from day one).