I’d think about charging a refundable design fee taken off the final bill as a sort of qualifier that the potential customer is committed.

I have to admit I fall into the “how *** much I’ll do it myself category” I know its bad but prices I am consistently quoted by all sorts of trades is way way more than my day rate so I end up doing it myself.

Example – we moved in and the banisters had been removed from our 1930’s house. With 2 toddlers this needed sorting, and we thought, something nice in oak and get the flooring done at the same time. This is a small hall, with about 12 bannisters. National firm quoted £11k, local fitter guy quoted £7k + mats both said total rip out and replace with new was required even though I wanted to be sympathetic to the original remaining woodwork. I’d thought about £2k was a sensible number (1k ish mats and a weeks work). Shows how far wrong I was….

@DT78, did you do the work yourself in the end? If not, what did it cost? What was the materials cost / timescale vs your original estimate?

We’ve just had the hallway plastered and I’ve repained it myself, but I’m planning to get a chap in to paint the woodwork. It’ll cost but he’ll be a better job than me (I’d bloody hope so anyway) and will take less time than I would

Bit of a sweeping statement ^^^ about roofers and scaffolders.
I don’t have the skills set to work with my hands but definitely have an appreciation for bespoke v mass-produced.
Would anyone go to a bespoke tailor saying ‘I can get a suit from M&S for £200; match the price and you’ve got the order’?
Kayak – could you produce a check-list of what goes into your work to help potential clients understand what goes into your costs?
Possibly use photos from earlier commissions – here’s the empty space, the commission instructions, raw materials, the piece at various work-in-progress stages, finished article – to build an understanding of complexity and quality.
Do you ever ask for stage payments?
At £30/hr I would say you are under-charging.

I would consider charging a design fee, can be refundable if they purchase from you (build it into the cost of the job if refundable, or keep it as an itemized cost).

Also consider having a minimum charge for a commission, eg side table £500, table £1000, bed £2000 (no idea on actual pricing). You can then quickly drop that into conversation to check you and the customer are on the same track and not waste time.

Niche/specialist work you dont want every customer, just the ones that are willing to pay for your time.

You will need to market yourself accordingly (and have the skills to back it up).

I didnt see pension on that calculator?

Hiya,

I ended up doing myself – replacing banisters and some of the missing surrounding woodwork was about £500 (including buying a mitresaw). It took me 2 days, plus another day of sanding and painting base coat. That’s as far as I got as wifey still hasn’t decided the colours of the originally black handrail (would have been easy if it had been replaced with a new oak thing). I can see why they didn’t want to work with the original woodwork as it was not straight / slightly twisted, but it really wasn’t hard, it just meant everything had to be measured individually and fit by eye relative to the original timbers. This might sound crap but brand new dead straight stuff in an old wonky house would have probably stood out. I wanted it to blend.

Floor is still the same black painted oak strip rather than refreshed. The prices were so huge they put me off any further engagement with trade on most jobs and set me along a path of buying a lot of tools and watching a lot of youtube!

I’ve done pretty well, I find most of my time is spent worrying about getting started, once I crack on I do a pretty decent job (I’m quite critical)

Currently reboarding and insultating the loft, next job will be a fireplace surround and custom alcove shelving and cupboards. Got to fit that in before xmas. Not even bothered asking trades as pricing is likely to be more than I can afford for something that is really quite easy to do

Other experience with trades, is even getting them to turn up….then again maybe I’m on a blacklist somewhere now.

Things I will pay for in the future – plastering I’ve had a crack, it takes me a long time sanding to get it perfect and frankly they are probably worth the premium

was often going out in the evenings after a full days work and measuring customers homes. Giving out estimates, tweeking their needs and then, surprise, surprise, you get ‘Ooh I didn’t want to spend that much’ or, hear nothing at all.

So, the thing you need to improve on isn’t curtain making, it’s identifying customers and very quickly/effortlessly coming up with an estimated cost. Your experience of previous work should allow you to get better at this.

