I think andyrm has just posted the most sensible thing I’ve read on here all day.

I wouldn’t judge them either, if they weren’t asking the state to pay for the next generation to become the same…

obadiah – Member

Christianity, if false, is of no importance, and if true, of infinite importance.
The only thing it cannot be is moderately important. (C S Lewis)

That really is complete balls though- and tbf Lewis must have known such, since he’d encountered contradicting religions and knew they were still of importance.

A theory is a well-supported, but falsifiable, body of interconnected statements that has explanatory and predictive power.

True

For instance, gravity has observable “how” effects although there is great divergence in current, eminent, scholarly opinion when it comes to explaining gravity’s “whys”.

ish bit not that relevant

Evolution, does not fit this definition because it is assumed prior to the research being conducted

Prior to what research Not prior to Darwin. One may as well assume that physicists or chemists assume things – periodic table for example prior to research.

and because it assumes many one-time events that can neither be tested nor verified (nor have eye-witness confirmation).

What the random bits of it?

Evolutionists fit all evidence into the framework of evolutionary naturalism (the belief that there are no supernatural causes).

As do all scientists – with perhaps the exception of “scientists” who study supernatural phenomena- this is not just a facet of evolution – Chemistry does not assume supernatural causes for say fire or anything else.

As a corollary to this, evolution cannot be used to make predictions because all results are filtered through the prior belief in evolution.

What you talking about now.
It can predict that genes transmit information to the offspring and predict what diseases you can inherit. You can test this if you want. It can look at plant genes and predict the % of off spring that will be tall. It can predict and it is falsifiable if they prediction dont work for example.

Evolution is better referred to as a tenet of naturalistic philosophy or humanism (a belief system).

Chuckles – is this from a very intelligent version of watchtower?. Its not its a fact based explanation of what we observe with divergent evidence from a multitude of scientific disciplines. Its data based as shown by the reaction when Darwin said we were monkeys [ and not gods image]

Most evolutionists presuppose a worldview that demands the removal of any supernatural agents acting in a knowable way (e.g., miracles, special creation).

Again all science does this every last bit of itfor obvious reasons

Every time we dont know the answer we would say miracle or supernatural – would these explanations then be predictive and testable – LOL I am not sue if you are being serious tbh. You seem knowledgable but its all smoke and mirrors

Calling it a theory and/or fact is a disingenuous attempt to hide the underlying beliefs and to discourage debate by ridiculing those who disagree.

Its not if you want to propose an alternative feel free
if your alternative has no evidence to support it beyond a book and the facts within that book being wrong – age of earth, geocentric universe etc then it is likely folk will mock your view.

QED “Creationist religious nutjob”

If the cap fits – its coarse language for sure but they certainly are at the fringes of reasonable explanation for how we got here.

not to mention billions of years out on the age 😉

Comparing evolution with creationism is like comparing modern chemistry with the 4 elements of earth, wind, water and fire. It was a guess made thousands of years ago that is clearly wrong.

Quick Q’s:

Has anyone had an epihany and become either a Christian or not a Christian as a result of this thread?

Have any Christians become more or less convinced about the literal truth of the Bible?

Have any non Christians decided that state funded religious education is actually a jolly good thing?

It has been answered as definitively as any thread on 29 ers v 26 ers

It has been answered as definitively as any thread on 29 ers v 26 ers

Thing is, I’ve got both of those and they’re both good, but different…

I quite enjoy the debate and it’s generally, stayed on topic and without too much mud slinging. I’ve quite enjoyed it 🙂

“the totality of things was always such as it is now, and always will be”.

Do you really have no idea what science would have to do with working out whether creationism is true or has merit

Er, that’s not what we’re discussing, is it?

I have conducted experiments which provide very strong evidence for the presence of negatively charged sub atomic particles.

Me too, and I also understand the wavelength stuff. However I suspect Woppit hasn’t. Re colour, light doesn’t reflect off electrons like it does with most things that have colour etc etc but whatever, it was an illustrative point aimed at countering Woppit’s and making him feel a bit silly for not thinking carefully enough about his argument. Which I think it did 😉

The thing is, you are satisfied that your experiments provided enough evidence for the existence of electrons. People who believe in God see evidence of God’s love all around them, and they are satisfied that that evidence is of sufficient quality. Either that or they don’t care and just like believing in God.

