Did anyone else shout at the TV during last night’s article on wildlife crime? The BBC chap was talking to an RSPB spokesman about the shooting of birds of prey on the Yorkshire Moors. No mention was made of gamekeepers or grouse/pheasant shoots. I can’t believe that the RSPB spokesman wouldn’t have mentioned that the aforementioned gamekeepers are far and away the biggest culprits. Which would mean that the BBC may have edited it out for fear of offending the offenders. I have written to the BBC to ask. ….. ‘yours etc, Angry of Brampton”

Country file is farmer and landowner propaganda.

Mostly, but not always.

A friend of mine was the Chief Inspector, ex-head of NWCU, now charity worker interviewed.

I can’t believe that the RSPB spokesman wouldn’t have mentioned that the aforementioned gamekeepers are far and away the biggest culprits. Which would mean that the BBC may have edited it out for fear of offending the offenders

I’m going to take a wild guess that it’s something to do with libel laws, or the need to produce evidence to meet the legally required standard.

And of course not generalising about those pesky illegal gamekeepers…

It’s a fine line – we know that for every ‘bad’ gamekeeper, there’s another good few doing what they believe is the right thing and complying with they law. As we discussed on the main thread, somehow we’ve got to work together, support livelihoods and perhaps imagine what the future looks like.

Grouse moor licencing, Scotland.

Don’t the shoots come with permission to keep the species from overpopulating?

Or have I been watching too much countryfile!?

Don’t the shoots come with permission to keep the species from overpopulating?

Is that the endangered ones or the massively over populated ones they introduce to shoot?

It’s a fine line – we know that for every ‘bad’ gamekeeper, there’s another good few doing what they believe is the right thing and complying with they law

No we really dont know that.
We do know that the various representative bodies for gamekeepers tend towards protecting those bad gamekeepers.
Which leads me to wonder why all those good gamekeepers put up with it.

Which leads me to wonder why all those good gamekeepers put up with it.

Cultural and economic reasons.
Don’t upset your employer or thier customers, don’t interrupt the work and income stream lined up, and it’s hard to speak something different when *everyone* you have met in your industry, your predecessors and more says one thing.

IME they’re a combination of the very practical and the ingrained traditions of a community.

Yes, that’s exactylw what I said to Mrs NBT

“You know why they’ve succesfully prosecuted 90% of hare coursing arrests but pitifully few bird-of-prey killings? Poor people go hare coursing, rich people ‘need‘ the hawks killed so they can go grouse shooting”

The RSPB man is hardly like to slag of his charities Patron which was the Queen and is now whoever got given it. Bad form when the head honcho loves shooting wildlife and birds

As we discussed on the main thread, somehow we’ve got to work together, support livelihoods and perhaps imagine what the future looks like.

At risk of refighting the grouse moor licensing thread, how many livelihoods does driven grouse shooting support compared with other uses of the land (including ecotourism), and do these offset the environmental harms including downstream flooding due to increased rainwater runoff?

Somehow I don’t think the future has driven grouse shooting in it, especially if there is a big push to ‘re-bog’ moorland for CO2 storage.

Years ago we went on a organised trip with a company that did wildlife tours in Deeside. The person showing us round said that he had been instrumental in prosecuting a gamekeeper for killing raptor chicks in the nest. He also said he was effectivley ostracised by the local community. Maybe this is why the “good gamekeepers” put up with it. Its hard to stand up and be counted where the shooting estate controls a lot of local employment.

I wonder how many good ones there are? I was talking to an ex gamekeeper (his dad had been one, too) a while back (we were both hoping to spot a hen harrier at the Geltsdale RSPB reserve) and he said he’d left the ‘industry’ because of the pressure to kill predators and that it was getting worse. He also said that he didn’t know of any gamekeepers who didn’t do it, albeit in a relatively small area (Northern North Pennines).

and it’s hard to speak something different when *everyone* you have met in your industry,

Which doesnt really add up with your claim of most being good really.
Plus if criminality is so deeply ingrained then seems like it would be time to shut down the industry.

The problem is that a lot of the the estates are owned by people with a lot of influence. Balmoral for example. A lot of the estates have been financed by subsidies from the farming sector.
I don’t think there is any sort of will from a Tory uk government to tackle any of these issues.
It might be a good time too look at letting the local communities look after the land rather than a bunch of rich people who get pleasure from killing animals.

But equally some of the land is owned by e.g. Yorkshire Water and sublet.

Some of those landowners are starting to get a bit uneasy about driven shooting on their land.

I’m going to take a wild guess that it’s something to do with libel laws, or the need to produce evidence to meet the legally required standard.

This. The presence of a dead raptor full of shot on a particular estate doesn’t tell you which gamekeeper did it, or even necessarily that it was shot on the estate. If you even imply that a worker on that estate may be involved, all of them could collectively sue you because you’re effectively pointing the finger at every single one.

In the real world we know there is a limited pool of potential suspects for the shooting of a raptor on a bit of moorland far from the road.

The only way to fix it is to ban driven grouse shooting.

The only way to fix it is to ban driven grouse shooting.

This. & retrain the people employed, in land management/rewilding. Then no one can moan about lost jobs.

But rich rural (and wannabe rural) folk love killing stuff? Can’t posh people catch a break in this modern woke world?

At risk of refighting the grouse moor licensing thread, how many livelihoods does driven grouse shooting support compared with other uses of the land (including ecotourism), and do these offset the environmental harms including downstream flooding due to increased rainwater runoff?

*Apparently* (and I need to go re-find the study on Nature Scot’s new website) they employ around the same and would enjoy a similar level of income. The issue I have been told a few times is the transition from one to another – there is a huge (few decades / generation) ‘gap’ where you cannot earn income as it is currently, but the tourism and alternative crops / products really kick in. There is also the issue that many on the conservation / wilding side want to reduce all human access and intervention – not really compatible with earning a living…. There must be middle ground here.

and +1 on some very influential and rich people keeping the status quo – from Queen/King down.

It will be interesting to see what Charlie boy now does with Balmoral… Re-wild ahoy? Or a brace on the 12th still?

Which leads me to wonder why all those good gamekeepers put up with it

… person showing us round said that he had been instrumental in prosecuting a gamekeeper for killing raptor chicks in the nest. He also said he was effectively ostracised by the local community…

AGAB