Some public and a few main contractors can be absolute tossers, trades do get a hard time often slagged off but may not have been paid and there may not be much they can do although most scaffolders seem to have dodgy contacts and usually get paid

I’ve now developed an instinct for knowing which people are serious, and fully appreciate the work that goes into producing bespoke pieces, and those timewasters who want the moon on a stick but want to pay twenty quid for it.

I’ve done quite a lot of stuff for people on here and, unsurprisingly, they’ve all been the former 😃

Scotroutes – thanks. Yes the problem with a lot of skilled crafts people, is that they aren’t good at all the stuff that surrounds having a business.

I only go out measuring now when customers are recommended, regulars or sound genuine.

Just had a look at your site Bunnyhop, lovely stuff, particularly the banister.

I think a lot of the problem is that most people have never done any work with their hands and don’t have the slightest clue about the effort and expertise it involves.

Just had a look at your site Bunnyhop, lovely stuff, particularly the banister.

You should see kayak23’s curtains!! 😀

The problem with any trade is the average non tradesman can go to b and q and get a leaflet and all the materials to do the job…….they see no reason to employ a time served person with the correct experience skills tools and insurances. If they do employ one they moan at the cost because in their head as an employee every penny they give you goes into your pocket, tools, van, premises etc etc are all free issue and you don’t pay tax either. Another issue is the British attitude of always wanting a deal or something cheap, everyone is to blame for this tbh.
It’s a massive reason none of my businesses have ever worked the domestic market as there is no idea of what it costs to run a business and try and make money.

All you craftspeople might want to look at how much nurses get paid, and consider…

All you craftspeople might want to look at how much nurses get paid, and consider…

WTF?

What are you struggling with love?

All you craftspeople might want to look at how much nurses get paid, and consider…

…a career in nursing?

….yourself at home?

…Phlebas?

Are you implying that craftspeople shouldn’t be paid more than nurses?

The last time I booked a nurse to fit a cupboard is was a disaster, it was entirely constructed from triangular bandages.

this is a big issue when you deal with the general public, they are often salaried and have no idea what it costs to run a business, they also often don’t realise the difference between being ‘freelance’ and running business either.

Many of them think that everyone but them should work for a pittance.

Maybe Crikey’s considering the low national Insurance payments that the self employed make.

I’ll get my jacket…have fun!

Buggy whip makers – skilled craftsmen grossly undervalued.

I have a skill. It’s very rare, and took tens of thousands of hours of study and practice to acquire. You can only buy it from a few suppliers who’s hourly rate would make solicitors and barristers look cheap. I’m currently employed by a company that want to keep that skill in-house.

Is intrigued! Things that spring to mind, bookbinder, calligrapher, gemstone cutter, horologist/watchmaker…?

My thoughts are that it’s a societal thing. As mentioned earlier, manual work has been deemed blue collar and in the British society particularly, of less value than the white collar workers.

I trained, many years ago now, as a wooden boatbuilder, which in itself includes a multi disciplined set of skills for most materials, metal, resins and wood. Try earning a living as a wooden boatbuilder! I stopped that 30years ago. I had more financial success with oak framing, doing it the old school hand scribed and cut method but again, people wanted cheaper than was possible and the machine cut frames can be produced quicker and cheaper and skills and more importantly experience, are lost.

If I were to measure the external validation I’ve received for my professional work in a monetary value, I have been most successful during my time in corporate world! Producing nothing of substance in the same way as a tangible product, just a subjective measurement.

What I find particularly disturbing is the low value our society places on those who provide social care to the members of our communities who are less or unable to have a measure of independence and/or autonomy. And yet, we are more than willing to accept the overpaid vacuous celebrity and hedge fund manager, who to all intents, produce nothing of any substance or benefit to anyone but themselves.