It can predict that genes transmit information to the offspring and predict what diseases you can inherit.

That’s genetics, not evolution.

but it certainly looks and sounds (from what I’ve read and seen/heard) to be a great deal more solid than “god did it”

Hehehe… nice lol there 🙂

Has anyone had an epihany and become either a Christian or not a Christian as a result of this thread?

You would have more chance of one of the Armstrong fanbois coming out and saying he cheated ……….. 🙂

Creationism, religion – pure makebelieve!

Focus on proving/disproving stuff. Accept nothing until it is proven, but by all means theorise, because that is the first step in discovery.

Blind faith in concepts is ridiculous because you never even bother to search for answers: This is lazy, but also convenient if the imagined concept meets your end.

I’ve not heard anything from Phil Liggett recently.

Is he on the road to Damascus?

Has anyone had an epihany and become either a Christian or not a Christian as a result of this thread?

…or the HIFI haterz declaring that mains cables make a difference to the sound.

That’s genetics, not evolution.

yes but how many times do you need to do it before it becomes evolution 😉

Its a good point tbh Molly you are right.

Yes.. genetics.. looking for all those diseases God put there to bring pain, suffering and despair to people and they can’t do anything about it.

Quick Q’s:
Has anyone had an epihany and become either a Christian or not a Christian as a result of this thread?
Have any Christians become more or less convinced about the literal truth of the Bible?
Have any non Christians decided that state funded religious education is actually a jolly good thing?

Not quite. I used to attend church fairly regularly, but just because my wife and kids did. I thought Anglican Christianity was fairly benign. Religion threads on here were part of what changed my mind on this and provided a good grounding in the arguments for and against religion.

Quick Q’s:
Has anyone had an epihany and become either a Christian or not a Christian as a result of this thread?
Have any Christians become more or less convinced about the literal truth of the Bible?
Have any non Christians decided that state funded religious education is actually a jolly good thing?

No, but I’ve changed my mind about alloy frames, whisky, rucksacks on road rides, biblongs and smoking.

I tried old fashioned razors. And became a less shouty atheist as I realised how painful I must have sounded after reading STW’s shoutiest atheists’ posts on religion threads.

And became a less shouty atheist as I realised how painful I must have sounded when reading STW’s shoutiest atheists’ posts on religion threads.

Still working on that 😐
Trying though.

Only very recently stopped getting wound up by others on t’internet after an enlightening e-mail exchange. Which was nice.

Ten pages on religion that remained pretty civil. Well done, everyone.

wwaswas – Member
Has anyone had an epihany and become either a Christian or not a Christian as a result of this thread?

A good question but IMO the wrong question altogether since it mis-understands the basic raison-d’etre or rationale for faith. From a scientific and philosophical perspective, most of the traditional arguments for the existence of God have been proven (largely/totally) ineffective. But for “fideists” ie, those who elevate faith above reason, that is simply not an issue since they hold faith as an alternative path to the truth. As such, science, philosophy and religion cannot agree since they share no/little common ground in the first place. Furthermore, some religious people will make a virtue (the RC church in its catechisms for example – Faith, Hope and Charity) of the very fact that religious belief cannot be adequately defended on rational grounds. For them, the act of will that is necessary on the part of the believer adds moral merit to the acquisition of faith that is central to their religion(s).

Of course, these strengths are the exact weaknesses that scientists and philosophers point to – hence the good question becomes the wrong one IMO. There is and never will be/can be common ground for each party to share. Once we get this, we can all live in harmony together!!

Aye nice summary Mike

see you early march for the next one 😉

Excellent summary THM

For me its the fact they still have an exalted place in society and education that makes me moan so much

They can have as much faith as they like as long as they leave me alone.

JY – which is essentially the argument put forward by the guy from The Independent on Question Time recently. Much of the aggro would dissapear with the dis-establishment of the church. However, I seriously doubt this will happen in the near or medium term.

pretty civil

Seemed a bit shouty at times but I think you all deserve a pat on the back.

