Dear daughter about to sign up, rumour is it’s 450 quid which seems very steep to us. Are we paying for the assessors to have a nice jolly too. Mate who’s a deputy head used to run his schools version and reckoned 200 quid was nearer the mark.

Depends where her group elect to do their gold as to how much it costs.

My wife did hers on the massive central as a kid

Other friends of ours did a coast to coast on bikes in Scotland  = mucho cheaper.

Or she could do it as it’s meant to be done. Plan area, routes and transport themselves, fill in green forms and submit to licensed authority. Wait to hear if they have an assessor and any route changes etc.

Certainly we didn’t charge that much but it could easily get to that cost. I would do a recce of route, some won’t, but transport, kit, supervisors, potential over nights either side, costs build. Is it practice and qualifier?

Let’s work this out.

DofE fees.

Massive admin time and chasing the pupils to get stuff in.

Expedition.

supervisor, who spent likely two years and £5k gaining Mountain Leader. Can make some pretty damn important decisions about keeping your daughter safe. 4days delivery, half a days prep, carrying £1k of personal kit to make it happen at £150day

Asessor, that useful external check on standards and second adult help in case. Again, likely ML and Asessor amd also same costs £150/day

Minibus costs £1.50 a mile, so maybe 100 miles. If you’re heading somewhere north, that could be 400 mile round trip… £150 – £400

Are the pupils being leant kit? Usually at least multiple maps, maybe £300 worth per pupil.

Camp sites are now £6-10 per pupil, per night. Say just one night on paid site is still £90 (7 in group plus Asessor and Supervisor), per exped.

Training – you have at least three afternoons, again at £100 per half day.

You do a practice exped and qualifying.

If you think it’s a nice jolly, you go get qualified and volunteer for half a dozen next year. For every nice group and OK weather, you have another two days in rain, midges, group getting lost, away from your own family.

So I’m upto about £4100-4500, divided by 7 pupils, minimum.

I tell you what, you share with us what you get paid for laying concrete. Two of you, 8 days, stay away from home, you kit, insurance, travel etc.

Or she could do it as it’s meant to be done. Plan area, routes and transport themselves, fill in green forms and submit to licensed authority. Wait to hear if they have an assessor and any route changes etc.

This +1

I used to help a Very Posh Girls School run theirs, and be the creepy bloke (and my wife, and another couple with two Dept Heads) following them in the minibus to make sure a) they did it and b) they came to no harm.

And MoaB says is the nuts n bolts of it these days.

And maybe look at it as a life experience for your child? Cost Shirley is irrelevant?

My girlfriend charges 80 quid for the practice expedition. 100 for the actual assessed expedition.

There is the cost of the book on top of this. I think that’s 22 pounds.

£380 for my daughter ( I think we paid £350 when my son did it 2 years ago)

school is very supportive – teacher running it puts a lot of time into if and part of the charge goes into replacing/ updating communal kit

for all of the training provided I don’t think it’s bad value

Cant speak for gold, but our son did bronze a couple of years ago, £25 through his school, done locally, teacher  as instructor, they passed our house at one point. The local grammar school charged £250. He wont be doing silver or gold, he spends all his spare time (and resources) mountain biking, working, and travelling 2.5 hours a day to sixth form college!

Edit – I dont think £450 is bad value for what it is, but would hope there was support for lower income families

I did bronze, silver and gold through school (about 10 years ago). Honestly can’t remember the costs, but I can say it was worth it. Everyone I knew who completed it became more mature and well rounded as a result, and many became lifelong friends in the process.

Our supervisor did make a point of doing some more exotic expeditions, e.g. the Cairngorms and Isle of Lewis for gold practice and assessment. Not the cheapest from Lancashire, but I’m glad we went to the hebredies, it certainly added to the challenge! Other trips I remember (probably silver level) were Dartmoor and Mid Wales, again a few 100 miles round trip. Yes we could have used the Pennines on our doorstep, but the spirit of the exped isn’t to do it in view of your school/home.

My eldest has signed up for Bronze through school and it’s £280

We charged £300 I think, for training, practice and assessment for gold. All the equipment needed could be borrowed, included all transport and campsite fees etc. When all levels were out we had 10+ staff out of school. But if you already have a group and kit, and can work out the paperwork, it’s very cheap to do by yourself. You can wild camp at gold too which makes it even cheaper.

I’m getting charged £23 for a school photo on a crappy usb stick. £450 sounds cheap.

MoaB – your response whilst probably accurate comes across as hostile; the scheme was originally conceived to run on the goodwill of teachers, scout leaders etc.  It definitely seems to have become more commercialised in the 25 yrs since I was a participant, although my son is still doing it virtually for free via the Scouts*.

