Of course some of it was driven by material price rises and economic factors, but its obvious that opportunism played a part too.

A lot, I think, was driven by or at least enabled by cheap credit.
Yes it existed before 2020, but 0% finance when everything is full price and not a discounted bike or part to be found, got people onto bikes they otherwise wouldn’t buy.

From an LBS and bike industry point of view though, this will have an impact in reducing turnover and profit.

See, I don’t buy into that at all.

Sure, you have your halo models that have gone north at an astonishing rate over the last 20 years but that’s not what the majority or I bet even a significant proportion of cyclists buy.

Stop looking at it through a narrow lense and you’ll see there are plenty of opportunities at the lower end of the market where people just want to replace a car. Yes, there is still a sliding scale but there are plenty of sub-£300 bikes that are good enough for that.

Take Troon, they had 2 bike shops a few years ago, one was your typical lower end shop that has a main brand you probably haven’t heard of (Tiger), sells second hand and does a lot of maintenance (shop and mobile). The other was a boutique type place selling high end Orbea road bikes. Take a guess who is still in business.

Honda didn’t go out of business when they stopped making the NSX and neither did their dealers.

See, I don’t buy into that at all.

Sure, you have your halo models that have gone north at an astonishing rate over the last 20 years but that’s not what the majority or I bet even a significant proportion of cyclists buy.

Halo products are where all the margin is. Entry level products are sold close to cost.

There’s plenty of margin at both ends of the market, hense why some posh bike shops stay in business and some selling bso stay in business as well.

Halo products are where all the margin is. Entry level products are sold close to cost.

I’ve never heard a bike shop owner claim the halo stuff kept them in business. The stuff that flies out the door on the other hand…

Yep, my hunch is the past two years’ worth of price hikes won’t fully stick.

Of course some of it was driven by material price rises and economic factors, but its obvious that opportunism played a part too.

I’m not wholly convinced.

I think the UK is an outlier with a plummeting currency. 15 years ago the top of the range Cannondale Rush was £4000, carbon frame, XTR, etc etc. Now the equivalent bikes are £8000. Over the same time period the £ has devalued by 50% against the dollar. I suspect if you’re in the USA then you’d be enjoying golden age of durable cheap MTB components at the moment!

If it was still £1:$2 then those “bargain” £105 GX cassettes at R2 would be ~£65, which suddenly seems a whole lot more acceptable to those of us brought up with 8/9/10speed £35 XT cassettes.

Especially based on ‘cost of living’, my US colleagues are all comfortably earning double the UK rate.
Average UK wage £36k, average US wage is $75k.

If it was still £1:$2 then those “bargain” £105 GX cassettes at R2 would be ~£65, which suddenly seems a whole lot more acceptable to those of us brought up with 8/9/10speed £35 XT cassettes.

yeah, I’m still mentally at 1.4 or 1.5 to 1 with the dollar. Whenever I see prices quoted in dollars and I think that wont be too bad unless the importers take the piss… but its nearly 1:1 now.
Not just US brands, all the far east stuff is priced in dollars isnt it?

Halo products are where all the margin is. Entry level products are sold close to cost.

I’m not sure that is correct…had a mate who ran a bike shop and as much as he enjoyed selling the top-end kit, he was always happier selling the cheaper stuff as the margins were much bigger so he was able to pay bills with less stress.

Then there was volume – larger margin on the cheaper stuff and was able to sell more of that level.

Halo stuff is always nice to look at, aim for and desire, but it costs more money to get in so unless you are certain to sell it, it is a risk…certainly for eye catching stuff to draw people in, they certainly help, but they don’t make the money for the bike shop as easily as the cheaper stuff.

Saw this video on Youtube last week of a talk done by Ronnie aka Mr. Ultradynamico. If you’ve got some spare time to listen to the whole thing it might resonate with some of the OldSkool riders on here, I only intended to watch a few minutes…then sat through the whole thing. I like and agree with almost every thing he has to say about the current state of the bike industry- in the way that modern mtb has become something quite different to back then, and yet at the same time, it doesn’t have to be. This way of thinking is probably more pertinent than ever given whats happening to most peoples finances in the UK, we’re going backwards while the rest of the world leaves us behind, yet we’ll still be paying prices set on an international market. Retro is the new cool…has been for a while.