@Rusty, Fred hasn’t been emailing you has he?

Believe all the Bible or non of it, however, reading it and being shown how what was written related to the time when it was written and by whom – also the interpretation of the original Hebrew you sometimes get a much clearer message.

One thing’s for sure – believe in God then believe in the Devil also (often very absent during Christian bashing debates – I wonder why?) 🙂

Focus on proving/disproving stuff. Accept nothing until it is proven, but by all means theorise, because that is the first step in discovery.

Blind faith in concepts is ridiculous because you never even bother to search for answers: This is lazy, but also convenient if the imagined concept meets your end.

What, like overpopulation?

If you worship the devil you are just as wrong but probably more in need of sectioning

HTH

@Rusty, Fred hasn’t been emailing you has he?

No DD.

Always got on quite well with him tbh.
Get the odd mysterious picture of Ben Kenobi, but not heard from him in ages.

One thing’s for sure – believe in God then believe in the Devil also (often very absent during Christian bashing debates – I wonder why?)

Go on, tell us why.

If you worship the devil you are just as wrong but probably more in need of sectioning

HTH

They’re not devil worshipers….but I reckon Misotheists might need sectioning…imagine the kind of mind that really really believes in god but hates him.

“The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn’t exist.”

Hmmn, that always sounds like a good line, but logically, it’s nonsense.
Non believers are happy that he’s equally as imaginary as god himself.

to believe in the devil you need to believe in god
Therefore it stands to reason he only tricked gods children, I find this odd as it is not like they are gullible 😉

If God and the Devil were imaginary when you died then that would be it – nothing…but what if that wasn’t the case…?

tyger – Member

If God and the Devil were imaginary when you died then that would be it – nothing.

Well, only for the individual.
Everything else will cary on quite satisfactorily, I’m sure.

Liberating isn’t it?

but what if that wasn’t the case…?

Maybe it isn’t.
I’m willing to be proved otherwise.
But, as we keep saying, in the whole of human existance there hasn’t been one, single, solitary piece of evidence in an afterlife.

If God and the Devil were imaginary when you died then that would be it – nothing…but what if that wasn’t the case

and how foolish will you feel if it is true ?
Not sure as i have not been baptised perhaps you can tell me what the all loving benign god does to me?
Is it like the naughty step for a bit till I say sorry and realise how foolish i have been or is it something like eternal damnation in a firey pit….I mean what parent would not treat a child like this ?

bwaarp – Member

imagine the kind of mind that really really believes in god but hates him.

Honestly? Seems a perfectly sane response to the whole omnipotent god concept. If you can’t disbelieve, then the next logical step is to be horrified, no?

in the whole of human existance there hasn’t been one, single, solitary piece of evidence in an afterlife.

Not so.
I worked with a woman who went to see a spiritualist who told her she had been a gypsy in a previous life and had travelling in her blood.The conclusive evidence of the truth of this was that she had a picture of a gypsy in her living room and she liked going on cruises.Who can argue with that?
I had wondered why everyone called her Mad Judy
Mad as box of frogs.

If God and the Devil were imaginary when you died then that would be it – nothing…but what if that wasn’t the case…?

if he’s an Abrahamic god then gods a dick and I’ll take my punishment in hell with a “**** you” to both god and the devil.

Molgrips – I’m not sure if you are trolling or genuinely trying to suggest that the comparison for evidence between electrons and a God is a sensible comparison.

From what I’ve read before molgrips likes to play devil’s* advocate on religious threads, not sure if he thinks the religious are outnumbered on STW and they need a bit if help or he just likes a good debate.

Fairly civil >10 page religion thread, is STW getting more civil in its old age? Was fun anyway.

*but no he doesn’t exist either

Quick Q’s:

Has anyone had an epihany and become either a Christian or not a Christian as a result of this thread?

Have any Christians become more or less convinced about the literal truth of the Bible?

Have any non Christians decided that state funded religious education is actually a jolly good thing?
I’m a Pantheistic Humanist, I can’t say I’m bothered one way or another, but I’m being royally entertained by all this. 😀

Is your spiritual home right here on earth?