The OP is definitely mistaken though if he thinks that the supervisors/assessors are on a huge jolly.** If anything the costs have been pushed up by parents/schools/LAs being concerned that ordinary teachers were not appropriate to supervise this sort of activity and encouraging hiring in professional supervision.  I’m not convinced that is good for the scheme or outdoor education in general.

I think the important things to understand though are what does the 400 include (and how/when is it paid – not everyone that starts finishes).  As alluded to above their is a registration fee with doe, there is transport, there is equipment, there is the practice expedition (or multiple if not done Silver already, or if they aren’t deemed ready after the first one).  The other thing to remember is that the expedition is only one part of the award – whilst there are cheap or free ways to achieve the other sections – you could run up bills from learning skills, improving physical ability and even from volunteering.  Certainly for the extra Residential Activity which gold requires you are likely to have another significant bill.

Now, I assume this is a school quoting the price? if the OP’s child really wants to do it and cost is the fundamental barrier there are other places to go.  In fact in my limited experience I’d suggest the participant may even enjoy it more, and possibly gain more from it by doing it 1. Away from the school friends; 2. With a group who are more enthusiastic; 3. With a group who’s parents aren’t expecting to “buy them” a DoE award…

*that is possible because people, including myself, provide the time to support it without getting out our calculators.

**obviously some are, but they won’t usually come back to do it again…

As a teacher running a Gold unit, probably comes in about £100. Log book, 2 x £10-15 for minibus to the start of practise and final. One nights bunkhouse before the final at under £20, we loan kit for a payment of £10 and a deposit of £50. The assessor is a local ex teacher and we pay his fee and a bottle of malt. I am a ML and have two colleagues to help. However we are lucky as we get funding from a couple of local businesses who recognise the value of it. This allows us to buy kit such as tents, female specific packs, decent inflatable mattresses etc. I did my ML to open it up, the school used to have to pay for outside help and it was eye watering and when the budget cuts started it was being passed onto the participants. I did my training one year and assessment the next and the total cost of my ML training and assessment was covered the first year I had it. If it is a small group and you are having to hire in, then £450 is probably fairly realistic based on that.

even transport can be a huge issue if you have a young leader.

My wife has a constant battle finding folk that can drive the minibus.

There is a local authority test that is paid for by funding – but in order to do that you must have D1 entitlement on your license – ie have done the standalone test or have it on your license as an older licence holder.

There is no funding for your D1 – even when one of your core functions within the school is outdoor and active education – Duckman / Matt id be happy to be corrected on that and it would make Mrs T-Rs life alot easier.

So they end up having to get outside drivers or a heap of cars – which when you have ruck sacks and the average teachers car is 3 students and a teacher to a car.

You are quite right TR, I often drive the bus for netball etc if I am free as the cost of putting somebody through minibus test if they are too young to have D1 automatically is massive.(Google tells me it went in 1997) I think that is the reason schools aren’t doing it. There is also an insurance issue if parents are driving participants to a school organised trip in their own cars, but not if they are taking them home for some reason.

Jeeesus moab calm down, I only asked. Thanks for your ever so slightly moody response, I’m well aware of the time and effort etc, however when one school can do it for 200 ish and our school is 450 I just wondered where the difference came from.

As for concrete, i just watch it being laid 😉

The school can do it for £200 because of the goodwill of the teachers. However as things get tighter then you have to wonder if giving up your weekend for a silver practise is worth it when the school gives you please takes on your only free periods the day before you go…. Of course what you aren’t factoring in is her residential….mwahahaha….I helped with the Stonehaven open unit while my other half’s kids were there… One gold went Dolphin counting on a VERY nice boat and another went to an orangatang sanctuary. I knew the Dad of the ginger ape counter, he was nearly greeting at the cost.

Nothing wrong with MoaBs post.

He’s just clearly laying out the costs involved, that so many it seems don’t take into consideration.

#kidsareexpensive

#noshock

My wife has a constant battle finding folk that can drive the minibus.

This. My other half used to drive the minibus around between check-in points etc Very few staff could drive the bus, which is how they roped her in in the first place. The whole operation is now run by an outside company.

the scheme was originally conceived to run on the goodwill of teachers, scout leaders etc. It definitely seems to have become more commercialised in the 25 yrs since I was a participant, although my son is still doing it virtually for free via the Scouts*.

I thought most outward bound qualifications were like that, my ML training was run at cost, run by a Scouts Mountaineering Group – mind you that was 30 years ago….

Just looked at an outside provider aand it looks like the costs are from £780 for training, practise and qualifying. Not including transport and food.

Oh and as above nothing pisses off people that give up their time to volunteer for things like this more than folk of the opinion that it’s a bit of a skive. Leaving Thurs evening to exped weekend return Sunday evening watch group bombburst leaving you to return vehicles go home then get cover lessons is a pita.

