We’re way OT here anyhow. this is a thread about a couple of teenage girls! It’s hardly a cage match!

But you knew it would go that way, right.

mitsumonkey – Member
And what’s with this ‘martial arts are nonsense’ talk? Learning to block, counter strike, kick, punch, dodge, defend yourself? Not only that the extra strength, fitness and self confidence you gain from it. It isn’t nonsense at all.

That’s all nice from a peraonal development people of view. But my observations are that the psychology of fear and how to instill that in others is more important.

Btw I’m not talking about myself personally here incase anyone think is that. I’m a big shite bag that’s useless in a fight! 😆

teasel – Member
But you knew it would go that way, right

Not really just how the discussion happened to go. Only so many time you can say, kids fight, get over it. They’ll live.

I’m a big shite bag that’s useless in a fight!

you wanna get yourself some martial arts training then seosamh77 😆

😆

Hooray! As the father of a 3 month old girl…. I am allowed to contribute to this thread!

Sounds like this is a really great opportunity to talk to your daughter about what life lessons she can take from this. Just basic stuff like why she thinks it might have happened, how she can deal with that sort of situation in future, whether she thinks the punishment was proportional, how she is going to deal with this individual in the future etc etc.

Kids are at school to learn about lots of different things – one of them is how to get along with other people. You’re not doing her any favors by stepping in. At 14, she should be learning how to deal with this sort of thing herself.

I think the schools response sounds proportionate.

Oh God, what did I start! Sorry all. Get a tad upset when people mention going to the local karate class to learn defense. Tradition martial arts are great for fitness, discipline and sports though. post was probably best suited to a different thread as this one relates to two teenage girls rather than an adult being attacked.

Depending on how serious the situation was either let the school deal with it or get the police involved. That or teach some good elbow strikes…….runs and hides 🙂

Her Father got fed up with this went into the school and threatened the teacher with real physical violence if it carried on,

At which point the police were informed of a threat of violence and the father received a letter asking him only to attend the school if specifically asked too. And the school’s behaviour policy rumbled on.

School’s are going down the restorative and not punitive route to try to aolvwnproblema as it’s been rightly found that most issues are not deep rooted.

All must be given the chance so even the sociopath must go through the behaviour policy, probably several times, before outside agencies are involved. Permanent exclusion is pretty much a thing of the past as the authority have to pay for the child to attend another school.

I now work in behavioural support and as the policy for the worst offenders comes from above our hands are tied. Police are involved but until the kid hits sixteen they also are pretty much toothless. I do know that in some cases the police know the kids birthday and are just waiting so they can treat them as adults.

At which point the police were informed

Nope, the idiot didn’t call the police. The teacher had put himself between a rock and a hard place. Think about it, if he had gone to the police he would of had to admit to doing nothing about the bullying which was part of his job. I don’t suppose that would of been well received from the head, letting it escalate to that level.
This really happened I’m not making it up, honest.

Anyhow not fighting is best

This clip seems pertinent here 🙂

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_Ycw0d_Uow[/video]

I had lots of run-ins with bullies at school. When I was younger I used to fight. Then I grew up somewhat and talked my way out of everything.

For those claiming martial arts are not useful in self defense, here’s one. The cop gets his gun out in the car and puts it away. He gets attacked with an iron bar but only suffers minor injury – he wins the time for the assailant see a tiny bit of sense and back off.

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LcB58cAWgBA[/video]

Retreat if you can, defend if you have to, fight back decisively only if you really need to – anything that won’t put your assailant out of action first move is perhaps more dangerous than doing nothing..

I’m an ex teacher and have no sympathy for bullies. I had a female head of department who was punched in the face by a thug (only a few days suspension), I was threatened by the same group and as the threats were racially motivated I walked out – I wasn’t going to risk either getting hurt, or getting suspended or a criminal record for defending myself too well. A no win situtaion, and a very British problem..

Teach her to punch back. Bullies simply need stood up to. Really no need for the Police IMO!

I can’t believe withdrawal of pudding hasn’t been sanctioned by the school.

anything that won’t put your assailant out of action first move is perhaps more dangerous than doing nothing..

Seriously OT again, but this. Unfortunately not all situations can be talked down. If somebody is intent on causing you bodily harm you need to do everything you can to stop that and give you chance to take flight. This necessitates violence, not civil or nice, but your safety should take precedence. Teaching situational awareness and learning some simple techniques might just save you from serious harm. This is where the majority of traditional martial arts fall down in my experience. The fact that they can instill practitioners with a false sense of security just makes it worse. I would think that the officer in the above clip will have been given some sounds training and not just performed to get a belt.

That’s all nice from a peraonal development people of view. But my observations are that the psychology of fear and how to instill that in others is more important.

I have to agree, at school age at least. Saw plenty of kids who knew ‘martial arts’ get a kicking at school, mainly because when push came to shove the were still intimidated

Teach her to punch back. Bullies simply need stood up to.

Mate of mine at school was getting hassle from a thug. Ended up kicking the crap out of said thug….mate spent next 6 weeks taking a different way home from school to avoid reprisals from his mates and brothers…

Retaliation is fine as long as its not just going to make things worse in the long run..

