I’m curious to hear how much of your free time (and money) you’ve given to help supervise DofE?

None, too busy picking holes in people on the internet!

Apologies for the grump this morning all. I was tired.

I still stand by:

Volunteers are a) still meeting high standards of responsibility (see Duckmans post) and b) giving of valuable time and effort that has a high value in financial terms and societal terms. It’s a pleasure, but don’t ever think it’s a jolly. It’s ofteno bloody hard work. This year I gave 4 holiday days and three weekends to DofE trips, when I could have been taking my own kids out or doing what I wanted.

Commercial providers meet the stadards above and have to make a living. It’s been a careers worth of frustration that outdoor education is seen as ‘a jolly’ and therefore not valued or remunerated acceptably. Mid £20k would be a really good wage for many in the outdoors, £30k very rare. Yet these instructors can offer life changing experience – positive ones when it goes well, life ending of they get it wrong.

Overheads are also high and increasing, especially transport. We restrict the miles we do now.

In the light of how much we value DofE, paying our funding (money or/and volunteer time) £250-450 seems reasonable.

I’ve now had a few parents complain at costs (we charge £55 for bronze and silver and used commercial company for qualifying gold) this year. One, pair of GP’s, complained at Gold cost this year, and then took family of 5 on three week USA tour in nice hotels, helicopter flights etc. I’m fed up of that attitude from individuals.

As a society, why do we provide maths teachers in all schools, with multimillion pounds of school building, yet rarely provide outdoor education teacher and matching funding?

Once again, sorry for arsey reply. I’m fed up

Wasn’t alway like that Matt, every authority had an outdoor house/centre at one time. But yeah; good point about the lack of value given to outdoor ed. I would happily be a plasterer living in Dundee without knowing what was on my doorstep if I hadn’t been lucky enough to be dragged up the hills as a young in.

Backtracking to the idea that you can do a practise and qualifying in one 8-9 day block: you can’t. Or at least DofE regs say you can’t, but it sounds like some people are offering it anyway. Terrible idea! Think of the feet 🙁

Wow! My daughter did DofE Gold, finishing recently and the cost was <£100. Teachers gave their time FOC and the school did say it was subsided a bit, but I had no idea it was so expensive at other schools. DofE is a big commitment but very worthwhile.

I used to run DoE in my school. I no longer do so, I was forced to give it up.

I am an experienced teacher, 30 yrs in secondary education. A small school, approx 500 pupils (at a 26% FSM rate) and a small staff. Prior to teaching, I worked as an instructor in various establishments in Wales. Many, many years of experience rock-climbing, kayaking, rafting, hill walking, alpine mountaineering, mtb. Multi-day trips etc. For decades I have stayed behind after school for approx 2 hrs twice a week to boost pupils learning at well attended sessions. So- Monday= meeting day. Tuesday =boost session, Wednesday= me time, Thursday= boost session, Friday = me time. Tuesday session was set aside for DoE, Thursday for GCSE revision/ enhancement. I have a mini-bus (and trailer!) ticket, so that made life slightly easier- provided that the county Council officers in the Transport dept in Llanelli could be bothered to actually appear when they were supposed to in the morning, allowing me to get the vehicle.

Headteacher suggested one day that DoE would no longer be ‘supported’ in school because our efforts should go into raising academic standards. Thus, I found myself with no reliable support. I tried to continue things with what support I could drum up but it became increasingly difficult so in the end I just gave it up once the role had been passed onto the resident Youth Worker. I continue to mentor him as best I can/ time allows and help out as and when I can. The scheme has pretty much ceased in the school now.

If a (training)ecpedition was up coming I would pre-visit the weekend before, have a normal working week, a weekend with very little sleep and then a normal full week afterwards, i.e a 14 day stint. It drains you after a while.

I’m sad that the scheme is not really working in my school but tbh I’m not at all surprised. It needs support at all levels, not just from volunteers who seem to be expected to just get on and do it.

I’ll take another bite…

my daughter is a teacher. Her first week of a summer holiday is spent stripping/refitting her classroom(primary school) after a “deep clean”  Her last week is spent visiting parents of the kids deemed @risk/in need, preparing lessons, organising specialists etc for said kids…  then there are the weekends we take her kids so that she can do reports on said kids with “needs” of which there are many….  she is also the senior first aider,  arts co ordinator and now music co ordinator

As for DofE my son benefitted greatly, he got his first job due to the fact he was in the process of doing his gold @18. His original school group disintegrated a few time during the bronze to gold phase. His gold expedition took place in the Black Forest, Germany(2 weeks away) That was 20yrs ago and it would seem not much has changed…

He a.ready had a job @14 from his schools work experience scheme working in a car parts shop. From DofE he got a pool life guard qualification followed by a job at our local pool. He also started training as a leader for both DofE and his scout group. Foot & Mouth scuppered my ML course. He left school, got an apprenticeship then moved away from home before completing his DofE training. Scout hut suffered an arson attack and group folded/amalgamated so that came to an end!!!

