In this case theyve judged that the majority of society want a benefits system that doesn’t leave low income earners wondering why they bother going to work.

brilliant so they have increased the minimum wage, set in place a strategy to redistribute wealth and instigated a programme of fairness the likes of which we have never seen

ah no the Condems have the poorest with a big shitty stick.
Its agenda setting…We pay taxes to people via working tax credit so large billion pound employers like Mc Donalds for example can pay the minimum wage to maximise their profits not because McD would fold if it paid a living wage.

^That

I speak from a position of once trying to stop tax credits because we didn’t need them. HMRC had no mechanism to stop the payments – they suggested we give to charity. A reasonable solution but really? You can’t stop sending us money? really? ‘Yes sir, there is no option on my screen to do that.’

Eh? Did you also pay more tax than required too? 🙄

If you are so bloody minded you could’ve not actually applied for them.

Bang on Junkyard!

How we all subsidise Tesco

But don’t forget… they’re upping the ante now. As a benefit claimant you now to get to do a full time job for poundland without pay.

Give Dave another 6 months and he’ll be re-exploring the ‘opportunies’ offered by the Workhouse

In this case theyve judged that the majority of society want a benefits system that doesn’t leave low income earners wondering why they bother going to work.

No one is better off on benefits that working – thats why tax credits have a long taper and can be gained even at relativly high levels of income.

the Condems have (hit) the poorest with a big shitty stick

And here’s me thinking that the average wage didn’t equate to poverty. My mistake. Do we go straight from poor to rich once we cross the £35000 taxed wage that the proposed cap corresponds to?

so you think people on benefits are not amongst the poorest in our society?
Good news dave and george are making it a piece of piss to join this rich elite section of society

Do we go straight from poor to rich once we cross the £35000 taxed wage that the proposed cap corresponds to?

Seems so, based on a previous CB post. TJ and others decided that once a higher rate tax payer you were in the ‘Elite’…

The poorest in our society are probably on benefits. That’s not the point. Is someone receiving the equivalent of a taxed wage of £35000 poor? I suspect that makes the majority of the people posting on here poor.

No one is better off on benefits that working – thats why tax credits have a long taper and can be gained even at relativly high levels of income.

Well depends on how you value your time really. Is it worth working for x extra pounds?

Is someone receiving the equivalent of a taxed wage of £35000 poor

and over £40k is rich elite apparently.

So are benefits recipients going to be expected to doff these caps as well, then?

Rio – Member
The poorest in our society are probably on benefits. That’s not the point. Is someone a household receiving the equivalent of a taxed wage of £35000 poor? I suspect that makes the majority of the people posting on here poor.

FTFY

The poorest in our society are probably on benefits. That’s not the point.

It is it the entire point.
If you remove the rent costs which they dont actually see a penny of.
It would be interesting to see what the average income was qith the housing costs removed and I would expect it is much nearer/ probably less than 10k per annum
We could save more by closing ta avoidance loops, ensuring large corporation pay their tax , Hitting philip green with a proper tax bill than what this will achieve. it is not about saving money as there are more efficient ways its about politics wrapped up as saving

Well depends on how you value your time really. Is it worth working for x extra pounds?

This is where I agree with the Mail-readers.

Even if you’re a few quid better off, it’s a good thing. You have a sense of self-esteem, the chance to progress in the company, the opportunity to earn bonuses/do overtime etc….and you’re not stagnating.

In this sort of situation, I don’t think the benefit claimant really should be given the choice of whether they think it’s worth their time to do a particular job. If they can come up with something better, so-one’s stopping them, but if there’s a viable job, they should take it.

I’ve had appalling jobs in the past, and hated them, but I’ve always found it much easier to get a job once in work.

If you remove the rent costs which they dont actually see a penny of.

So, if you have earned household income of £35000 and have to pay your own accommodation like most people you’re not poor, but if you have the equivalent in benefits but have to pay for your housing out of that you are poor? How does that work then?

