David Cameron – smart or big scaredy pants?

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  • David Cameron – smart or big scaredy pants?
  • nealglover
    Member

    Salmond is like the looney in the pub, sat in the corner nursing half-a-mild

    Salmond is about the best orator of his generation within politics, an incredibly astute politician

    Love it.

    Whatever he is, he certainly divides opinion !

    ernie_lynch
    Member

    I think the reasons given by Cameron for not engaging in a televised debate are perfectly valid :

    “I understand why you might wish to pursue a diversionary tactic. It is a convenient means of deflecting attention away from the real issues, the lack of credibility of your plans for a currency union, funding pensions and managing volatile oil revenues.

    You want the independence debate to be an argument between you and me; the Scottish Government and UK Government; the SNP and Conservative Party – in fact anything rather than what it really is about.

    Nor is your argument with the rest of the United Kingdom, it is with the people in Scotland.

    The referendum is therefore too important to be reduced to the status of some glorified general election.

    People should cast their vote in the knowledge that they are deciding not just for themselves, but also for their children, grandchildren and succeeding generations.

    It is for people in Scotland to decide. And it is right for you and Alistair Darling – as the leaders of the respective campaigns, with votes to cast as well as votes to win – to debate head-to-head on TV.”[/i]

    I have no idea if the real reason is that Cameron is “scared” of Salmond, but the reasons given are valid imo.

    Besides I strongly dislike ‘talent show’ type televised debates which have no real tradition in British politics anyway, as they attach considerable importance to appearance and presentation at the expense of the policies being discussed.

    The 2010 face-to-face pre-general election televised debate contributed nothing to the election campaign imo. Despite the “Cleggmania” phenomena which apparently swept Britain in the wake of a TV debate in which Clegg famously said, “the more they argue the more they sound the same” (which proved to be ironic considering that a couple weeks later he jumped into bed with the Tories) the LibDems received pretty much the same level of support they had received 5 years previously under Charles Kennedy.

    Which suggests that the British electorate is still sophisticated enough to put policies before presentation. I would rather it stayed that way, even though in recent years presentation has made significant inroads into politics.

    Premier Icon scotroutes
    Subscriber

    wrote:

    I think the reasons given by Cameron for not engaging in a televised debate are perfectly valid :
    “I understand why you might wish to pursue a diversionary tactic. It is a convenient means of deflecting attention away from the real issues, the lack of credibility of your plans for a currency union, funding pensions and managing volatile oil revenues.

    So – he does want to engage in debate,, just not in a manner in which Salmond can immediately refute all of his allegations. Much better to just have the media repeat his words verbatim and hope no one notices he is talking crap.

    ernie_lynch
    Member

    So – he does want to engage in debate

    Of course he does, politics is about “debates”.

    He just doesn’t think that the debate on independence for Scotland should be focused as one between him and Salmon. I think he’s right. And as he said : “It is a well understood and reasonable principle that you get to pick your own team’s captain, but not your opponent’s as well”. Fair point imo.

    Premier Icon teamhurtmore
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    E_L +1

    As much as I enjoy watching Salmond’s bravado and arrogance crumble under sensible srutiiny (Currency, Central Banking, Defence, EU, NATO etc), this is a stunt and nothing more.

    As both sides say, the vote is neither a vote for the SNP nor a vote against the Tories. So this proposal is a red, or should that be blue and white, herring.

    Save the money and give everyone a copy of Gavin McCrone’s book for free as a starting point. I am half way through and find it intersting, enjoyable and at least an attempt at being balanced. Much better than the tosh coming out of those hogging the media.

    Premier Icon imnotverygood
    Subscriber

    Anyone who believes that Salmond wants to have this debate for any other reason than because it would work to his advantage is being either disingenuous or just plain naive. But I suppose he has try something to change the way the polls continue to show a lack of support for Independence.

    piemonster
    Member

    Ernie plus 2

    b r
    Member

    It’s not about who is more scottish than the other. If you were born inside on the Scottish side of the border you are Scottish.

    There isn’t really any legal definition of ‘Scottish’, except for the vote all you need to be is living here. So I can vote and the 800k ‘Scots’ who live elsewhere in the UK can’t – plus however many ‘Scots’ who live overseas.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-13326310

    athgray
    Member

    I was recently ridiculed for suggesting we may see a style of democracy closer to Russia following a yes vote. Link may not work, however outlines Jim Sillars assessment of the SNP.