Philly bike Expo Ultradynamico

I’m not sure that is correct…had a mate who ran a bike shop and as much as he enjoyed selling the top-end kit, he was always happier selling the cheaper stuff as the margins were much bigger so he was able to pay bills with less stress.

Margin is never the same across suppliers, or even within categories from the same supplier, and is unlikely to be the same from shop to shop. One business may have got a better rate by buying into a brand – forward ordering many £1000s worth of product to achieve a better price. Some suppliers give different margins on different lines. One business may pay it’s invoices early specifically to gain a discount, whereas other companies may pay their bills at the very last minute, or later, ignoring the savings they may have achieved. There are all sorts of incentives for bike shops to gain better rates, but not all LBSs can take advantage of those. (EG do you want a 50% margin on mudguards? Just buy £X000 net worth in one consignment and then you can achieve it.) Many LBSs will never sell the amount needed to achieve best margin.

The amount of time it takes to fix a cheap bike when they come out of the box Im not sure the margins are all that good. If its costing you workshop rates to spend an hour fixing the egg shaped wheels, making the brakes actually work, or replacing the already pinch flatted tube (All things I had to do on a decent brand’s kid’s bike recently) you’re not making money on it.

Shunting them out the door in their original boxes. Thats where the money is at!

I was about to buy a new bike but decided to spend the money going to North India to ride. I can’t do both and big mountains on an old bike are always better than local hills on a new bike.

Halo products are where all the margin is. Entry level products are sold close to cost.

Have you ever worked in the bike retail industry? The average cost of a new bike in the UK is under £400. Given that the vast majority of bike sold will be at this point or lower, the ‘halo’ products really don’t make bike shops much money. The returns might be higher, but you’re not shifting the units. Halfords sell many thousands of bicycles each week, the majority of those being kids’ bikes. Halfords enjoys a 20-25% share of the UK bike retail market. Decathlon also sell large volumes of cheap bikes. MTBs are a relatively small (and shrinking) sector. That sector has become more ‘specialist’, so you’ll find a lot more expensive MTBs than other types. Hybrid/commuter bikes are the largest sector of adult bikes. Folding bike sales have rocketed in the last decade, as have e-bikes in the last 5 or so. I think e-bikes are the fastest expanding sector now, and MTBs the fastest shrinking. The kind of customers who once bought an MTB as standard (late 80s-early 2000s) now buy road bikes, hybrids, folding bikes and e-bikes before they buy MTBs. also; second hand bike sales have increased loads, and those figures aren’t included in the new bike sales figures of course. So the actual real median (or is it mode) amount spent on a bicycle in the UK right now, is probably significantly lower than £400.

Bike shops have had to radically alter their business models in order to survive. Some have gone more specialist, with dedicated roadie/e-bike etc shops popping up, and others are far more repair and servicing focussed now. There are even lots more community recycle type projects going now. Due to online sales, most bike shops have given up trying to compete for component sales, and now rely more on helmets/clothing/accessories. Gone are the days when you could pop into your LBS and they’d have the correct size/fitting XT/XTR/Dura Ace/Ulegra/whatever mech in stock. Most things now have to be ordered in (some shops even just tell customers to buy it themselves online, and charge for fitting and set-up). Which is a shame, cos I used to like going in and drooling over the stuff in the Shiny Bits Cabinets.

Which is a shame, cos I used to like going in and drooling over the stuff in the Shiny Bits Cabinets.

Most of the old school shops i’ve gone in recently are more likely to have a dusty bits cabinet than a shiny bits one.

If you’ve got some spare time to listen to the whole thing it might resonate with some of the OldSkool riders on here, I only intended to watch a few minutes…then sat through the whole thing

Is there a TL;DR version of that? I’m afraid I zoned out after just a couple of minutes. His delivery isn’t the best.

yeah, I’m still mentally at 1.4 or 1.5 to 1 with the dollar.

I’m still at around 1.6:1. Late 90s. Was easy to work out dollars to pounds, as it was more or less the same as kilometres to miles.

Most of the old school shops i’ve gone in recently are more likely to have a dusty bits cabinet than a shiny bits one.