I’m afraid this is the reality of the education system you/we the tax payer are prepared to pay for. DofE in schools used to run on goodwill and unpaid overtime and volunteering basis. The work to put on such a trip has gone up significantly with the increase in H&S and safeguarding required to keep everyone (inc parents) happy. With teacher workload increasing significantly in the day to day job those who either feel they have the capacity or quite frankly the willingness to go the extra mile is diminishing. The fewer teachers who are prepared to help the higher the workload there is on those that do. Until something goes pop and you have to bring in an outside company to run it as you have broken your staff prepared to go over and above.

Think about it – you are a teacher and there are a group of kids that want to do an expedition at the weekend. If you give up your weekend the kids get to do it for a minimal cost or if the school buys in the staffing it cost the parents more. If you do it and something goes wrong you are in the shit for something you didn’t have to do in the first place. If a paid company does it you spend the weekend with your family (probably still marking mind) and someone else is in the shit. The parents who save their money if you volunteer to do it unpaid rarely thank you for going the extra mile and are also the same parents quick to complain when you are doing your day (proper) job. The motivation to put yourself in this position is vanishingly small sadly.

spot on. you’re obvioiusly in the profession, or close to it like i am

+1 convert & +1 Matt OAB

I’m an ex-DofE assessor and my Wife is a Teacher with the same qualification. Schools are generally subcontracting stuff like DofE out as they don’t have the staff willing to volunteer to do it (for the reasons convert listed)

I think £450 is reasonable for a gold expedition, as if you just book up with one of the ‘tour operators’ doing it (you’d be away for 8-9 days – do the practice trip, have a day off and then straight into the real thing) you could be looking at the high 100s..

DofE is just yet another activity which has become ‘industrialised’ to a lesser or greater degree.

Mibbe we could get teachers to do it on their 8 week summer break?….. 💥

I will bite, it is 6 and I already do it during that time.

I think £450 is reasonable for a gold expedition, as if you just book up with one of the ‘tour operators’ doing it (you’d be away for 8-9 days – do the practice trip, have a day off and then straight into the real thing) you could be looking at the high 100s..

Who’s assessing that?  It would be unusual for someone to come back from a practice who isn’t a bit broken – even if its just from lack of sleep.  I’d expect there to be some time to reflect on what could have been done better, anything they’d like to train more on and equipment that might be improved (or shared between the group saving weight etc).  I’d really not expect the bulk of the main expedition planning to be done until the practice was complete.

I thought most outward bound qualifications were like that, my ML training was run at cost, run by a Scouts Mountaineering Group – mind you that was 30 years ago….

There are still usually groups running things on a shoe string but there are also plenty of people cashing in.  I guess as schools try to differentiate their pupils in a competitive careers landscape its almost inevitable that they are putting greater emphasis on this sort of stuff.  When I did it only the really committed people did their DOE, now it seems (and it may be different demographics at play) that its much more common.  That means the supervisors have to deal with far more people who have no desire to be there, along with their parents who probably have no real interest other than when to drop them off and pick them up.

There is also an insurance issue if parents are driving participants to a school organised trip in their own cars, but not if they are taking them home for some reason.

I reckon that is #fakenews.  Can you elaborate?

I reckon that is #fakenews.  Can you elaborate?

Why would I make that up?

I have to provide risk assessments for private cars if they are used to ferry pupils to an activity or they aren’t covered by the council insurance. Likewise if I had a people carrier and along with another teacher in the car, took pupils on a trip I would have to declare it and pay more on my car insurance.

Air cadets do all stages of Dof E…….at no cost other than normal atc fees……

What duckman said.

We have to pay for business cover for the wife’s car and lodge proof of the cover with the school to allow her to use her personal vehicle to take kids out.

It was the use of the car for work that forced my hand to give up bangernomics for the wife. My own personal risk assement said I’m.not having other people’s kids driven around in a 15 year old car with minimal safety devices

<p>That’s not answering the point that “There is also an insurance issue if parents are driving participants to a school organised trip in their own cars, but not if they are taking them home for some reason.” I presume that’s badly worded and means some sort of official lift share (which I can see) and not just parents driving their kids to a pickup point (which is bonkers).</p><p></p><p>My sister in law did her DoE and Queens Guide through Guiding UK, pretty sure it never cost that. IIRC she’s a Mountain Leader now as well. Maybe external organisations such as Scouts/Guides, Cadets etc. are better placed for these things, I know a lot of the stuff we used for DoE when I was at school was mil kit from CCF stores.</p>

well i kind of assumed he meant bob drives bobs kid and xyz other pupils to the start point rather than bob driving just bobs kid to the start point.

i can see how that risk assessment would fail at the first hurdle.