    [/url]

    He describes Salmond as ‘totalitarian’. Party members tow the line through ‘dumb loyalty’.

    He says that if he didn’t know better he would believe the leadership have been schooled in the ways of the old Communist Party.

    ‘Totalitarian would be a fair description of Scotlands majority party. Those willing to be told to shut up seem happy to wait until the leadership issue edicts and statements, and follow what ever line is laid down for them’.

    These are not the words of a No campaigner but those of a former deputy leader of the SNP and mentor to Alex Salmond, the husband of a prominent SNP politician and a Yes campaigner.

    The SNP cannot be removed from the debate as following a Yes vote they would more than likely dominate the political scene for some time on the back of that ‘dumb loyalty’

    On the OP, CMD is both wise and scared. He would not win a debate as I will agree that Salmond is a skilled orator. I would like to see him debate with George Galloway. If GG can out manoeuvre the US Senate, then he should have no problems with Salmon.

    RichPenny
    Member

    Does stabbing the pencil through Thatchers face count as a vote?

    wrecker
    Member

    I don’t really care about the fringe stuff. CMDS and Salmond can posture and do exactly what they want.
    What matters is the vote of the scots. As a big believer in self determination, I wish them all the best whatever they choose.

    wobbliscott
    Member

    All politicians spout BS and dodgy statistics. To say that Salmond is a good debater doesn’t mean that what he’s debating is right or wrong – he’s just clever at debating. People need to see through the BS and make their own mind up. The question is will I get a vote given I have a Scottish mother? In theory if Scotland was already an independent nation i’d have dual nationality, so should get a vote shouldn’t I?

    Premier Icon sadmadalan
    Subscriber

    Had Dave agreed to the debate then Salmond would have turned it into an England vs Scotland debate. If there is going to be a televised debate, then it should be between the leaders of the Yes and No campaigns. Which would exclude Salmond. Personally Dave was on a no win situation had he turned up, at least this way he gets a chance to have a go at Salmond.

    Personally the best bit of politics was Dave agreeing to the vote. Salmond did not really want the vote yet. If the vote is no, and I suspect that this will be the case, then there will not be another vote for a further generation. Who knows what the situation will be in 30 years.

    And I am very disappointed that the Yes campaign have tried to justify their case. Independence should not require justification. If you want it you will live with the consequences regardless.

    Premier Icon igm
    Subscriber

    Seems not unreasonable that in a decision about whether to be part of the UK or an independent nation, that the current leader of the UK turns up, in front of the Scottish people and lays out his vision for the future of the UK, making the case for why that is more desirable than the alternative vision of an independent nation.

    To fail to do so suggests he:
    – has no vision
    – he does care whether the Scots are part hers in the UK
    – he’s scared he’ll get taken apart (which will look bad for him back home in the south east too)

    If it’s either of the first two the Scots are probably better off independent of Cameron, but are they better off independent overall?

    Premier Icon sadmadalan
    Subscriber

    @igm – why should the No campaign be required to show that life would be better? The vote in Scotland is about if the people living in Scotland want to leave the UK. It is about the Yes campaign convincing people. At the moment it seems the Yes campaign is trying get the No campaign to come up with alternatives so that they can attack that. Perhaps the Yes campaign could come up with their plan and start providing details. What about a currency, what about EU membership, … It just seems to be set of headline grabbing statements, which may or may not be accurate.

    Premier Icon MoreCashThanDash
    Subscriber

    I think Cameron is both scared and clever here – he knows Salmond would make him look a chump in a debate.

    He also knows that Salmond would make a debate about gaining independence from Cameron’s Tory England, which isn’t quite the point of the issue imho. By taking the step back and trying to turn the debate into a discussion between two opposing Scottish points of view I think he is being very astute. And I happen to think he is right – it shouldn’t become a protest vote about the current UK government, it should be a considered decision about the best long tem decision for the Scottish people.

    allthepies
    Member

    Should be Salmond v Darling no ?

    As mentioned above, Salmond is just trying to engineer a Scotland vs England bunfight.