Edukator

For those claiming martial arts are not useful in self defense

Not sure if that’s directed toward me but I’m not saying that.

funkmasterp

This necessitates violence, not civil or nice, but your safety should take precedence. Teaching situational awareness and learning some simple techniques might just save you from serious harm. This is where the majority of traditional martial arts fall down in my experience. The fact that they can instill practitioners with a false sense of security just makes it worse.

There are no simple techniques that will save you, only training against live resistant opponents for hours a week over weeks, months and years. Both traditional martial arts and “street lethal” self defense techniques fall down because they rely on injurious techniques that can’t be practiced 100% without serious injury. So they both become a theoretical dance, and depending on the individual they might promote overconfidence, heightened aggression, paranoia etc.

For those claiming martial arts are not useful in self defense, here’s one. The cop gets his gun out in the car and puts it away. He gets attacked with an iron bar but only suffers minor injury – he wins the time for the assailant see a tiny bit of sense and back off.

I think it also helps that he’s about 9 ft tall and built like a granite outhouse!

My BiL is a prison officer, and is part of the riot squad (whatever they’re called) in his prison. I think he has a variety of techniques to defend himself and disarm / neutralise an attacker, not sure if any of them involve punching them in the face though.

Are there no self defence classes that involve not getting hit rather than learning the ninja crouching tiger cock punch and such like?

Learning to dodge a punch and wriggle out of a headlock, put an assailant on the floor and so forth seem like safe and useful skills to me. Isn’t that what Judo does?

If you have a modicum of pity it’s hard enough to do it to a stranger much less a classmate.

I was systematically bullied for a large chunk of my high school years. Part of it was exactly this, I wouldn’t fight back because despite being nine stone wet through I was frightened of hurting someone. The reason I’ve lived this long is because I was a slippery little shit and could do a standing 40 yards faster than anyone else in school.

Every case is different of course, but my aggressor finally started leaving me alone when after three years something snapped one day and I snottered the bastard.

Edukator – Reformed Troll
For those claiming martial arts are not useful in self defense, here’s one. The cop gets his gun out in the car and puts it away. He gets attacked with an iron bar but only suffers minor injury – he wins the time for the assailant see a tiny bit of sense and back off.

The attacker doesn’t back off due to his martial skills, he backs off because he’s intimidated by the larger man showing no fear, imo. (And cause the attacker is clearly the type who only knows how to hunt in packs.)

Cougar
Are there no self defence classes that involve not getting hit rather than learning the ninja crouching tiger cock punch and such like?

Learning to dodge a punch and wriggle out of a headlock, put an assailant on the floor and so forth seem like safe and useful skills to me. Isn’t that what Judo does?

Brazilian jiu jitsu, judo, wrestling all do this. If you can control someone, you can decide whether to punch, elbow gouge, break limbs or put to sleep etc. Or not. And fundamentally they come into play when someone stops you from walking or running away.

seosamh77

The attacker doesn’t back off due to his martial skills, he backs off because he’s intimidated by the larger man showing no fear, imo. (And cause the attacker is clearly the type who only knows how to hunt in packs.)

Exactly this. The (albeit giant) cop has obviously been inoculated to this type of stress and isn’t fazed despite the determined attacker with his “iron bar”.

Think we should possibly start a separate thread to discuss martial arts. I’ve been lucky in that I’ve had chance to learn from some great teachers over the years. I started off watching old Shaw brothers and classic Bruce Lee movies. This in turn developed in to practicing traditional martial arts. I would recommend them to anyone as a means of exercise, bettering oneself, sport and to delve in to the history of the arts.

As I got older I became more interested in the practical side of things. Self defence and situational awareness, cutting out these traditions as it were. I witnessed some horrendous things being taught and this lead me to researching teachers. This is something I would highly recommend. I ended up taking lessons with a gentleman that had refined his own system and taught to everyone from professional bodyguards to skinny little me.

As Jimjam correctly states you can’t 100% practice, but live full contact sparring under stressful conditions helps and is really the closest you are going to get. I’m not a violent man, but believe if you are going to learn something, especially something as serious as fighting, do it as right as you can. I was unlucky enough to have to use some of what I learned and firmly believe that if I hadn’t things could have been bad for me. Basically someone attempted to mug me with a weapon and I simply reacted. They ended up on the floor and I ended up running quicker than I thought I could. Without the training I think I would have simply cried and lost my possessions and possibly been badly beaten. I was wracked with guilt and shame when the adrenaline wore off and still feel bad when I think about it now.

I’ll end with the fact I’m a lazy bugger these days and haven’t actively sparred or practiced in about 15 years.

Not really just how the discussion happened to go.

Uh…we’re on the same thread, right. In which case, yeah, it did.

teasel – Member
Not really just how the discussion happened to go.
Uh…we’re on the same thread, right. In which case, yeah, it did.

Is there a reason why you are attempting to bully and intimidate me? 😆

🙂

Are there no self defence classes that involve not getting hit rather than learning the ninja crouching tiger cock punch and such like?