🤣 I did find a Chris King headset in a LBS a few years back; it had been there for well over 10 years. I know, because I’d enquired about buying it way back then, but they weren’t willing to budge on RRP. It had been there a while even then. Ended up getting it for about £75. It still sits in my spares box as we speak….🫢

Not just US brands, all the far east stuff is priced in dollars isnt it?

Yes, or mostly US$ with Taiwan $ / NTD for some parts. 35NTD to the £ now, was 45-50 8 years or so ago. Guess when it dropped.

As people above have said I don’t think we on here are typical bike buyers.
To use a car analogy we all have Ferraris, Koenigsegs,and Paganis (and the singlespeeders like me insisting that their Caterhams are great) but most people are just buying a Golf or Focus to get about in, often not new and often maintained as cheaply as possible. That is the bulk of the market, not us lot and our track-day specials.

As equivalents I’m more in to an the old 80’s air-cooled 911 version of things…in fact not much modern stuff interests me of anything on the market fullstop, but I realise this is strange. We don’t all have to be tech fetishists- be a marketing departments worst nightmare, might help save the planet too.

Retro is the new cool…has been for a while.

Philly bike Expo Ultradynamico

Yep quite a fe account if inst with people repurposing old bikes

I watch that talk as well quite enjoyed it and again agree with a lot of it. I have thought for some while mtb has split into two sections. I enjoy both but it’s easier to KISS on the bike packing / touring / adventures side than the ENDURO side. I do wish the ENDURO side took a few lessons from skate / bmx and became more rider owned and run. A bit more standardisation etc. The trouble is so much of that side of the market is obsessed with buying a product, buying bikes a s a unit rather than sum of parts etc. Look at all the people in fox shirts.

Halfords sell many thousands of bicycles each week, the majority of those being kids’ bikes. Halfords enjoys a 20-25% share of the UK bike retail market. Decathlon also sell large volumes of cheap bikes. MTBs are a relatively small (and shrinking) sector. That sector has become more ‘specialist’, so you’ll find a lot more expensive MTBs than other types. Hybrid/commuter bikes are the largest sector of adult bikes. Folding bike sales have rocketed in the last decade, as have e-bikes in the last 5 or so. I think e-bikes are the fastest expanding sector now, and MTBs the fastest shrinking. The kind of customers who once bought an MTB as standard (late 80s-early 2000s) now buy road bikes, hybrids, folding bikes and e-bikes before they buy MTBs.

Its a very hard thing to define. If we are talking about cycling or mtbing as a hobby, how do we capture that value, and exclude the general purpose halfords/decathalon bike that will never see dirt, or even a ride-for-the-sake-of-a-ride?

Richard Cunningham in the Pinkbike podcast talks about the rise of the cheapish mtb in the 90s – an upright position with brakes that worked, tyres that were still at a ridable pressure after sitting in the garage for a month, and gears for the average unfit person to get up a hill.
That was missing from the road, BMX or cruisers that were the only other options at the time.
Now we have expensive bouncy bits, tyres that drag and wear out on tarmac and need sealant and stuff. Its not the idiot proof bike it used to be. Sensible hybrids have filled that void.

What was the bike selected in STWs recent article on the cheapest possible practical entry to the sport? it was more than the £400 average UK bike value.

So either MTBs are so rare that overall bike industry statistics are meaningless, or there are a whole load of £150 Apollos that are defined as MTBs, again, making it a rather pointless exercise.

Its a very hard thing to define. If we are talking about cycling or mtbing as a hobby, how do we capture that value, and exclude the general purpose halfords/decathalon bike that will never see dirt, or even a ride-for-the-sake-of-a-ride?

But bikes like that may well see ‘dirt’, albeit in the form of a bridalway, footpath etc. It doesn’t have to be 1000m+ and granite-strewn to be ‘off road’. And there are a hell of a lot more bikes like that out there than there are expensive FS bikes. Many get used simply as utility/commuting bikes. My point was that that sector is still shrinking, and is nowhere near the heyday of the late 80s-early 90s when MTBs were the largest selling sector in adult bikes. You’ll still see far more hybrid style bikes out there; the ‘Dutch’ style bike is increasingly popular in urban centres now too. Bikes bought with the sole purpose of riding off road in more demanding terrain, are dwindling in number. It’s become an increasingly specialist niche. Of course, you can ride any sort of bike off road if you really want to, but the marketing bods won’t tell you that.