    Premier Icon igm
    Subscriber

    Sadmadalan – I was born and educated in Scotland, much of my family still live there, but I’ve been in Yorkshire for 21 years and briefly in the US and Italy too. I don’t support independence. Both Scotland and the rest of the UK benefit greatly from the union.

    However Cameron will on the back of this (like he didn’t before) come across as an arrogant swine, portraying himself as too grand to talk to the Scots people. If he’d gone he’d have looked like an idiot – Salmond is the political equivalent of a knife carrying bar room brawler (and unfortunately a good one) and he’d have carved CMD up. They both know it.

    I’ve met Salmond – he’s detestable. But millions of Scots also detest Cameron and they’ll (with help from Salmond) see this as a snub to Scotland.

    Actually I also find Cameron detestable too. And Clegg (unfortunate name – horsefly). And Minibrand.

    Struggling to think of a good politician on the front benches. Some of the lifelong backbenchers are OK.

    Allthepies – or perhaps Westminster versus Holyrood which seems valid.

    athgray
    Member

    glupton1976 ‘If you were born inside on the Scottish side of the border you are Scottish’.
    I was glupton, and thankfully I am more than just Scottish. My wife however was not.

    Premier Icon Northwind
    Subscriber

    sadmadalan – Member

    What about a currency

    Nothing to be said here that’s not been said before- The Yes campaign are in favour of keeping the pound, the No campaign are in favour of scaremongering, and the UK government has refused to discuss it making it impossible for the Yes campaign to give details. Course, this doesn’t stop the No campaign and the UK govt demanding details and pretending it’s a Yes campaign weakness.

    sadmadalan – Member

    Had Dave agreed to the debate then Salmond would have turned it into an England vs Scotland debate.

    It already is- we have an English parliament ruling over Britain right now, that’s one of the main reasons people here want out. We’ve not voted the tories in since the 1950s but we still get the useless ****s in charge. A lot of Scots aren’t sure if they want independance or not- but most Scots are damn sure we don’t want conservatives in charge. And since we’ve done all we can about that up here, damn near annihilating them at the polls, and we still have to suffer them…

    athgray
    Member

    Northwind. I don’t believe the Yes campaign are in full support of the pound. I think many would still like to join the Euro but feel that this may be a step too far to persuade many undecided voters.

    big_n_daft
    Member

    binners – Member

    This doesn’t just infuriate people in Scotland. Have you seen how many votes he gets in the North West, North East, Midlands or Wales. If you wanted an independent North, then you’d want exactly the same – Dave spouting off as often as possible. He does your job for you

    who is your MP? who is the MP for the considerably less affluent area directly to the North? 😉

    Premier Icon Northwind
    Subscriber

    True that- Yes campaign contains some variety of opinion just as the No campaign does. Course, the referendum only decides that we will be independant, it’s not a vote for a government- these decisions will be for the elected government of scotland to decide and implement. The Yes campaign can only say what they want to happen. But that seems to get lost in the noise a lot.

    big_n_daft
    Member

    imnotverygood – Member

    Anyone who believes that Salmond wants to have this debate for any other reason than because it would work to his advantage is being either disingenuous or just plain naive. But I suppose he has try something to change the way the polls continue to show a lack of support for Independence

    simple, get the rest of the Union to vote on whether to keep them in the Union, plenty people are fed up with ex-pats going on about how wonderful in the old country, Welsh, Irish, Cornish nationalists will want to set a precedent 😉

    athgray
    Member

    I don’t agree Northwind. The Yes campaign message does not get lost. They are quite forceful and very clever in how they put it across. The same day that the Yes campaign were staging a well organised rally in Edinburgh, the No campaign were handing out flyers in the street like they were trying to persuade people to go to a golf sale. I am perturbed by the attitude of the Yes campaign that assumes that it holds the moral high ground. It is as if you are to feel ashamed and embarrassed by supporting the union.

    Premier Icon muddydwarf
    Subscriber

    Ask us South of the Border to vote – you’ll have independence in a heartbeat!

    big_n_daft
    Member

    The same day that the Yes campaign were staging a well organised rally in Edinburgh,

    the same one attended by Flemish nationalists?