You have a sense of self-esteem, the chance to progress in the company, the opportunity to earn bonuses/do overtime etc….and you’re not stagnating

Most minimum wage jobs have no career progression whatsoever. You are stagnating just in work

IMHO the work gives you self esteem nonsense is the greatest trick they ever pulled on is

Of course the masters need us to work hard like good little proles FFS they are not going to do actual work themselves are they, they are going to enjoy the fruits of your labour as that how they make their money, from your work and paying you Fa ll to do it..yours Marx

I never said everyone in work was rich did i?

However, I could earn 2 million and buy a very expensive house with astronomical running costs and still be poor in the way you work it out.
It is not a black and white issue here an there are many shades of grey in working out as my example[ and yours to some degree] show.
Simplistic statements wont help her and it is not hard to create exemplars to attempt to disprove alternatives views

Those on benefits are poor, this will punish children, Ghettoise the poor and is a knee jerk reaction as those of us in work dont want to feel like those out of work are better of than us.
again you may find the odd exception ia working pop of 30 + million but as a general rule they [ unemployed folk] will be worse of than 99% + of the working population.

basic benefits are in the region of £105 per week for a couple and £60 a week per child excluding most housing costs.

I don’t think the benefit claimant really should be given the choice of whether they think it’s worth their time to do a particular job. If they can come up with something better, so-one’s stopping them, but if there’s a viable job, they should take it.

3 million unemployed and more than that workless. there simply are not the jobs for them

Yes, I’d love £26k a year. Currently on £15k which isn’t really enough for me to comfortably move away from home.

_tom_ – Member
Yes, I’d love £26k a year. Currently on £15k which isn’t really enough for me to comfortably move away from home.

It’s household. You wouldn’t get £26k. No-one does.

can someone with a P please tag this ‘rabid workers fight for scraps’

thanks

TandemJeremy – Member
I don’t think the benefit claimant really should be given the choice of whether they think it’s worth their time to do a particular job. If they can come up with something better, so-one’s stopping them, but if there’s a viable job, they should take it.
3 million unemployed and more than that workless. there simply are not the jobs for them

Not entirely true, there is an element of not wanting to ‘demean’ themselves with certain types of job.

Not sure if it’s been argued already, but there are folk working here for 15k p.a and getting up in the morning and cycling 8 miles to work every day, we’ve also had folk work here getting benefits as well and witnessing the culture first hand of having kids defined as having various states of mental or educational issues purely to get more benefit.

There does need to be a shake up t the system, it also needs to be noted and I’m surprised it hasn’t actually been mentioned by the fascist right press, but we are actually borrowing that 20 billion to give to folk to do nothing and pretty much all our taxes are doing is funding the interest on the accumulating loan..

So in short, right or wrong and it is a complex issue and not everyone gets the entire 26k, but simply stated we actually cannot afford it as things currently stand, not and pay all these top executives that hand it out and talk about it as much as they do..

Yunki no probs freeloader scum, living off my taxes [ subs]

I just used the ‘Turn2Us’ online benefit checker to see how much I would be eligible for should me and my wife be unemployed (with 3 children).

Result was £23,936 per annum tax free. I could live with that amount quite comfortably.

And that’s excluding other ‘perks’ such as free school meals, school clothing grants etc.

Edit: those calculations were bases on the rental of a small bottom of the market semi @ £400 per month. Of course I could have rented a much larger house and without the proposed cap, the benefit would have increased to accommodate it. Indeed, I could have moved to the wealthiest part of town, all paid for by benefits.

Sorry Junkyard, have to disagree with you. Sure, there are jobs that offer no progression, but there are equally many that do. My father left school at 15 with no qualification, as a face worker in the mines. Made it to mine manager, then university lecturer. Progression is possible – how d’you think the middle-management types get there?

As for self-esteem, I’ve been unemployed. I didn’t claim any benefits, but I felt like s*** when i wasn’t working, and it completely destroyed me mentally. When I got a decent job, I was happy.

