• This topic has 36 replies, 24 voices, and was last updated 6 months ago by PTR.
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  • Criminal trespass-Police powers to tackle unauthorised encampments
  • Premier Icon BaronVonP7
    Free Member

    Those wearing a Tam’o shanter, control your glee.

    Linky

    Back door criminalisation of trespass?

    Maybe something, maybe not.

    I am against criminalising trespass.

    In the below, Question 2 has me concerned. Bit weasel wordy:

    Linky

    TBH, Most of questions and options seem to be written by a Daily Mail reader. YMMV.

    George Moonboot hysterics (FWIW):
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jan/15/tresspass-trap-law-land-travelling-people-rights

    If it’s been dun, please delete.

    Premier Icon Phil_H
    Full Member

    Similar Act already exists in Scotland.
    Trasspass act (Scotland) 1865

    Premier Icon Nobeerinthefridge
    Free Member

    I’d happily continue to do as I wish in the great outdoors, we don’t have enough polis to enforce existing laws in urban areas, never mind the hills. **** them, another kinder scout mass trespass would sort them.

    Premier Icon tjagain
    Full Member

    One thing I am sure this is aimed at is hunt sabs in England

    Premier Icon tomd
    Full Member

    The police must have their head in hands about this.

    Just imagine the resources required to go in and arrest a large group of travellers, who are not going to make it easy (and why should they?).

    It feels like one of those pointless gammon baiting laws, that will allow the government to shift blame to the police when travellers continue to travel.

    Premier Icon dazh
    Full Member

    One thing I am sure this is aimed at is hunt sabs in England

    There are already laws in place which can be used against hunt sabs. Aggrevated trespass in the CJA 1994 has been used up and down the country and makes litlle difference because the sabs simply ignore it. They’ll ignore this one too.

    Premier Icon Greybeard
    Full Member

    Given the Conservative Manifesto, they are aiming for criminalisation of trespass, not even backdoor.

    Link to the main page of the consultation, as it also gives the email address so that you can avoid the trap questions in the survey.

    The consultation document does say that it’s aimed at travellers, with two or more vehicles, but it may set the tone for later proposals following up the manifesto. Walkers, mtb riders and wild campers should respond to the consultation on that basis (whether it’s a good way to manage travellers is a different question).

    Premier Icon Greybeard
    Full Member

    Similar Act already exists in Scotland.
    Trasspass act (Scotland) 1865

    But very substantially amended by the Land Reform (Scotland) Act 2003. If such an Act is made for England & Wales it needs similar exceptions, specifically stated as they are now in Scotland.

    Premier Icon BaronVonP7
    Free Member

    The police must have their head in hands about this.

    I thought the same.

    The other “thing” that jumped out was the Police would have the power to seize vehicles of people illegally camping/residing (“or likely to”).

    So, you seize the homes of travellers. Right. I can see a bit of downside to that. ‘Specially if the idea is to “move them on”.

    Strikes me it’s like the anti-terrorist laws – MR Wolfgang (RIP) gives us a wave from outside the Labour Party conference.

    Premier Icon v8ninety
    Full Member

    Ever more control of the plebeians via criminal legislation. Cheers, all you idiots that voted Tory. 🙄👍🏼

    Premier Icon DrJ
    Free Member

    The other “thing” that jumped out was the Police would have the power to seize vehicles of people illegally camping/residing (“or likely to”).

    Wild camping, anyone? Now a criminal offence 🙁

    Premier Icon BaronVonP7
    Free Member

    Wild camping, anyone

    Working through the questionnaire, parking up in a lay-by for a quick snooze would be illegal.

    Looks like I’ll have to buy a car with lane change warning and automatic braking, so I can get me 40 winks up the A6.

    (Joke)

    Premier Icon tjagain
    Full Member

    dazh

    Aggravated tresspass needs an additional step to criminalise hunt sabs. this would make it much easier to arrest them

    Premier Icon dannyh
    Full Member

    You can bank on some mean spirited old git trying to use this to limit all access. Recent votes suggest that mean spiritedness is a majority tendency in England in particular, so it ain’t gonna make mountain bike riding easier or more pleasant, that is for sure.

    Premier Icon bikebouy
    Free Member

    Ever more control of the plebeians via criminal legislation. Cheers, all you idiots that voted Tory.

    One suspects, doesn’t one, that this will be met with gleeful abandon in the Cotswolds.

    Premier Icon MrSparkle
    Free Member

    This is a public service announcement
    With guitar
    Know your rights
    All three of them

    Number one
    You have the right not to be killed
    Murder is a crime
    Unless it was done
    By a policeman
    Or an aristocrat
    Oh, know your rights

    And number two
    You have the right to food money
    Providing of course
    You don’t mind a little
    Investigation, humiliation
    And if you cross your fingers
    Rehabilitation

    Know your rights
    These are your rights
    Hey, say, Wang

    Oh, know these rights

    Number three
    You have the right to free speech
    As long as
    You’re not dumb enough to actually try it

    Know your rights
    These are your rights
    Oh, know your rights
    These are your rights
    All three of ’em
    Ha!
    It has been suggested in some quarters
    That this is not enough
    Well

    Get off the streets
    Run
    Get off the streets

    Premier Icon andy8442
    Free Member

    I hate to say “I told you so” but……..

