Viewing 40 posts - 41 through 80 (of 96 total)
  • Cyclists who kill pedestrians could face tougher sentences
  • super_12
    Free Member

    This will give the Karens down the local woods another thing to screech at anyone daring to ride a bike there.

    The same Karens that let their mutts run around of the lead shitting everywhere.

    Tories appealing to intolerant arseholes. What’s new?

    MoreCashThanDash
    Full Member

    It’s hate speech and vitriol and really really needs to stop

    I did a Teams presentation at work describing the abuse, threats and actual assaults I’d encountered while going about my normal daily activities and asked people what they thought it was for – they assumed it was racist or homophones. They were surprised it was because I was on a bike.

    NB – in no way trying to claim that what we go through is on a par with racism and homophobia

    RustyNissanPrairie
    Full Member

    I stopped bike commuting after 15years of the same route as i figured this government had failed to provide me with a safe environment to do so. The spite/bile and them Vs us culture war wore me down. The Facebook/Daily Mail cycle hate comments represent the average Brit I encountered daily.

    I now sit in the same traffic I used to cycle past in an old polluting 2.0litre diesel and give a virtual shrug of the shoulders.

    Bunnyhop
    Full Member

    Reading about the ‘new’ highway code rules to help cyclists and pedestrians on face book is showing the worse of human nature
    The hatred and vitriol spouted against people who cycle is astonishing.

    Many years ago I used to cycle commute to work and the abuse I got from car drivers was outrageous, with threats on my life. I’m a small woman who weighs nothing. These were always from men and always when I wanted to turn right. Happy to work from home now.

    I’ve always said that for ‘one’ day only, all cyclists should get off their bikes and drive, the roads would be solidly jammed.

    intheborders
    Free Member

    Many years ago I used to cycle commute to work and the abuse I got from car drivers was outrageous, with threats on my life. I’m a small woman who weighs nothing. These were always from men and always when I wanted to turn right. Happy to work from home now.

    TBH I got the same for a couple of decades commuting in/around London, but I was a on a 1000cc motorbike – and 6’2″ in bare feet, never mind full leathers and a crash helmet.

    Tin tops just hate the ability of 2-wheelers to not get stuck in the same queues as them, don’t take it ‘personally’.

    cookeaa
    Full Member

    Reading about the ‘new’ highway code rules to help cyclists and pedestrians on face book is showing the worse of human nature
    The hatred and vitriol spouted against people who cycle is astonishing.

    FB isn’t all of humanity, just the worst bits distilled.

    This time of year is always the same for an uptick in online bicycle hate and punishment passes. It’s summer, more people ride bicycles, which pisses off of those still stuck in their tin boxes, then the sun comes out and those bastards on bikes are quite clearly having a better time on top of not sitting in a jam… You can at least understand why people sat on the edge of existential dread, who don’t really want to acknowledge that their PCP’d Merc is destroying their finances/health/metal wellbeing might focus all their negative energies on the outliers who have chosen the clearly better mode of transport (that day at least)…

    Everyone’s “brave” from behind a keyboard, or a steering wheel.
    The truth is it’s going to get increasingly expensive to drive any sort of vehicle regularly, or indeed fast, and a good chunk of the vocal arseholes could well find themselves pulling the old Apollo out of the shed for an enforced change of perspective.

    The combination of Covid, “Fuel crisis” and a Global economic downturn could well be the best thing for cycling (as transport) in a good long while. Shame about all the other side effects.

    Spin
    Free Member

    Bertrand Russell famously said that America was ‘a land where law and custom alike are based on the dreams of spinsters’.

    The UK is fast becoming a land where law and custom alike are based on the dreams of gammons.

    poly
    Free Member

    Tories have no doubt decided or discovered that most cyclists don’t vote Tory.

    I wonder if that is true (or at least the corollary – most Tory’s don’t ride bikes – is probably not true?). Given that cycling is the new golf – it seems unlikely. BUT 1. Most cyclists don’t ride bikes in manners that are likely to kill pedestrians; 2. Many cyclists are just as frustrated with shite cycling as other road users are.

    Of course, if they actually wanted to tackle “nuisance” cycling (pavements in busy areas, far too fast for the conditions, jumping red lights) they could do all that with some simple old-fashioned coppers enforcing existing laws – because just as with shite driving if you are very unlikely to get caught you keep doing it, others see you getting away with it and it becomes contagious.