Richard Cunningham in the Pinkbike podcast talks about the rise of the cheapish mtb in the 90s – an upright position with brakes that worked, tyres that were still at a ridable pressure after sitting in the garage for a month, and gears for the average unfit person to get up a hill.
That was missing from the road, BMX or cruisers that were the only other options at the time.
Now we have expensive bouncy bits, tyres that drag and wear out on tarmac and need sealant and stuff. Its not the idiot proof bike it used to be. Sensible hybrids have filled that void.

It’s a good, valid point. The difference is that late 80s / early 90s ATBs were cool and exciting but hybrids aren’t, never were. ‘Flat bar gravel’ is a carbon-forked point-missed attempt to recreate that original ATB buzz while most brands making entry level MTBs now think they need to be copies of more expensive modern MTBS. They get poor quality suspension forks when a good rigid steel fork and 2.25″ tyres was all they ever needed. Halfords figured all this out and made the Carrera Subway, I wouldn’t be suprised if they made more money on that bike in a year than most specialist MTB companies did.

Bikes bought with the sole purpose of riding off road in more demanding terrain, are dwindling in number. It’s become an increasingly specialist niche.

Increasingly electrified too.

As equivalents I’m more in to an the old 80’s air-cooled 911 version of things…in fact not much modern stuff interests me of anything on the market fullstop, but I realise this is strange. We don’t all have to be tech fetishists- be a marketing departments worst nightmare, might help save the planet too.

Yes, but like that 80’s 911 these ‘retro’ bikes pretty much sit in garages & sheds not getting dirty and not getting (properly) used.

For me bikes are just like cars (and motorbikes which I use to have) – they get used, serviced/repaired/updated and then replaced as and when they need to be.

Is there a TL;DR version of that?

I guess the key thing is he’s pointing out that the cycling culture in the US is increasingly influenced in the mainstream by a small collection of venture capitalists who own a lot of the brands but also the key marketing magazines like “Outside” – and that this modern version of ‘mtb’ has reached a sort of zenith of marketed commodity heavy ‘lifestyle experience’ activity that sits quite at odds with the more counter-cultural adventurous spirit of early mtb’ers. This has been true for a long time, but I think he’s right now more than ever as pricing continues to go up on a lot of kit we’re convinced we need… and so pulling up the drawbridge of participation. As as a lot of commentators above recognise though, some of the best aspects of the sport we’re in to can be done in a more low-fi, low-key way – that we don’t need to be going at warp factor 9 with all the latest Enduro gnardude gear on, and that contrary to popular opinion you can ride simply durable ATB type bikes up gnarly mountains and its different but still fun, maybe more so.

Yes, but like that 80’s 911 these ‘retro’ bikes pretty much sit in garages & sheds not getting dirty and not getting (properly) used

Are they? Our oldest bike is a 1998 Cannondale F400, that still gets regular use. My newest bike is over 10 years old. My most used bike is 19 years old and still going strong. And I know plenty of people still regularly riding old bikes. Plenty of life left in the old dogs yet!

@Endoverend; ah, thanks. Pretty much my own views tbh.

cycling culture in the US is increasingly influenced in the mainstream by a small collection of venture capitalists who own a lot of the brands but also the key marketing magazines like “Outside” – and that this modern version of ‘mtb’ has reached a sort of zenith of marketed commodity heavy ‘lifestyle experience’ activity

wait what? either I don’t see this at all, or (possibly more likely) I am myself a victim of it. Can you elaborate? Though I appreciate you are merely summarising the podcast.

cycling culture in the US is increasingly influenced in the mainstream by a small collection of venture capitalists who own a lot of the brands but also the key marketing magazines like “Outside” – and that this modern version of ‘mtb’ has reached a sort of zenith of marketed commodity heavy ‘lifestyle experience’ activity

Whilst there are ripples of that in the UK (every trail center car park has a corner where the T5’s congregate), the US is very different. Join a few MTB groups on facebook and they very much buy into it. Nothing is ridden from your door, it’s all “should I spec a LS V8 or Cummins in my truck to drive to Bentonville”. They’re counterculture, but mostly in the Trump voting rather than Grateful Dead listening way.

