before people started pushing BF many people didn’t even bother trying – bottles were entirely the norm according to my mum.

Yep. We’ve had friends that were told by their mums that it “wasn’t natural” to continue breastfeeding after six weeks and the baby should be on a formula as soon as possible. 😯

We went to NCT classes and made a bunch of good friends who were all going through the same thing. We still see all of them.

The teacher we had was great – very pragmatic, no nonsense and completely grounded. She gave us a *lot* of information we would otherwise have had to work out for ourselves, and certainly far more than could be crammed into a one day course. I found it really helpful as a dad-to-be.

However, we had friends in the same area who were assigned another course leader who was an absolute nightmare, apparently.
The NCT is great – but the NCT tutor you get very much affects the experience you get.

Very similar experience to Theotherjonv, as it happens – breastfeeding nightmare with our first. The NCT tutor, breastfeeding adviser and community midwife were all excellent – very supportive but also completely practical. It wasn’t working, and at no point did they get all fundamentalist about breastfeeding – they all (separately) said to go to bottle if it wasn’t working.

You’re hearing a lot of conflicting messages on this thread – NCT good, NCT bad, etc etc, and that’s because it’s a pretty variable experience – an organisation run by volunteers who are variously enthusiastic, jaded, skilled and experienced and completely new to the whole thing. My recommendation would be to sign up for it. You will waste money on far more silly, expensive things than NCT classes, and if worst comes to worst you will have met a ready-made baby group.

bent udder>> breastfeeding nightmare with our first…

Hmmm.. can’t think why that would be… 😉

@ molgrips

I don’t disagree with anything you’ve said, but that can be where the issue comes.

The breast is best people can be so evangelical about it that particularly when it’s something you really want to succeed, have tried really hard with and yet still isn’t working after weeks, your message can be interpreted as YOU gave up too easily, YOUR problems would have been solved if YOU had shown time and persistence, and YOU have failed to give your baby a good start in life. Might not sound rational but trust me – i was there with my wife. It was a very hard decision to make up that first bottle, but I’m so glad we did. I’m not sure that people who are heavily evangelical can be open minded.

My anger was that the health visitor had actually reached the same conclusion but was pressured by targets rather than what was right. once we’d taken that decision out of her hands, she was just as helpful if not more so because she enable my wife to manage mixed feeding / expressed milk so we could provide at least some of the natural benefits as well.

I’d support anyone that felt they wanted to try to breastfeed, but i would also caution that it is not the be-all and end-all of being a new parent. If you decide it’s not for you for whatever reason, technical or social, you are not a bad parent based on that decision.

its just a shame non of them live in Skipton

We’re in Silsden so used Ilkley midwives. Apart from being really scatty, they were very good!

When we had our first, NCT wasn’t available. We didn’t bother with it second time around as we knew lots of people with kids the same age and knew how to drive a baby.

Lots of people I know recommend them though as social/ support networks rather than for the content. Some groups really do stay friends for life – my mother-in-law still meets up with her NCT friends 30 years later!

The support network is hugely important. When you’ve been up all night, you’ve found it impossible to make and drink a warm cup of tea and you just need an hour’s break or a bit of a moan it’s great to be able to call on a spare pair of hands. If you can, make a nice wide circle of friends in similar circumstances.

…and congratulations. It’s brilliant.

your message can be interpreted as YOU gave up too easily

Well, that’s a personal thing isn’t it? Mrs Grips had extreme pain and serious problems, but happens to be stubborn enough to press on, and after three months it came good.

We all have our limits.

If you decide it’s not for you for whatever reason, technical or social

Hmm.. being unable to do it is one thing, not doing it because you don’t fancy it is another – isn’t it?

Hmm.. being unable to do it is one thing, not doing it because you don’t fancy it is another – isn’t it?

Yes, it is a different thing. But my point is that the b/f lobby will have you believe that if you don’t b/f, then you are a bad parent as a result. It may be an indicator, as mentioned elsewhere, that there may be a higher likelihood that you will turn out to be a bad parent – but the decision itself is not the sole factor.