    HOWEVER, whilst I think this is pointless headline-seeking nonsense law-making, which does nothing to make our roads safer and likely is a small step backwards in getting better safety for bikes and less car use, IF such steps are needed to make e-bikes and e-scooters more widespread then it might not actually be such a waste of time. I’m still staggered no escooter maker has managed to get gov to approve them outside the specific trials. Surely one of them has a tory donor on their board?

    matt_outandabout
    Full Member

    This is all about playing to your audience and a popularity contest.
    It has nothing do with road safety, facts and real world issues.

    desperatebicycle
    Free Member

    However, there are plenty of spectacularly stupid cyclists who really do deserve to be prosecuted and e-bikes/electric motorbikes will only make that worse. I’m glad this guy wasn’t killed, but he really does deserve to be prosecuted for his stupidity

    Pressed play expecting to see a cyclist-pedestrian near miss. See a cyclist ride into a car -ie ABSOLUTELY **** ALL TO DO WITH THE THREAD! (ooh, I almost shouted then).

    Go ahead, bang me up for life for killing a pedestrian! Cut my nuts off with a blunt kitchen knife, I really don’t care what the punishment for it is, I don’t need a deterrent!

    intheborders
    Free Member

    BUT 1. Most cyclists don’t ride bikes in manners that are likely to kill pedestrians

    Sorry, but what an utterly stupid statement.

    No one rides a bicycle in a manner likely to kill IMO.

    thols2
    Free Member

    No one rides a bicycle in a manner likely to kill IMO.

    It does happen. Not saying it’s common but trying to say that it never happens is ridiculous.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-41028321

    poly
    Free Member

    Sorry, but what an utterly stupid statement.
    No one rides a bicycle in a manner likely to kill IMO.

    I am aware of at least two cases where someone has ridden a bike in a manner that did result in the death of a pedestrian AND it resulted in prosecution – i.e. people in the police / CPS with access to the evidence believed there was a case to answer to that the rider of that bike was doing it in a dangerous manner. Now I’m not sure if your opinion is that no matter how stupidly you ride a bike it is not likely to kill a pedestrian. I can just about accept a pedantic argument on likelihoods, but its entirely foreseeable that riding a bike recklessly in areas with pedestrians is likely to result in a collision. The chances of such a collision resulting in death are perhaps not high but its far from impossible – the reason most cyclists where helmets is because the collision of your skull with a solid object at typical cycling speeds can kill. It similarly follows that impact of the unprotected pedestrian’s head with yours, your bike or body has enough energy to kill. Likewise internal injuries from being hit by a bike at high speed would hardly be unlikely and could be fatal. With the rise of ebikes – the likelihood of higher speeds and greater mass in those collisions increases. Hit a frail elderly person and break their hip and you may well be accountable for their death even if it is many months later from a secondary infection.

    Perhaps Grant Shapps legislation is not headline grabbing nonsense after all if it forces some cyclists to think for a moment whether they are as low risk to pedestrians as they think.

    desperatebicycle
    Free Member

    at least two cases

    You mean two cases don’t you.

    intheborders
    Free Member

    It does happen. Not saying it’s common but trying to say that it never happens is ridiculous.

    I didn’t say that deaths didn’t happen, I said “No one rides a bicycle in a manner likely to kill IMO.”.

    Try reading what I said again.

    thols2
    Free Member

    I said “No one rides a bicycle in a manner likely to kill IMO.”

    IMO, this guy is a menace to the public and disproves your IMO.

    jeffl
    Full Member

    Trying to work out what he was even trying to do in that video.

    What a throbber!

    IMO, this guy is a menace to the public and disproves your IMO.

    This video popped up on my IG so I went to his profile, the fella is a tool and deliberately swerves at oncoming traffic. When, and it is a when, he gets flattened I shall await the usual screams for the driver to be hung.

    kerley
    Free Member

    do you think he could have killed that car?

    BruceWee
    Full Member

    Wow, I can’t believe the taxi driver managed to survive that collision!

    poly
    Free Member

    I read it again. Are you saying that:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-56320121
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-62153644
    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/aug/14/cyclist-charlie-alliston-killed-pedestrian-blamed-crash-kim-briggs-court-told
    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/spectator-killed-watching-downhill-mountain-12653866

    None of those were likely to happen? I think the court decided differently in each case.

    You mean two cases don’t you.

    No I meant at least two cases – the ones I could name off the top of my head. The official stats say 5 in 2019. A quick google found me another two (including the MTB one at an event which might be worth people here pausing to think about – next time some ramblers are standing by your line admiring your skills or waving their poles shouting get a bell!).

    Are you honestly saying these are just purely freak accidents, and there was nothing about the riding that made them more likely to collide with and kill a pedestrian? That’s car driver mentality.

    kerley
    Free Member

    They are accidents that were not helped by the riding. The same riding in many other cases would not have resulted in an accident, so it is an accident by that measure.