We will be encouraging our grand kids to enrol whenever they have the opportunity

A good reminder of the benefits of DofE Trekster. Life improving and changing stuff.

Lapierrelady, yeah the commercial groups sometimes are just churning them through obviously money versus experience. I’m not sure how heavily hinted at the route planning part would be and I’m not sure how they get round the 8week green form submission (well I am they block book an area and use their own assessors).

CHB all school staff I know do it free of charge. The only things my staff have had are a curry on the night before (to go through final points) and a couple of bottles of beer. Money for that comes out of my pocket (them being there helps me and I want to keep good staff). In the dozen or so years I’ve been doing it I’ve not received one bit of personal kit.

It’s now been deemed that I don’t have the experience (ticket) to even take bronze expeds out. I will need to give up another weekend to be allowed to take bronze and two more for a lowland leader award (should have done my ml assessment when Glenmore lodge suggested).

Hahaha Lowland leader award! Shutting gates and shooing Collier into a landrover course you mean! ( sorry)

Duckers yep, we’ve got a young teacher who I’m pretty much training in outdoors. Who is apparently more experienced than me because he has his lowland leader (term used). Last exped he managed to not find a disused railway. Funny how quickly they backed down on the “experience” card when I suggested he run the exped.

I feel your pain, I had to do it 12 years ago when I started teaching (called walking group leader at that point) I didn’t do the 6 weekends training and just turned up for the assessment as I could nav in all weathers, was used to working with kids and kind of went up the hills most weekends. Folk in the group were being asked to get the group to a huge river. I got a cairn that had been pulled over during logging…oh and a 3m wide kettlehole ..on a plateau. Got given a pass through gritted teeth. I was allowed a defer on the ML training; but chose to do it, I would say that it set me up well for the assessment, knowing EXACTLY what they wanted to see us doing. Just in case that is a decision you will be taking.

Probably will ml Glenmore lodge used to do a 2 day refresh, I might do that before assessment.

I did that as well, If you have a mate who is switched on with Nav, walk from the Lecht to Glenmore with his making you lead all the way. Terrible weather and him being enough of a dick to make you want to chin him would add realism as well. That sums up the exped for me.

I did my Summer ML with PyB; we had heavy snow during it, so it was more like winter ML. They deferred the security on steep ground day as they weren’t prepared to run it in the conditions, so we had to go back to complete it.

Duckman, 100th – is ML or LL actually a requirement from DoE or is this LA’s adding an extra layer of regulation on top?  I can understand why LAs get paranoid about this shit but given DOE provide specific training on the slightly different skill set of remotely supervising groups from leading them I wonder why…

interestingly I think 25+ yrs ago the DoE group that ran at my school, which was run by two teachers made a points about not being an official school activity perhaps to avoid much of this nonsense?  I can imagine it will have got worse.

poly – risk assess the activity.

IF your leading a group into terrain that is deemed low hills or mountain (height dependant) and you or someone in your group dont have the qualifications – your risk assessment for the group has failed.

Doing it by the seat of your pants or getting disclaimers signed will not end well should there be an issue. Deemed the responsible leader you are liable for the outcome.

is ML or LL actually a requirement from DoE?

I would hope so, it is the correct qualification for the activity.

I’m curious to hear how much of your free time (and money) you’ve given to help supervise DofE?

Stevious – I don’t keep a log, but enough that I feel qualified to have an opinion.  Just this morning I was completing eDoE assessments for the latest round of Bronze award holders.  These ones weren’t even from the group my son is part of but were a favour for another group nearby.

if duckman posts misleading information in public that might put off others from volunteering for DOE because he implies it’s an insurance nightmare/paperwork headache then he needs called out on it.  If it’s his LA that is at fault then he is probably better placed than anybody to effect change.

Trailrat – but you aren’t leading them they are supposed to be leading themselves.  In many ways you have a much harder task – perhaps more akin to that of a ML assessor/tutor!

I don’t do DoE expeditions “on foot” so don’t know what the rules are, but as far as I can see DOE don’t stipulate any specific qualification.  Certainly a ML cert might be one way to demonstrate the competence needed but so might 15 yrs experience and one of the Doe specific courses that focus on the particular challenges of the scheme.  Making someone who is perfectly capable go and collect bits of paper isn’t how the scheme is intended to work.