    Premier Icon dangeourbrain
    Full Member

    Unless there’s significant mission creep whilst I get the potential problems this causes for travellers, who are very clearly the intended target, for all the rest of the stuff you’re lamenting the death of I don’t see the worry:

    Wild camping – how many times do you do this with vehicles [two or more at that] involved?
    Hunt sabatouer – ditto
    Walking, mtb, horse riding etc, ditto, and at what point are you moving so slowly as to be setting up ask encampment?

    Camping on the highway, potentially too big a problem for trucks etc, it’ll never pass without some significant ammendments to clarify what “purpose of residing means.” The net result being it won’t apply to stopping in laybys (or anywhere else for that matter) unless you’re looking likely to be there for days or weeks on end.

    There are big problems with the plan but none of them as it stands, to do with anything other than demonising and generally making life more difficult for travellers.

    Premier Icon winston
    Free Member

    Can they confiscate my bike and tent if they find me wildcamping?

    Premier Icon ajaj
    Full Member

    it’ll never pass without some significant ammendments

    In the past you may have been right, but now we’ve get a Commons full of yes-(wo)men who will vote how Boris tells them and a House of Lords fighting for its life that won’t be inclined to pick a fight on this issue.

    Very much like when Tony got all of his wishy-washy vague legislation through.

    Premier Icon dangeourbrain
    Full Member

    In the past you may have been right,…

    … Very much like when Tony got all of his wishy-washy vague legislation through.

    Well that alone should fill you with confidence. Without very significant clarification as to what purpose of residing is it’ll be completely unenforceable any how as there will be a no* way to prove you were there with “a purpose of residing”.

    Wishy washy legislation is a great way to please voters and change nothing.

    Premier Icon tjagain
    Full Member

    dangourbrain

    there is plenty of precedent for this ie laws ostensibly passed for one purpose later being used for another and / or to criminalise previously lawful activity. One example would be protesters being arrested using anti terrorist legislation

    Its obvious this is not just aimed at travellers but at hunt sabs, protestors, pickets etc etc

    Its not paranoia if the really are out to get you

    Premier Icon epicyclo
    Full Member

    Ah, the benefits of an unwritten constitution…

    Premier Icon tjagain
    Full Member

    The tory manifesto includes a commitment to make trespass a criminal offense. Red this to understand ho this is being set up to restrict far more than travellers

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jan/15/tresspass-trap-law-land-travelling-people-rights

    Premier Icon Poopscoop
    Full Member

    I put a post up ages back about the benefits of having a written constitution and was informed by pretty much everyone that we don’t need one.

    Premier Icon Greybeard
    Full Member

    The current consultation is in the context of controlling travellers, but the manifesto commitment was made after the consultation started. The draft Bill could well expand to address the manifesto, so we need to make sure the consultation responses oppose that.

    Premier Icon Northwind
    Full Member

    dangeourbrain

    Subscriber

    Wild camping – how many times do you do this with vehicles [two or more at that] involved?

    I had a quick look but couldn’t see it- does a bike qualify as a vehicle?

    Premier Icon squirrelking
    Free Member

    What happens if two folk are parked up in a car park overnight for an early morning ride? Stealth campers that is, not doggers.

    Premier Icon scotroutes
    Full Member

    Highland Constabulary made it clear many years ago that they would NOT move on anyone parked in a layby overnight as they felt it was safer that drivers could rest if tired. Basically, all of those layby signs with “No Overnight Parking” can be safely ignored (in Scotland at least).

    Premier Icon Sandwich
    Full Member

    Unless there’s significant mission creep

    See how RIPA was misused and countless other regulations put in for one restriction but used elsewhere.

    Premier Icon paton
    Free Member

    What do the police do about trespassers in your house?

    Premier Icon paton
    Free Member

    Wild (camping) I was livid.

    Premier Icon ajaj
    Full Member

    I had a quick look but couldn’t see it- does a bike qualify as a vehicle?

    It doesn’t say. Usually legislation is careful to make the distinction (e.g. Road Traffic Act uses “motor vehicle” and Theft Act “pedal cycles”) and a diligent consultation would ask the question. “Vehicle” by itself in the context of obeying traffic directions applies to bikes too.

    Premier Icon paton
    Free Member

    Do you need to commit an offence to be arrested in Scotland?

    Premier Icon dazh
    Full Member

    Aggravated tresspass needs an additional step to criminalise hunt sabs. this would make it much easier to arrest them

    It would, but in my experience the main deciding factor in sabs being arrested is whether the cops can be arsed getting in the fields and being fast enough to catch them 🙂 (usually not on both counts)

    Premier Icon hot_fiat
    Full Member

    Seems the Ramblers’ Association have looked at this and concluded that it’s essentially the start of a direct assault on people’s rights to access the countryside. They’ve produced a draft response that can be used to assist in completion of the consultation.

    Premier Icon PTR
    Free Member

    I saw this before the election, it does appear to be a back door way to limit access for all. But, it could be an opportunity, if MTBers, Ramblers and horse riders can unite around opposition to this, we can push back, not just to close the door and maintain the status quo, kick the door down, and go for full access to all.

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