    HoratioHufnagel
    Free Member

    What I don’t understand is why it’s so hard to convict drivers of death by dangerous driving. That seems a much more important issue to solve, otherwise whats the point in the new law if it faces similar problems?

    In this case a driver was cleared, despite DRIVING ON THE PAVEMENT and running over a 4 year old on her scooter
    https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/road-four-year-old-esme-12787742

    BruceWee
    Full Member

    One thing I haven’t seen mentioned yet (I might have overlooked it) is that, in a collision involving a pedestrian and a cyclist, the odds are 50/50 on who is going to come off worse. This is from just a few days ago:

    https://www.essexlive.news/news/essex-news/cyclist-fighting-life-after-crash-7419134

    It’s difficult to find the figures on this and I think the impression is heavily skewed given that a cyclist killing a pedestrian makes national news but a pedestrian killing a cyclist barely makes regional news.

    I somehow doubt pedestrians who kill cyclist through carelessness will even be prosecuted, let alone to the same extent drivers are.

    nickc
    Full Member

    What I don’t understand is why it’s so hard to convict drivers of death by dangerous driving

    Because presumably the jury couldn’t determine that he met the criteria for a charge of Dangerous Driving. ( i think it’s a 2 part question, was it dangerous? And would an average Joe recognise it as dangerous?)

    In the particular case, it doesn’t say he was driving on the pavement, and the article says that the road is now a one way, which suggests to me that he probably mounted the pavement to get out of the way of an oncoming car/vehicle and knocked over the girl killing her- but I’m guessing, I don’t know either way. But a jury didn’t think he was guilty and presumably they saw what actually went on?

    dissonance
    Full Member

    What I don’t understand is why it’s so hard to convict drivers of death by dangerous driving.

    Because most jury members will be drivers and unlike say murder are likely to think “I could have done that” and hence consider it not dangerous.

    BruceWee
    Full Member

    https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/people/cyclist-riding-electric-bike-dies-after-crash-with-pedestrian-in-yorkshire-3555656

    Another one from a few months ago. I’m sure there are a lot more that we just don’t hear about.

    desperatebicycle
    Free Member

    No I meant at least two cases – the ones I could name off the top of my head. The official stats say 5 in 2019. A quick google found me another two

    Do you memorise and investigate people killed by cars in the same manner? You should post a list of those too, once you’ve done your google investigations, like.

    thols2
    Free Member

    do you think he could have killed that car?

    If his bike had hit a pedestrian, they could easily have been injured or killed. It’s ridiculous to argue that no cyclist ever endangers other people, some cyclists are utter dicks.

    BruceWee
    Full Member

    If his bike had hit a pedestrian, they could easily have been injured or killed. It’s ridiculous to argue that no cyclist ever endangers other people, some cyclists are utter dicks.

    You forget to mention that the taxi driver could have swerved into a bus stop full of OAPs, toddlers, and bunnies.

    But yes, cyclists have killed pedestrians by acting like utter dicks (and also by just riding along and having a lapse in concentration).

    But also, pedestrians have killed cyclists by acting like utter dicks (and also by just walking along and having a lapse in concentration).

    In addition, cyclists have killed cyclists by acting like utter dicks (and also by just riding along and having a lapse in concentration).

    And I can’t be sure about this but I’m pretty sure that pedestrians must have killed pedestrians by acting like utter dicks (and also by just walking along and having a lapse in concentration).

    I’m not sure why you’re getting so hung up on one particular vulnerable group killing another vulnerable group here when the total number of all the scenarios listed above are pretty much insignificant compared to the multiple different road users killed and seriously injured every day by motorists.

    BruceWee
    Full Member

    You could try to ride your bike in a way that was likely to kill a pedestrian all day every day. The chances of you actually killing a pedestrian are pretty low unless you specifically target the elderly and there’s still no guarantee you’ll manage to do it.

    The problem is that, like I said, in any collision between a bike and a pedestrian it’s 50/50 who is going to come off worse.

    So yeah, you could go out and try to kill or injure pedestrians but the fact is you’d be killed or injured yourself before you’d managed to bag more than 1 or 2.

    You could literally run over pedestrians all day in your car and you would be absolutely fine.

    anagallis_arvensis
    Full Member

    I know which I would choose out of my car, motorbike or (one of many) bicycles I own if I was to go out and try and kill a ped so that statement whilst contrived is actually true I expect.

    No one rides a bicycle in a manner likely to kill IMO.