    The VVB, which campaigns for Flemish independence from Belgium, was an official participant at the rally. “Scotland and Flanders are one, joined on their way towards independence and real democracy,” said its chairman, Steven Vergauwen, in Edinburgh yesterday. At the same event last year, the VVB’s president, Guido Moons, even spoke from the platform alongside Salmond.

    athgray
    Member

    It saddens me that people in Scotland feel so distanced from working people in Newcastle, Manchester, Liverpool, Birmingham and even London, that they feel closer ties to Flanders, Iceland and Norway. Most Scots probably can’t even point to these countries on a map. Most probably know where our ‘overlords’ in England are though.

    Premier Icon Northwind
    Subscriber

    athgray – Member

    I don’t agree Northwind. The Yes campaign message does not get lost

    I didn’t say it does- what I said was, the fact that the Yes campaign isn’t setting the rules for an independant scotland is lost. They’re campaigning for it, they’re not running it. People ask- will you join Nato? Will you join the EU? Will you join the Euro? And the answer is “This is what we think we should do- but what do you think? Vote for that”

    athgray – Member

    Most Scots probably can’t even point to these countries on a map.

    They’ll certainly struggle to point to the country of Flanders on a map. TBF I have no clue where this post was coming from, why do you think people in Scotland feel closer to the Belgians than the English? We share a tie with other nations too, it’s hardly exclusive. (and clearly you understand that you don’t need to be one nation to feel a bond)

    big_n_daft
    Member

    It saddens me that people in Scotland feel so distanced from working people in Newcastle, Manchester, Liverpool, Birmingham and even London, that they feel closer ties to Flanders, Iceland and Norway. Most Scots probably can’t even point to these countries on a map. Most probably know where our ‘overlords’ in England are though.

    how much of the electorate is a non “Scots” EU national, but Scottish resident and on the electoral roll?

    ernie_lynch
    Member

    And Iceland isn’t a real country, it’s the name of a supermarket chain.

    Premier Icon teamhurtmore
    Subscriber

    I find the argument for greater independence but retaining the pound bizarre and illogical. If the complaint now is that Westminster doesn’t look after Scottish interests enough, how would being independent but having zero (not just not enough) input to monetary policy and interest rates be an improvement?As McCrone notes (drawing on Ireland as an example) such and agreement would place major comstraints on Scotland.

    Then what conditions would be imposed if the BoE was to remain lender of last resort? Would the BoE place any prioiety on reflecting Scottish interets? Would they “wee ‘eck”.Then the Uk government would still have to approve Scotlands fiscal policy if Scotland wanted to issue £ denominated bonds with guarantees. Independence, what independence?

    At least there are folk like John Kay who have done proper analysis and realise that these constraints would ultimately lead to the requirement to set up a seperate currency with all the goes with that. Sad that after all thee years, the SNP haven’t thought this through fully. But nothing new there….

    athgray
    Member

    I thought that is exactly what you said Northwind, but if I mistook that then I apologise. I would join the EU and NATO, on the Euro I am undecided. I currently have EU and NATO membership so am fairly happy.

    athgray
    Member

    I don’t know big_n_daft but I bet it is not enough to overturn the percentage that can’t point to Belgium, Iceland and Norway.
    Feel free to point out the answer and the relevance of your point.

    Premier Icon Northwind
    Subscriber

    Equally, what’s the relevance of all the belgium, iceland and norway chat?

    athgray
    Member

    I did not bring up Belgium. I did refer to Iceland and Norway, as these are both countries that the SNP have recently been at pains to draw comparisons and ties with.

    Premier Icon scotroutes
    Subscriber

    big_n_daft wrote:

    how much of the electorate is a non “Scots” EU national, but Scottish resident and on the electoral roll?

    Some answers here

    The census showed the proportion of the Scottish population born in Scotland was 83%, with 9% born in England, 0.7% in Northern Ireland and 0.3% in Wales.

    Of those not born in the UK, 15% were born in Poland, 6% in India and a further 6% in the Republic of Ireland.

    athgray
    Member

    Scotroutes. Are you trying to promote the ethnic diversity of the population in Scotland?

    Premier Icon Northwind
    Subscriber

    athgray – Member

    I did not bring up Belgium

    But you did start the diversion into “scots feeling closer ties to flanders”… Though why you think that, I have no idea.

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