Aikido. All techniques are for defense or restraint.
No attacking moves (other than for the purposes of distraction)

Also teaches you to fall over without hurting yourself.

a group of them confronted daughter who said it wasn’t her and on of them just punched her. Until I get to speak to the teachers that’s all i know.

Surely, the question is – what does FeetJr want to happen?
She might not want to take up aikido/brazilian jujitsu/karate/judo/all of the above. She might not want the police to be involved. She might just want a cuddle off her daddy.

perchypanther

Aikido. All techniques are for defense or restraint.
No attacking moves (other than for the purposes of distraction)

Also teaches you to fall over without hurting yourself.

Next to useless in practical terms, and that’s opinion of an Aikido black belt I used to work with.

No live sparring. No resistant opponents. Every other grappling art has moves which control and restrain but are practiced live, along with break falls. Many of the joint locks, wrist locks and holds are common to most grappling arts.

DezB
She might not want to take up aikido/brazilian jujitsu/karate/judo/all of the above. She might not want the police to be involved. She might just want a cuddle off her daddy.

The internet has spoken – she must become a warrior 😀

Next to useless in practical terms, and that’s opinion of an Aikido black belt I used to work with.

Agreed. That’s kinda what attracted me to it in the first place.
I didn’t take it up because I ever thought I would get into a fight.

Done correctly it’s a thing of beauty*. It lacks the aggressive element that is inherent in almost every other martial art.

*Done incorrectly it bloody hurts

Don’t think I’ve ever seen a thread get derailed to this degree. From school issues to Steven Segal’s art of choice in four pages!

I always fancied learning one of the crazy art forms from the Shaw Brothers movies. Mad Monkey Kung-Fu or Drunken Boxing.

OP – your daughter should take that punch and use it (alongside her new martial skills) to become a night time vigilante. Some sort of British Batman. Badger girl or the fox?

Please consider Judo even if only for a year or so. Most classes will be very mixed so you daughter wouldn’t feel self-conscious

Being able to fall properly (works for MTB OTBs too), break holds and get attackers off balance is so useful when you really need it. Then run (as above posts)

+bonus = Thug usually left sitting on butt feeling a bit silly in front of his/her mates – rather than bleeding and hell bent on revenge

Also teaches you to fall over without hurting yourself.

Beer has given me that ability. At least until the next morning.

Some sort of British Batman

jimjam – Member

Oh dear, I must disagree. I too have studied eye gouging, throat punching and testicle kicking and unless you’re a sociopath… you just won’t be able to use it.

Or you play in the front row 😆

How hard was this punch? I remember being punched/punching fairly regularly at school and the worst I remeber is being shouted at. Guess maybe that was when a bit younger than 14, but a days punishment seems reasonable to me?

And what’s with this ‘martial arts are nonsense’ talk? Learning to block, counter strike, kick, punch, dodge, defend yourself? Not only that the extra strength, fitness and self confidence you gain from it. It isn’t nonsense at all.

Because in an actual fight, the one that wins – 9 times out of 10 – is the one that says nothing and is crazy enough to throw the first hard punch by blindsiding you from nowhere or by picking up a brick. Training helps with coordination, but everything goes out the window within seconds.

No matter how much training you have, if you upset somone like the above then you are going to get it. As others have said, it’s best just to keep your head down unless you don’t mind getting a beating, in which case you’re probably a crazy yourself. People who go to self defense classes and think that it helps are simply deluding themselves.

Just for anyone who thinks that going to self defense/martial arts classes will help – and will boost their confidence – this is what an actual fight looks like and what “self confidence” will get you embroiled in.

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MVGijAEvUM[/video]

Nasty, isn’t it? Unbridled aggression wins the day. There could have easily been some very dead people as a result of that brilliant display of human intellect. But some people weirdos enjoy it so much that they don’t mind being on the losing end, remember that – the next time you think you can look after yourself.

Basically, stay safe and don’t be an idiot.

This week I’ve been dealing with a 14yo girl that’s been getting into trouble.a fair bit. In our chats I found that she’s a karate black belt and does kick boxing. A fair few of the boys think she would take their heads off. But the fights have been like in that video in a busy/crowded area with bags thrown first. No karate just windmilling.

And the procedure is. Short-term exclusion followed by readmission meeting, promises made, promises broken, trouble, short term exclusion, repeat.

Ok, bit of an update. Spoken to Jnr ( just got home today). The truth has been given by one of the group of girls who admitted to hacking daughters fb account after seeing her password.
School have been fantastic and very supportive, so all is OK. Jnr is happy to hang out with a different group.
Funnily enough, the girl who did the hacking has since received grief from the other girls about what she did (none of this from Jnr)
With regards to self defence we try to get Jnr to avoid confrontation but if absolutely necessary then she can defend herself. She was just taken by surprise.
She is a good kid, and well liked/respected by her teachers so we think she did the right thing by not retaliating.

Happy conclusion despite stw internet warrior bollocks 😀

I would advise against letting other people log into your accounts