    The likelihood of killing someone, even whilst riding like a a complete knobber is low, compared to driving like a complete knobber which is higher

    desperatebicycle
    Free Member

    That kid crashing in to the taxi
    – wouldn’t call himself a cyclist
    – is underage, so wouldn’t be liable for the penalties talked about in the OP
    – only endangered himself of getting some scabs on his hands and knees
    – so posted twice and still totally irrelevant.

    thols2
    Free Member

    You could try to ride your bike in a way that was likely to kill a pedestrian all day every day. The chances of you actually killing a pedestrian are pretty low unless you specifically target the elderly and there’s still no guarantee you’ll manage to do it.

    Most traffic accidents crashes are actually low probability events, but there are millions of cars on the road so that low probability turns into a fairly large number of deaths.

    The problem is that, like I said, in any collision between a bike and a pedestrian it’s 50/50 who is going to come off worse.

    In a head-on crash, the smaller vehicle or person comes off much worse because of conservation of momentum. If a 2000 kg vehicle and a 1000 kg vehicle collide at 100 km/h, the wreckage will be travelling at 33 km/h in the direction of the larger vehicle. The smaller vehicle will have changed velocity by 133 km/h, the larger vehicle by 67 km/h. The energy absorbed by the smaller car will be 4x the larger car. If a 100 kg bike and cyclist hit a child, the child will come off much worse than the cyclist.

    jimdubleyou
    Full Member

    If a 100 kg bike and cyclist hit a child, the child will come off much worse than the cyclist.

    What if it was Geoff Capes instead of a child?

    BruceWee
    Full Member

    Most traffic accidents crashes are actually low probability events, but there are millions of cars on the road so that low probability turns into a fairly large number of deaths.

    So what are you saying here?

    That the reason there are so few pedestrians killed by people on bikes is because there aren’t that many bikes on the road?

    I think the Netherlands and Denmark would disagree.

    If a 100 kg bike and cyclist hit a child, the child will come off much worse than the cyclist.

    I’m sure the kid would*

    So where are all the stories about kids being killed or injured by cyclists? Don’t tell me it’s a conspiracy and the papers are keeping it quiet because they’re worried it’ll make people on bikes look bad?

    *On the other hand, a kid on a bike hitting a 100kg adult would come out of it worse so I’m not sure what your point is.

    dissonance
    Full Member

    If a 100 kg bike and cyclist hit a child, the child will come off much worse than the cyclist.

    Thats a pure head on crash rather than a glancing impact which is more probable assuming everyone tries a bit to dodge (unless you dodge the same way).
    I had a crash with another cyclist who was going for his strava best round a blind corner and after I swerved just clipped the end of each others bars. He hit the ground hard after losing control whereas I didnt since my speed was slow enough I didnt really lose control. Would have been likely same outcome with even a pedestrian.
    Glancing blow as the bars turn and then it going pearshaped for the rider.

    thols2
    Free Member

    Thats a pure head on crash rather than a glancing impact

    It’s the worst-case scenario. The point was that you can’t assume that a cyclist and pedestrian come off equally in a crash. Bigger point is that cyclists should ride with consideration for pedestrians and other road users, deaths being rare isn’t a licence to ride like a dick.

    convert
    Full Member

    I was the ped in a ped/bike near miss the other day.

    A town centre, walking along a pedestrianised high street. Lad on a bike with a deliveroo bag appeared about 2 yards in front of me at about 20 mph from a side alley. Alley was about a handlebar and a half wide steep set of a few dozen steps he’d taken full bore arriving spat out of the alley blind straight into a pedestrianused area. Then rode calmly away – clearly his standard MO to get around this bit of town. My initial thoughts in chronological order were…..1. that’s some awesome skills there fella, 2. I really hope your bag is empty otherwise it’s mashed, and 3. **** me if I’d be 3 steps further on it would be me mashed right now – he wasn’t stopping even if he wanted to.

    I’d call that riding in a manner likely to cause death/injury to a third party. Yes, he wasn’t on a road, but (I think) same rules apply. To say no bike rider ever rides in a manner that might endanger another is quite frankly a deluded view with a very narrow mindset of what consistutes a cyclist. To be honest it would be bizarre if it was true – we (humans) occasionally **** up in pretty much every scenario – we’re damned inventive!

    dissonance
    Full Member

    To say no bike rider ever rides in a manner that might endanger another is quite frankly a deluded view with a very narrow mindset of what consistutes a cyclist.

    Given its a delivery rider I would be suspicious that they werent a cyclist but were instead a motorcyclist.
    Ultimately though I prefer idiots like that on a bike rather than a car. They are going to be a moron either way but on the bike its a lower risk factor.

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