Great thread @kayak and everyone, cheers 😁

The part of this that really annoys me is the public ( and I have seen it on here) forgetting the hidden costs

If you are self employed you are doing well if 60% of your work is chargeable hours. so that plumber charging you £200 a day what you forget is there is at least another half day he has worked that he cannot charge for. time spent doing estimates, doing admin, doing tax returns, getting the stuff for your job, travelling to and from your job etc etc

Crikey said – All you craftspeople might want to look at how much nurses get paid, and consider…

Not sure I follow sorry Crikey. Are you comparing self-employed people wanting to charge £30 per hour upwards to the per hour wages of nurses?

Wondering if so, you may be doing a bit of the below.

I imagine there is also something in the understanding of the per hour rate charged vs the per hour rate received as pay. Your hypothetical masseuse is charging 60 per hour, I guess many would reason “I’m not being payed 60 per hour they can jog on they must be raking it in”. As a not self employed person have no idea how much per hour my employer charges for my time.

As I say, if you watch the video I posted in the op, he explains it quite well. If you are charging under £30 an hour self-employed, then after you cover business costs, your actual wages are likely to be below what someone might hope to earn working in McDonalds (his example).

How we value nurses is of course another thing that deserves it’s own thread I’m sure. I just find the way that we attach value to certain professions over others kind of weird, and this could include nursing too obviously. I’m not a nurse though so can only speak as a craftsperson.

This thread is timely given the discussion that my partner and I have been having around starting up a business and doing that part time, well, for a few years at least and then going full time.

Both of us do have a broad range of skills for carpentry and interior design work (hers are better than mine though and very much more centered around the more traditional Swedish styles) and doing that for other people when we have finished the house would be something both of us would enjoy. The problem is making the move from part-time work in holidays, to full time work that will not see us starve. It is a big leap to make.

The other aspect is that you are paying for the skills to do the job quickly and well. As a broad brush the amateur can do one ie quickly or well. the pro can do both

I speak from experience having refurbed 3 houses completely a mix of diy and paying pros.

So costing my time at £15 an hour and the pro at £30. If it takes me 3 times as long the pro is cheaper!

Some stuff I simply cannot do as well. tiling and finishing carpentry being the two main ones

Ah yes holidays. As a self employed person, one doesn’t get a holiday (as in time paid for to take off work).

When I was setting up my business many years ago as a young person with no commitments, it was 2.5 years of solid working, mostly 6 days a week to get set up properly before I could have a holiday.

I’ve found that crafts people help each other out. One example is the day Binners did some artwork for me free of charge, so I could have business cards printed. I as a self employed person know how much time he would have put into doing that for me. What a kind generous thing to do.
I in turn have done things for people who have needed the help and am always ready to offer free advice (sometimes ending up with losing a job).
As for nursing, yes I completely agree they are hard working and underpaid.

While I have a ton of sympathy for you self-employed craftspeople, you should try having a non-practical craft like writing. Everyone can write so how hard can that really be, eh?

I’m so glad to be back in full-time employment now, rather than freelancing.

Seem to be having fewer holidays now though, strangely.

Ah yes holidays. As a self employed person, one doesn’t get a holiday (as in time paid for to take off work).

Strange my sister in law is self employed and only yesterday my wife (technically self-employed but reality is a bit different) was saying how much holiday she factored into her year, more than my wife and I.

I wasn’t making any statement; when people talk about income I automatically compare my wage and think about the responsibility and accountability I have.

I’m not suggesting anything about it and I’m not attempting any comparison, i find it interesting to consider…

What I find particularly disturbing is the low value our society places on those who provide social care to the members of our communities who are less or unable to have a measure of independence and/or autonomy. And yet, we are more than willing to accept the overpaid vacuous celebrity and hedge fund manager, who to all intents, produce nothing of any substance or benefit to anyone but themselves.

The rise of “Bullshit” jobs…

https://www.economist.com/open-future/2018/06/29/bullshit-jobs-and-the-yoke-of-managerial-feudalism

Just a thing on the pro vs amateur.

10,000 hrs. Or, about 5 full working years.

That’s how long it takes to become expert in something. Not just doing it, but actively trying to learn how to get better. From what I’ve read it doesn’t matter too much if it is a manual craft, sport, people skill, or technical, or whatever.