Hmm.. being unable to do it is one thing, not doing it because you don’t fancy it is another – isn’t it?

Yeah sorry but I agree with grips there.

“Social reasons” are crap. The benefits are clear enough that not doing it purely because of “social reasons” does make you a bad parent IMO.

You could likewise claim that your bringing your kids up on chips and energy drinks because of “social reasons”.

(I work in a fairly deprived area and it’s not unusual to see 3 or 4 year olds, still in pushchairs, munching on king size Dairy Milk and being wheeled into the chip shop for lunch. 🙁 )

my point is that the b/f lobby will have you believe that if you don’t b/f, then you are a bad parent as a result.

And that’s the unfortunate flip-side. If you’ve given it a go then you shouldn’t be made to feel like that.

You could likewise claim that your bringing your kids up on chips and energy drinks because of “social reasons”.

Strongly disagree here, i’m afraid. Formula milk is not bad for your baby. It’s not AS good as breastmilk but it is not bad. Giving your baby formula is nothing like bringing your kids up on chips and coke. It’s a bloody good alternative, if breastfeeding is not for you for whatever reason.

As I said, it may be an indicator that weaning will involve transferring them from formula onto chips and coke, but giving them formula itself is not the issue.

But it’s perception too.

What judgement would you have made if you’d seen the NCT mums out 6 weeks after the births, and 3 of them breastfeeding and my wife giving our daughter a bottle? Immediate impulse is ‘she should be breastfeeding too’.

I picked up the book of that piano playing woman who advertised shampoo for a while – forget her name – a memoir of her pregnancy. On the page I opened she complained about people trying to persuade her to at least try bf – she declared that ‘it’s not for me’.

You’re quite right – it’s not for you at all….

Whichever way you get it, you absolutely need a local support network of people who are going through what you’re going through at the same time. Not a year after or even 6 months after, but at the same time.

We got that through our NCT class and three years later, we are all still friends and still see each other socially at least once ever few months (more now that it’s birthday season!)

You cannot underestimate the importance of the support network; without the NCT group I strongly suspect the outcome would have been much much worse for a few of the women, my own wife included, when they suffered from terrible post natal depression.

In the first six months after the babies were born, I think the mums were together maybe three times a week at least, some weeks it was every day.

Everything else you can take or leave, but the group support you get from the class you can’t really put a price on. If you can get that some place else then great.

Well, that’s a personal thing isn’t it? Mrs Grips had extreme pain and serious problems, but happens to be stubborn enough to press on, and after three months it came good.

[TRUMP CARD] my wife was hospitalised and put on a drip because of complications caused by persevering with breast feeding. at no point did anyone tell her to stop, in fact quite the opposite, until she saw a specialist clinician who was not linked to maternity care. some might call this clinical negligence.

Look, this isn’t supposed to be a discussion on merits and otherwise if breast vs formula, sorry for taking it that way.

NCT may be good, it may not, my recommendation would be to do it but take your own salt and add liberal pinches as needed.

some might call this clinical negligence.

I would, or at least poor diagnosis.

However like I say, there’s a long way between that and ‘I don’t want that thing sucking my boobs’

Oops. Just checked in again, and I appear to have inadvertendly derailed this thread somewhat with my semi-flippant comment on breast-feeding counsellors. Sorry about that, OP, I didn’t realise it was an STW trigger topic. 🙁

Just don’t try it on mumsnet. You think this is bad…!

We did the NHS class which was excellent and skipped the NCT one.

That said mrs trb is still loosely involved with the NCT 5 years on – The Nearly New sales are great for buying a selling kit & clothes!

Mrs trb made a whole new social network via the baby groups, singing groups, messy play group, toddler groups etc etc etc and I made a new network of riding and drinking buddies via the mrs and the kids!

Just don’t try it on mumsnet. You think this is bad…!