This may well be because I’ve been conditioned by The Man to feel that work is good, idleness is not, but it’s good to feel valued, to be able to create things that few others can, and to be part of an organisation that does stuff. Rather harder to see when you’re flipping burgers, I accept, but then most of the McDonalds managers come from the shop floor. I hate the product but have to respect the fact that they do promote from within.

😀

IMHO the work gives you self esteem nonsense is the greatest trick they ever pulled on is

Hmm well some people would rather pay their way and some would rather not. Whilst on my degree I worked stocking shelves in Boots, when I graduated I worked in McDonalds – easiest thing to do as I was going onto a Masters. Many are the same, many would turn their noses up at that.

My father left school at 15 with no qualification, as a face worker in the mines. Made it to mine manager, then university lecturer. Progression is possible

yes your right in a race all can be winners.
Can you tell me about everyone else who worked in the pit and we will look at how they all faired as group rather than focus on the one who achieved the best outcome- part of the myth work hard enough you can escape here look this one did it, it could be you next. It is like arguing we could all win the lottery because someone has[ no disrespect to your dad obviously worked hard etc]

Of course some people break free and work there way up but the vast majority do not.
Socoal mobility is in decline – decreased massively under labour iirc

Mudshark – give up your masters and stack shelfs for the rest of your life and then get back to me on happiness and self esteem- all stidents had poor jobs but they were a stepping stone not a reality 😉

see how much I would be eligible for should me and my wife be unemployed (with 3 children).

You’d be eligible for an allowance which is dependent on you genuinely seeking employment. If you’re not genuinely seeking employment, then either you can give up the JSA (in which case your luxury life on 24 grand a year is going to take a hit) or you can defraud the Buroo (in which case all you’re saying is you could make money through fraud – well, big deal).

I’ve been unemployed. I didn’t claim any benefits

Why not?

We’re all getting a bit het-up about the principle here, but what are the actual figures?

I reckon the tories are doing their usual ‘bash the poor’ while quite happily helping the super-rich avoid their taxes. Like that fool on the ‘Today’ program was on about this morning about excessive executive pay for failure.

You’d be eligible for an allowance which is dependent on you genuinely seeking employment. If you’re not genuinely seeking employment, then either you can give up the JSA (in which case your luxury life on 24 grand a year is going to take a hit) or you can defraud the Buroo (in which case all you’re saying is you could make money through fraud – well, big deal).

£24k for popping down to the job centre once a while with a list of companies I unsuccessfully contacted looking for work… easy money.

I am truly gobsmacked that there are people out there who think this sort of thing doesn’t go on. Then again, as I said elsewhere.. the guardian/independent readers of this world have a seriously clouded view of reality from their safe public funded job.

Of course it’s possible to live on £26k as a family, many working families do exactly that. The benefit system has been abused, it’s time to put it right, this is just the first step. Had Labour done so perhaps they’d still be in government.

£26k after tax is approx £35k before. To have a pension income of £35k you need savings of £900,000 and that is not index linked income either, that’s flat.

Mudshark – give up your masters and stack shelfs for the rest of your life and then get back to me on happiness and self esteem- all stidents had poor jobs but they were a stepping stone not a reality

But they do lead on to things if you have some potential, many people in the past have done unskilled jobs that wouldn’t lead to anything but they still did them; unfortunately there aren’t so many of these jobs about now due to automation or whatever. BTWm McDonalds offers great potential for the under qualified.

I am truly gobsmacked that there are people out there who think this sort of thing doesn’t go on. Then again, as I said elsewhere.. the guardian/independent readers of this world have a seriously clouded view of reality from their safe public funded job.

🙄

£24k for popping down to the job centre once a while with a list of companies I unsuccessfully contacted looking for work… easy money.