That’s what you pay for in a pro.

Wheras if I do something DIY at home, I’m pretty much a rank beginner at every single task. I’ll take ages. I’ll make mistakes and have to undo stuff and do it again. And a pro won’t.

Try earning a living as a wooden boatbuilder! I stopped that 30years ago.

My dad stopped that when he was about 25 and he’s now 85.

However based on that experience he ended up looking after customer estimates & quotes for yacht repairs at a larger established boatyard, for the bulk of his working life. Including the royal yacht a few times. So maybe it wasn’t all bad.

edited to sound less self important

I don’t doubt a pro will do work faster and hopefully to a better standard. There are however a good bunch of cowboys passing them off as pros which muddies the water a good amount.

Also challenging (aka ‘art-like’) crafts deserve a premium over the DIY’er comparing to the rate they take home (that’s the one after deductions, such as driving to work, tax, answering your bosses calls at weekends etc… remember PAYE have those too)

Fitting a tap, wiring a plug, building a shelf in an alcove do not need many thousands of hours of expertise to do well…

Also true one should think in hourly rates rather than day rates which I typically default too. When I work for myself my day is significantly longer than when I have a trade in.

Only tradesperson I know reasonably well is a self employed builder (unfortunately not local to me), and he is quite open about the huge amount of money he is earning (big cars, big house, land etc..) and how he is generally finished early afternoon most days. If I was to be made redundant I’d seriously think about going and working for him

Fitting a tap,

No. But being a plumber does.

Being a decorator it is very interesting listening to the public (and even other building trades) telling you that basically you’re unskilled and they could do it themselves. Apart from the fact that it’s a bit condescending it’s blatantly not true for a majority of people. Some of the stuff I have to put right is properly eye opening. I know most people can pick up a paint brush as much as I can pick up some push fit plumbing but it all boils down to how good you want the finish to be. What makes me laugh is listening to clients on conference calls who seem to make a very good living talking absolute bs. There are good, well priced, trustworthy trades people and there are complete rip off merchants. The skill is finding the right ones.

Very true chopper, I tried being a chippy and decorator working with my dad at 17 or 18.

I learned enough to know that it’s 95pc preparation – which the customer doesn’t really see – and that I just don’t have the eye for detail required.

Surely the folk who can afford bespoke, hand made furniture do appreciate what’s gone into making it, otherwise you’d have no customers. The rest of us, who aren’t customers, don’t think Ikea shit is just as good, we simply can’t afford the quality stuff.

Example – we moved in and the banisters had been removed from our 1930’s house. With 2 toddlers this needed sorting, and we thought, something nice in oak and get the flooring done at the same time. This is a small hall, with about 12 bannisters. National firm quoted £11k, local fitter guy quoted £7k + mats both said total rip out and replace with new was required even though I wanted to be sympathetic to the original remaining woodwork. I’d thought about £2k was a sensible number (1k ish mats and a weeks work). Shows how far wrong I was….

As soon as they said rip out the old and put new in I would have shown them the door. A professional would have appreciated the need to keep what was original and worked round it accordingly.

I’m doing almost the same job myself as our original stair bannisters and spindles has been ripped out and the newel posts cut down.

Costed up parts circa £500 using solid oak bannisters. £800 if I buy a table saw too! Maybe a bit more for some extra materials to practice on.

I wasnt saying (good) tradespeople aren’t skilled. I’m saying they are expensive when you compare their rate of what I earn. for jobs I can do myself.

it comes down to how much tkme you have vs money. in my opinion the thing most trades have over a good diyer is knowledge and experience that speeds up a job.

swedish metal get some cheap spindles in pine it’s not hard at all. I kind of wish I’d used the job as an excuse to buy a nailer for all the trim work.

problem with doing work yourself is I find myself in pubs / hotels / mates houses comparing the work. I wouldn’t be happy with most finishes I see.

I’d love to have oddles of cash to pay for protrades but I don’t so stuck DIY.