STW on politics bad or STW on conveyor belts bad?

As for NCT my experiences are the same as everyone elses. Do it as the contacts you make are invaluable. I go riding with the other Dads at least once a week! 😈

Why hasn’t anyone do eHarmony for expectant families. Seems a lot easier/cheaper than NCT classes which the NHS provide for free but in a less social setting.

We did NCT and NHS. NHS was great, very pragmatic and informative – they called a spade a spade and recommended you did whatever was right for you and the baby. We learned a lot but didn’t really click with the other attendees – mostly just mothers though as it was a midweek daytime thing, they were all surprised to see me there week after week 🙂

NCT was OK, but all a bit earth mother and felt to us more like they had an agenda other than helping you cope with what is probably the hardest thing you’ll ever do – no drugs, breast is best, blah blah blah. That said, because it was all mums and dads we all got on very well. The women were all very supportive of each other before/during/after birth, us men got to meet for curry and beer from time to time. After a while some drifted away but my missus is now BFF with one of the NCT girls and we all see a lot of each other.

I’d recommend doing both as you get the best (and worst) of both worlds. Of course, with the second we didn’t do any as we knew it all by then!

STW on politics bad or STW on conveyor belts bad?

Go fopr both the more and more varied the information the better.

We did NCT and 2 evening NHS classes. The NCT benefits were very much driven by the other parents to be.Ours was a good group and my wife remains in contact and often gets and gives support.

The Nct class also went through all the birthing options and painrelief ,in our group the bias towards natural was not overwhelming, given our experience of birth it was helpful to know the full range of options as we went on to use them all …

The only downside of NCT was the woman we came to refer to as the Breast Feeding Nazi. The Nhs coverage was actually better more informative and less judgemental.

The NHS classes were bigger and in general more lecture rather than seminar. The Attendees were more diverse from teen’s to middle aged Doctors.

I am now a recognised expert in all aspects of child birth and child care as they relate to one particular child, regretably the only other recognised expert on Crankbrat tends to dispute my theorys on a regular basis.

Giving your baby formula is nothing like bringing your kids up on chips and coke. It’s a bloody good alternative, if breastfeeding is not for you for whatever reason.

Absolutely, and that wasn’t in any way the comparison I was intending to draw. My apologies.

NCT was good only for meeting people, but that in itself is more than worth it.

For the breast feeding ‘if you make a choice you’re a bad person’ stop and have a think quite how this makes people feel when they are struggling before spouting your over opinionated shite off will you? Buch of evanjelical yogurt knitting arsewipes.
At what age did you stop? Hope it wasn’t before nipper was 3+ otherwise you’re absolutly no better.

Do it for the social bit, you’ll benefit from having people with tiny babies at same time as you in same area.

transapp: not sure if that was aimed at either me or molgrips, but both of us have clearly said that the “bad person” is the one that refuses to even consider breastfeeding because they don’t fancy it, not people who have tried it and are “struggling”.

At what age did you stop? Hope it wasn’t before nipper was 3+ otherwise you’re absolutly no better.

Nonsense.

All classes are good for the first child as it gets you into the social circle and makes you realise that none of you actually understand what’s about to happen/has just happened.

I personally found the NCT lot cliquey, boring and desperately trying to live up to some new age, middle class stereotype. That’s probably not representative of NCT per say, more the geographical area we are in. I quickly got bored of it and them.

Love a load of judgey blokes going on about whether women should breastfeed and under what circumstances they are allowed to stop or not try.

None of your bloody business how someone else chooses to feed their baby – feeding formula isn’t child abuse you know.

None of your bloody business how someone else chooses to feed their baby – feeding formula isn’t child abuse you know.

I’m quickly coming to the conclusion that there aren’t actually any “breastfeeding nazis”…

…only “formula zionists” 😀

PCT course was OK, didn’t go into specifics like how much it will hurt, what happens when things go wrong, how tight to put on a nappy – the sort of stuff you might want to know. Met a few friends there and had a useful tour of the delivery suite. “Birth plan” was a joke. Provided practically no foundation for what turned out to be a traumatic birth and a nightmare for breastfeeding.