@poly – I’m sure you’ll appreciate that from the exped leader’s POV, we have to abide by whatever our Licensing Authority tell us whether we agree or not – they provide us with the license/insurance to provide outdoor activities and have people who are paid to come up with their outdoor activity policies. I certainly don’t have the time/energy/patience to fit policy development alongside volunteering/having a job/etc.

Similarly the qualification requirements vary between Authorities. DofE don’t specify a qualification level as the nature of the expeds varies a lot – there isn’t a specified ‘terrain type’ for each type of exped to allow the award to be as inclusive as possible. This means that each LA will have to make its own judgement as to whether an individual is qualified to lead the activity – I think it’s pretty sensible to base this on a nationally recognised qualification framework to take out a lot of guesswork and grey areas. The training that is provided by DofE is centred around making the exped successful and meaningful for the candidates. The NGB qualifications are designed to make sure the expeds can be delivered safely.

but you aren’t leading them they are supposed to be leading themselves.  In many ways you have a much harder task – perhaps more akin to that of a ML assessor/tutor!

An ML assessor/tutor needs to be qualified to MIA level (considered to be about the same level as a degree). This is in order to supervise and assess trained and experienced individuals.

The NGB awards aren’t just about leading groups through the hills, they are about managing the safety of people in the outdoors.

Ah right; you don’t do “assessments on foot, so don’t know what the rules are” but are qualified to tell people who do what risk assessments/ qualifications we should have. Based on your lack of understanding of the practicalities of managing a group outdoors I am glad you don’t walk…sorry do assessments on foot.

Footflaps: bronze; lowland leader. Silver: lowland leader, above 800m/ crossing water ML.

ALL gold;  ML.

NOW; that is my experience in two different Ed authorities, a BB unit and a council open unit. I am sure Poly will appear shortly to correct me.

Stevious – Similarly the qualification requirements vary between Authorities. DofE don’t specify a qualification level as the nature of the expeds varies a lot – there isn’t a specified ‘terrain type’ for each type of exped to allow the award to be as inclusive as possible. This means that each LA will have to make its own judgement as to whether an individual is qualified to lead the activity – I think it’s pretty sensible to base this on a nationally recognised qualification framework to take out a lot of guesswork and grey areas.

Thank you, that answers the question I originally asked.  I’m not convinced it is the best way as I’ve seen people with NGB quals who aren’t really competent, but I accept for someone in an office who wants to tick boxes it probably covers their arse.

Duckman  – I don’t think I suggested anywhere how to do a risk assessment.  I questioned the apparent need for specific NGB quals, as my experience (with the Scouts, and in particular afloat) was that they were not particularly focussed on bits of paper but were much more interested in the capabilities and experience of those involved.  I’m not suggesting the Scouts have it right – but they are managing to run a very large number of DOE awards (mostly without incident) but, bringing us back “on topic” at seemingly significantly less cost.

No, you questioned both my statements on risk assessments and insurance. In fact even going to the point of accusing me of lying (twice) Just out of curiosity; what is your relevant experience that allows you to judge whether qualifications are competent?  You have admitted you don’t lead groups.

I am rubbish at posting pics on here, but hopefully  that one shows the patch my local Scouts gave me after I ML’ed their walk along the Speyside way. After they were told to get an ML….by the Scouts…

https://flic.kr/p/NpwwuZ tried again!

Of course perhaps it also speaks volumes for the types and remoteness of terrain to be encountered while on their Expeds.

Duckman and my wife both do theirs in similar places for neighbouring LA’s.

It’s almost expected that the exped will be in the Cairngorms and there are a number of infamous cases where school kids have been led to their death in there  by people who thought they were competent.

It comes down to what happens if it all goes base over apex.

AALA and whoever else will want a papertrail of various types at present they will happily accept an 18yo with a LL/ml as having proof of ability over a 45yo with boots on the ground experience.  Councils the rulings in order to avoid being sued.

No one, at present needs a ticket to lead anything in the outdoors, but if you owned an outdoor company would you employ folk with no tickets?

Counter to that I sent a supervisor home from an exped in Galloway because he lost a member of his group and split the rest because he fancied to more challenging decent. He was summer/winter ml, ex RAF mountain rescue and ticketed up the bahookie but was a rubbish supervisor.

Just googling MLTB and noticed that the official text has changed, no longer the classic “Mountain Craft and Leadership” and now something called “Hillwalking” – when did that change?