I am truly gobsmacked that there are people out there who think this sort of thing doesn’t go on. Then again, as I said elsewhere.. the guardian/independent readers of this world have a seriously clouded view of reality from their safe public funded job.
which includes the staff working in a Job centre [ it has been called Job Center Plus for over 5 years FWIW].
I think you should actually pop into one and see the reality it is not like the fantasy land scenario you describe.
It does go on but two points
1. It is a minority of claimants
2. There are not enough jobs for us to achieve full employment so better to have “happy” unemployed people than unhappy ones

Give it a go if it is as easy as you think

The average claimant has to prove they applied for 30 jobs a week – thats is prove not just say they did. An entire nationally based dept checks to see if you did apply for jobs they match you to and then stop your benefits if you dont etc
I wont bore you with actual facts though
yours person who has actually worked in a job centre

Mudshark we did that up there and even covered Mcd’s – I hope you pay ore attention with your masters 😉

Guys – its housing costs that push this up to £26 000+
The problem here is the lack of council houses as they have all been sold off.

benefits are £105 for a couple and £60 for a child after housing costs. Hardly enough for a life of luxury and contrary to popular belief housing benefit is already capped so you cannot move to the poshest part of town once you loose your job

Anyone who thinks JSA is riches is deluded. £105 for a couple! anyone working will get more that they would on JSA as thats how tax credits work hence the long taper that allows some comfortably off folk to claim them

AdamW – Member
We’re all getting a bit het-up about the principle here, but what are the actual figures?

I reckon the tories are doing their usual ‘bash the poor’ while quite happily helping the super-rich avoid their taxes. Like that fool on the ‘Today’ program was on about this morning about excessive executive pay for failure.

Eyes on RBS boss

Yet Hester isn’t some kind of super-banker. Pay-watchers One Society point out that in 2010, while Hester’s total remuneration went up 71%, the value of his bank rose 33%. And over the past year, RBS’s share price has nearly halved.

TandemJeremy – Member
Guys – its housing costs that push this up to £26 000+
The problem here is the lack of council houses as they have all been sold off.

benefits are £105 for a couple and £60 for a child after housing costs. Hardly enough for a life of luxury and contrary to popular belief housing benefit is already capped so you cannot move to the poshest part of town once you loose your job

Anyone who thinks JSA is riches is deluded. £105 for a couple! anyone working will get more that they would on JSA as thats how tax credits work hence the long taper that allows some comfortably off folk to claim them

Think it’s worth reiterating that housing benefit is paid straight to the landlord.

Why not?

Pride, really. I don’t want to be supported by anyone other than me.

yes your right in a race all can be winners.
Can you tell me about everyone else who worked in the pit and we will look at how they all faired as group rather than focus on the one who achieved the best outcome- part of the myth work hard enough you can escape here look this one did it, it could be you next. It is like arguing we could all win the lottery because someone has[ no disrespect to your dad obviously worked hard etc]

Not everyone can be a winner, patently that’s not possible. But some can, and the only way to do it is to be there. In the case of my father, he decided that he absolutely hated the mines, and studying was the best way out. Same with his other progressions.

People tend to progress to the point of indifference – if they really can’t be bothered to progress further, they’re accepting the trade between responsibility and pay, and they’ll stop where they are. Keep the same grade, stay in the same job. Fair enough If you want to be told what to do, and are happy to live under somone else’s direction

I’m one of those who rejected this. I’m ruthlessly careerist, and was determined to get to the very top of the greasy pole. I’ve had to move jobs every three years (basically, when the company opportunities ran out), exploit every opportunity, do some very unpleasant things (firing people, closing down factories, outsourcing whole divisions … that’s just the start of it) and work 16-hour days on a more-or-less permanent basis. It’s worked for me, but I’ve had to make my own opportunities. And it’s not based on innate talent; there are many people far more technically able in my field; I just have sharp elbows and a huge degree of determination

If you’re very determined, you can achieve more than the average. How much more depends on your abilities and qualifications, how much of your soul you’re prepared to sell, how many hours you’re prepared to do, and how much time you’re prepared to give to your family.

Not everyone can be winners. But being stuck at the bottom on benefits strikes me as the least winning option.