Not just US brands, all the far east stuff is priced in dollars isnt it?

Yup… and no matter where your brand is based… where are their forks, brakes, shock, drivetrain, tyres… etc likely to made and bought from? Some will be from UK manufacturers, but not the majority.

Some will be from UK manufacturers, but not the majority.

The strange to watch aspect is that Hope stuff is slowly looking closer to the mainstream brands pricing. A Pair of Pro2 hubs is now only ~30% more than a set of XT or Bitex! Same for a set of V4’s Vs XT 4-pots.

Wasn’t that long ago that Hope was a halfway stop between XTR and Chris King!

and that this modern version of ‘mtb’ has reached a sort of zenith of marketed commodity heavy ‘lifestyle experience’ activity

Did you mean ‘nadir’?

I am not that aware of the situation, and this may be a US specific thing, but certainly in the last decade many well known brands we are familiar with are snapped up by a relatively small number of investors where they sit alongside other similar brands in their portfolios – and the relationships are not always that transparent. This sort of thing has come under more scrutiny recently thanks to the other more nefarious activities some of these parent companies also fund and support. But the key is also that they own a lot of the media companies distributing the marketing message… he mentions Lance Armstrong having a major involvement, which wasn’t something I was aware of but it’s interesting. Bare in mind Ronnie used to be a Specialised sponsored rider and has worked in the trade, so seems to know the ins and outs, as well as having resplendent hair. The way I see it, what has changed for us in the UK is that increasingly since the advent of social media and predominance of sites such as Pinkbike, more of the younger riders here identify with the culture exemplified by the US scene – without perhaps fully realising the vast differences in spending power of the average UK vs US rider, so to do the thing we think we want to do we’re relatively robbed for it. While the translation of the type of riding for our relative terrain doesn’t always warrant it.

The way I see it, what has changed for us in the UK is that increasingly since the advent of social media and predominance of sites such as Pinkbike, more of the younger riders here identify with the culture exemplified by the US scene….While the translation of the type of riding for our relative terrain doesn’t always warrant it.

Interesting. I am in the younger age on here, and didn’t start mtbing until my twenties. My formative information was 100% internet.
I’ve never bought a paper mtb magazine, never watched a VHS mtb video.

Terrain/trail wise, here in the south of england I probably have more in common with Mike Kazimer in Bellingham than most of STW towers and their local haunts.

re: that video…or another way to look at it is… now the hipsters got rap beef because their zone of grungy gravel riding is getting mobbed by the ‘too serious’ corporate race set – so in reaction the bang-on-trend vibe is to put an alt-bar on your gravel rig or retro-modded desirable 26″ Norba race frame and head up high in the hills, where no one can see what yr smoking…

 quite at odds with the more counter-cultural adventurous spirit of early mtb’ers.

Only pitched like that to sell MTBer’s to roadies looking for the next thing. For me, my MTB ha remained cycling a big circle in the wood/moors/whatever. I think that that’s probably true for most folks, the only difference now is that I don’t have to repair or service my bike after every ride, as it’s actually fit for purpose.

When superhero’s coming out of the inside of mountains/volcanos, a cave/underground lair, futuristic airborne carrier, space base, undersea base was replaced by an office and board meeting setup you knew your “nerd culture” had been sold out.

American corporates own all culture now. Their message is simple, anyone/you can buy into this experience.

Some on here will be trimming their cloth to a Cashmere cod piece, while strutting around with the curtains open and heating on full blast.

Have you got a link to buy said cashmere codpiece?

Have you got a link to buy said cashmere codpiece?

I’m more amused at the fact that a sign of wealth these days is to turn the heating up to full blast!

Interesting discussion about the corporate side there.

Having been out of the bike market for some decades, I recently acquired a Cannondale. Was very surprised to discover that Cannondale are these days ultimately owned by the same conglomerate that also owns GT, Santa Cruz, cervelo, mongoose, Gazelle, Schwinn etc! It’s all come a long way from the old stories of some engineer making frames in his garage.

Cannondale went corporate in the early 2000’s, I think as a result of their failed MX project.