To clarify; if I am providing transport to a duke of Edinburgh walk, I have to provide a full risk assessment for the minibus, including how I deal with potential hazards such as “pupils distracting the driver.” If the bus was full and a parent offers to drive two kids, they are not covered by the council insurance, so that( and thus the whole walk) has no chance of getting passed through the council. As my walk ends at Linn o’ Quoich my responsibility for the pupils ends on completion of the walk as we do not offer transport home. As they are no longer on a school visit, they organise parents cars to take them home. In my 12 years experience of organising both doe awards and school trips abroad,the adoption of policies like this are usually driven by parental complaint, and the council legal dept seeking to avoid litigation.

That’s interesting, duckman. As a volunteer helper on DoE canoe training and travelling to expeditions, I’m sure there must be a reason why you can finish the trip at the end of the walk, but not start it at the beginning of the walk, but I can’t think what it is; can you clarify please? If anything, I’d expect the other way about, since the start time is fixed but the end time is variable.

Hi OP, as mentioned above the school probably has to hire people in to supervise the groups when they are out. The qualifications required to supervise most Gold expeditions is the Mountain Leader, which is a very difficult and expensive qualification to achieve – some schools will be lucky enough to have 1 or 2 MLs on their staff but others wont.

You’re not tied to doing the DofE at your school (nor is the school obliged to offer it) so if you’re not happy with the cost then look to see if there are other groups in your area that might be able to run the scheme at a lower cost. I think this part of the DofE website is the right bit: https://www.dofe.org/opportunity-finder/opportunity-for-dofe-participant/

Good Luck to you and your daughter!

Greybeard, I assume it is because I am providing transport to the start. Coincidentally, the open unit was a lot less regulated, there was only one Gold group and it was 4 cars to the start and nightcap for the helpers.

duckman

Why would I make that up?

I’m not sure that purveyors of fakenews are necessarily making it up – but perhaps either intentionally or inadvertently misrepresenting the facts.   You said:

There is also an insurance issue if parents are driving participants to a school organised trip in their own cars, but not if they are taking them home for some reason.

The fact you know there is more to this than you present is actually pretty much exactly what fakenews is!  Rarely is it totally made up its just you only presented 1/2 the information to make your angle more impactful.  In reality you know you can provide no transport and the issue goes away – in fact parents CAN drive their children to the trip in their own cars.  As it happens I don’t believe that there is actually an insurance issue even if you did as you tried – although someone in your LA legal department may be making a meal out of it.  Its not that uncommon for a parent (at non-DOE activities) to drop off or pick up a child from an event separately from the rest of the group to fit with other commitments.  THAT child’s start/finish points are just defined separately.

I have to provide risk assessments for private cars if they are used to ferry pupils to an activity or they aren’t covered by the council insurance.

I’m not sure anyone would expect them to be covered by council insurance.  Many organisations manage this stuff all the time without making a hash of it.  I’m not surprised that a LA can make a hash of it; I’m a bit surprised that anyone who can be responsible for a group of teenagers on a 4 day hike with minimal supervision/intervention isn’t also able to sit down with the relevant person at the council and point out the stupidity of the bollox they are making up, or find a workable solution.  Almost certainly nobody has even consulted their insurers!  Many years ago I worked with a uniformed youth organisation which used to hide behind bullshit insurance clauses.  Two classics were “we weren’t insured unless in uniform” and “we weren’t insured for camping”.  The former was just myth passed down from person to person – when I spoke to the insurer they were adamant we were covered for any officially organised activity; the latter was true – but when I asked what it would cost to cover a specific camping trip – the answer was “no change to the premium”.  So I am always sceptical about insurance being used as an excuse.

Likewise if I had a people carrier and along with another teacher in the car, took pupils on a trip I would have to declare it and pay more on my car insurance.

A teacher using their car to ferry pupils around is a very different prospect from a parent ferrying their own, or a friend’s children around, that should be obvious and certainly moves you at least into a grey area as to whether it is “business use” or “social domestic and pleasure”.  I can tell you that at least some insurers will issue a letter confirming that if you are doing the activity on an entirely voluntary basis, which is not part of your specific job, is outside normal school hours and not receiving any time off in lieu you are deemed to be performing the task on a “social domestic and pleasure” basis and are covered.  I’ve heard of other insurers who extend to business use in these circumstances for no additional charge.

Actually, can’t be arsed.

@poly that’s a very long post picking holes in duckman’s reasoning. It’s probably worth bearing in mind that he’s doing what the LA tell him to do in order to provide an extracurricular activity that he’s doing on his own spare time.

I’m curious to hear how much of your free time (and money) you’ve given to help supervise DofE?