Didn’t bother with NCT, but met people who had been to the same class, subsequently. Seemed more of a social circle than anything else. Not a broad circle, either.

Sadly the best preparation for birth was having already had one! The second was easy by comparison.

Oh and don’t say breastfeeding nazis on mumsnet as they go MENTAL.

“Oh and don’t say breastfeeding nazis on mumsnet as they go MENTAL”

I used the term or introduced it to this thread so want to be clear crankygirl (and i in so far as i get a say) are very pro breastfeeding and crankbrat has been so fed up till one year at some risk to crankgirl that ain’t for this forum..

Our Nct breast feeding counselor really earned the description and had to be challenged for her “any one can do it every one should do it and if you don’t it’s because you don’t love your baby,” attitude (unfortuanatly that is only a slight exageration of the way she came across)

The truth* is some mothers and babies breast feed easily and well some struggle and some can’t. I’m sure breast is best but the WHO guidelines are for the whole world in some parts of which clean water and sterilisation equipment is absent so there brest is safest . Formula is a perfectly good alternative and people should not be made to feel anxious or failures if it is what works for them.

*in my opinion based on limited knowledge.

Don’t worry crankboy my husband says it too 🙂 (I think you must have met the same woman I did to be honest. She turned up with papers on how breastfeeding makes your baby more intelligent, etc, and told us **** all about what problems you would have and how to get round them. I was left bemused thinking “well, this breastfeeding is a win-win isn’t it? It’s a magical panacea, and it’s also piss easy, everyone can do it. Awesome, sign me up” (actually I thought, there’s something you’re not telling me you weird woman)

And actually, in reality, I found breastfeeding relatively easy, second time piss easy in fact. But it just annoys me when everyone else thinks how you do parenting is their own business. It starts when you get pregnant (what are you doing riding a bike, what are you doing having half a pint of beer, etc, etc) and it never stops. Mind your own business and get on with parenting your own kids!

Mind your own business and get on with parenting your own kids!

Oh look, a child drinking bleach… ah well. Not my business. I guess the parents know best.. 😉

Don’t be ridiculous!! Now you’re comparing giving a kid formula to drinking bleach? What the hell?

Now you’re comparing giving a kid formula to drinking bleach?

Christ on a bike!

No. I’m. not. I’m really really not.

I’m making an admittedly weak joke, hinting that contrary to popular belief, minding one’s own business is not always the best or nicest thing to do for anyone concerned.

Ok, well I knew you were being tongue in cheek, but I think you are deliberately trying to not get my point, or take it too far the other way.

Love a load of judgey blokes going on about whether women should breastfeed

when this is your opening gambit, then you leave yourself open to derisory comments on a male-oriented forum.

Nah, I’m just being accused of a lot of things I didn’t really say (or at least mean).

My thoughts, for what they are worth, come down to this:

Breastfeeding is best. This much is intuitively obvious and is backed by lots and lots of good medical research.

As such, every mum should be informed of the benefits and strongly encouraged to give breastfeeding a good try. That in itself may involve challenging some social bias/barriers/taboos/whatever.

And it does need strong encouragement and proper support, because even without the confusion of social and emotional issues, it is often not the easiest thing to do physically.

However… not everyone can do it and absolutely no one should ever be made to feel a failure for having to switch to formula.

Unfortunately, humans being the emotional creatures that we are, it is completely impossible to balance these two goals. Or even talk about them openly without upsetting people.

As this thread ably demonstrates.

None of your bloody business how someone else chooses to feed their baby

No, which is why I haven’t issued instructions to anyone personally.

However, there is a valid point here which may be debated in public. And the debate should not be restricted to women either.

Have you got kids?!

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSx_42ivLPk&feature=player_detailpage#t=222s[/video]

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