100th – I think you have managed to make the point about qualification I was trying to make more effectively than I did.   One point to note though is that AALA don’t regulate volunteer or school groups training their own pupils.  That might seem like an omission but I believe is intentional because those groups are assumed to be better placed to assess competence themselves, knowing the individuals and their experience, than when hiring in a “professional” on an ad hoc basis.  It may be council’s don’t understand that.  Likewise when AALA was set up I attended a workshop that HSE/AALA ran which very clearly said that NGB qualifications alone should not be presumed to be evidence of competence.  I don’t know if that is still their position.

Duckman – “You have admitted you don’t lead groups.” – no I haven’t because that would be untrue.  You have inferred that from what I wrote.  You are clearly pissed off with what I wrote about your claims around insurace, I’ll stand by what I said – they were misleading, and its that sort of thing that puts off other volunteers because they believe everything is a paperwork nightmare.

Poly they were accurate statements based on my LA policy, others have backed councils demanding that level of risk assessment up, you not willing to believe that or suggesting that we should change it from within, as you did to a couple of us doesn’t make that level of RA untrue, it just suggests that you don’t have experience of an LA award. Oh; and the AALA don’t licence school groups because they fall under the remit of the LA and aren’t run as businesses, even the mandatory open unit every council has a commitment to run….but I am sure you knew that.

Poly they were accurate statements based on my LA policy, others have backed councils demanding that level of risk assessment up, you not willing to believe that or suggesting that we should change it from within, as you did to a couple of us doesn’t make that level of RA untrue, .

I still don’t think I’ve mentioned the phrase risk assessment anywhere!  I’m not saying its not what you’ve been told but if you’d put the effort into arguing with me into having a sensible discussion with your LA you might just find that either someone there is “over-interpreting” their rules or can help you out with the challenges you are facing (e.g. suggesting as others did that you make all the pupils get themselves to the start or splitting the group in 2 and one group is “self” transporting, or who knows – finding you a second minibus and driver!).

Oh; and the AALA don’t licence school groups because they fall under the remit of the LA and aren’t run as businesses,

Eh, I think what I said was consistent with that: “AALA don’t regulate volunteer or school groups training their own pupils.” It was 100thflr who implied they do.    But just in case you are being pedantic – being run under the auspices of a LA is not an exemption for the AALA.  LA outdoor centres have to be AALA accredited, regardless of whether they are run for profit or not (s3(1)b); and non-LA schools are exempt even if the school is fee paying (s3(2)b).

even the mandatory open unit every council has a commitment to run….but I am sure you knew that.

Well I didn’t know that every council was required to run one, so that is something new.  Potentially it offers a possible “lower cost” option for the OP if he’s still following the thread?

No, you suggested they didn’t regulate school groups to try and make a point about competence to lead groups. To be honest I am glad you “don’t do assessments on foot” it would be an accident in the making. Not all is lost though, To paraphrase yourself, the amount of time you have spent being a self appointed expert of sweet fa on here you could have had a Summer and Winter ML in the bag.

Wow! My daughter did DofE Gold, finishing recently and the cost was <£100. Teachers gave their time FOC and the school did say it was subsided a bit, but I had no idea it was so expensive at other schools

It varies so much depending on how the school structures it. A big pool of voluntary staff will mean lower costs. Having to buy in external staff either because of a lack of suitably experienced / qualified volunteers or to meet demand will bump costs right up.

If schools want to put huge numbers through it it’s just not practical or fair to expect staff to give up that much time voluntarily. As others have pointed out this is one of the ways in which the award has outgrown it’s original ethos / structure.

I brought up AALA because, I think, in the case of something going to court “gold standards” will be referred to AALA being one such body. I know that our councils OE body is scared shitless of AALA and is applying what they suggi across the board. So we must comply.

Well, if you got latest DofE email, we are all having a couple of hours wander in the park and staying at hotels, with less supervision, no purpose and no practice at Bronze.

At a stroke, decades of DofE’rs just got got done over and Tarquin can put DofE on his CV for minimal effort, and therefore impact.

Grrrrr

You are remotely supervising a group rather than leading them. So theoretically you can supervise the exped, but not take them training! It does depend who the LA is…some schools are their own LAs which makes things very interesting re training/ risk assessments

Yeah Matt, I got the email. Apparently the expedition was the least completed section. Seems bizarre to me as the kids always want to do the expedition and never bother chasing assessors for the rest!

Yes but in schools it’s pretty much assumed that the remote supervision or not you are responsible for the group and it’s safety. You should have checked routes etc

I’ve been licence holder at an independent school and I had to be damn sure if we had a faeces fan interface all bases were covered. But then my managers trusted me and were willing to fly top cover.

@matt well that sucks.

@johnnystorm bronze completed and silver expeditions in the bag here, never got the rest done but tbh the walk was the best bit even if it was a killer (turns out our leader was a sadist and only ever sent us to the worst midge infested hellholes across Scotland).