So I bought this picnic table off of the ‘bay. A major reason I chose this particular model over some similarly priced but slightly more attractive models was that the description clearly states ‘FSC certified, hard wood’ now I don’t know what FSC certification is but I do know what hard wood is, and this picnic table, whilst going together nicely, is certainly not. I’ve sent a message to the vendor saying as much, and am awaiting a reply. However, I’ve built the thing now, what do I do now? It’s not going to be easy to return. Irritating.

Edit; not sure what I’ve got wrong with hyperlink, sorry. Can’t do anything right today :-/

You do know that Balsa wood is a hardwood, don’t you?.

I do. But I don’t think it’s balsa. As an update, they’ve replied, basically asking me for evidence that it’s not made from hardwood, so seems they went on the same smart arse course as you 😉

If it’s not as described, you can reject the goods. You haven’t rejected the goods, you’ve accepted them and built it. It’s a bit like complaining to a restaurant about your meal after you’ve eaten it.

Whilst the seller’s reply is a bit off (they could’ve provided an explanation of what the materials are rather than gone “prove it” which almost implies that they’re lying), from their point of view some random bloke on the Internet is claiming to know more about wood than they do.

What do you do now? What do you want to do now?

http://www.fsc-uk.org/en-uk/about-fsc/what-is-fsc

Listing coming up as removed. I’d go through eBay. As it’s advertised as fsc certified, surely it has FSC stamping? If not, false advertising.

As above. Raise it with eBay. They usually side with the buyer. There should be an option to print out a returns label too although that may be trickier with a table you’ve already built.

Out of interest how do you know it isn’t hard wood? Can you post some close up pics for the armchair experts?

If it’s not as described, you can reject the goods. You haven’t rejected the goods, you’ve accepted them and built it. It’s a bit like complaining to a restaurant about your meal after you’ve eaten it.

This is true, and hence my pondering. However, I’m no wood expert, and only became increasingly suspicious through the build process, with copious googling that evening hardening my suspicion. To use your analogy; it’s like my steak tasted a little funny, but I couldn’t put my finger on why, but the resulting next three days on the loo revealed to me why. Should I accept that as I’ve eaten it all? 😉

Can you post some close up pics for the armchair experts?

It’s not a bloody armchair. Try to keep up. 🙂

Out of interest how do you know it isn’t hard wood? Can you post some close up pics for the armchair experts?

I don’t know, but I strongly suspect due to the the large growth rings and it kinda looks more uniform (like pine), as well as the weight. That’s why I’m asking on here though.

How to tell if wood is hardwood?
Intro: Hard Wood or Soft Wood? Use your fingernail to tell the difference between hard and soft wood. …
Step 1: Soft Wood. When you press your thumbnail against soft wood and pull it along the surface it leaves a scratch mark. …
Step 2: Hard Wood. When you press your nail against hard wood it will not leave a mark

quick google search

Hard or softwood aside, what’s it say on the certificate? Is there a certificate?

Hard Wood. When you press your nail against hard wood it will not leave a mark

Hard or softwood aside, what’s it say on the certificate? Is there a certificate?

No certificate supplied.

Regarding the fingernail test; I’m aware that isn’t 100% infallible (balsa) but it’s fair to say that if you’re advertising wood as hardwood for outdoor furniture, it’s likely to be the hard, sense properties of common hardwood that you’re looking for, for durability and weather resistance. (Fails, btw)

Only joking really (Edinburgh Defence), I’d also be pretty peeved if it wasn’t heavy and hard as hardwood implies.

No certificate supplied.

Then that’s what I’d be chasing up in the first instance. Never mind you having to prove anything, they need to prove they’ve sold you is genuine and that’s the certification. Are they listed here?
http://memberportal.fsc.org/

I still reckon you’ve made a rod for your back by building it though. I suppose the question is, you’ve been misled, but are you happy with the product to put that behind you? If you aren’t and they aren’t playing ball, see how they react to being reported to the FSC.

I still reckon you’ve made a rod for your back by building it though.

I certainly don’t disagree, which I kind of why I posted here. It’s more complicated than a simple ‘this is not the DVD I ordered’ issue. Honestly, I only started to become dissatisfied AS I built it; it’s a nice enough thing, I just don’t feel that it’s going to have the longevity that I was looking for, and I’d have bought something different if I’d have known the truth. Issue is not being able to see before buying, so I’d kind of hope for some distance selling buyer protection in this instance.

Will pursue through eBay.

Can you unbuild it back to how it was when you received it?

Probably, or pretty close. There’s a few self tappers that will leave a hole, but it’s mostly bolts. Haven’t got boxes though; they were big and hadn’t got any room to store them.

it looks like softwood to me, stained pine. does the listing say hard wood or hardwood, hard wood is hard wood. hardwood could be balsa…

edit; I see it says “duable hardwood”. IS it durable?

I agree with suburbanreuben the photos look like stained pine.

IS it durable?

I very much doubt it. It’s functional now, but I doubt it would see out more than one winter without a lot of protection. It doesn’t feel ‘beer garden grade’ which is what I was looking for.

The pictures on the linked listing look suspiciously like renderings (on a phone screen).

So after lots of back and forths with this vendor, I have an open PayPal dispute with a ruling that I am eligible for a refund. However, PayPal say that I need to pay for p&p, which on his item will be pricey, no doubt. Meanwhile the vendor seems to have caved slightly and has offered to send a courier to collect. However, PayPal require a tracking number, and the vendor won’t provide one, as “it was done over the phone with TNT”. I’m worried that if I send the item back without a tracking number, I’m going to end up without a table OR a refund. Can I get a consignment number for tracking from the driver? Am I right to be suspicious? Or is this all going to end happily?

Edit; Just had a reply to my “surely you must have a consignment number?” email; cutnpasted below.

“As their online system is down we had to phone up and a lady has to manually
put this in her system so we do not have the consignment number. ”

Their online system has been down recently something to do with the cyber attacks so our TNT man says, we’ve been signing paper copies and not their handheld scanners

Have just sent this as a reply to the above

I’m having a problem with trusting your company. Early on in this situation some very odd and seemingly evasive questions were asked of me, with the seeming aim of putting off giving me a refund for this substandard product. Now I am being told that you will refund once collected today, but from my point of view, this could either be a) a time wasting exercise designed to time out the PayPal dispute, or b) that I could send the parcel today, and I never see either the item or my money again as I have NO proof of delivery, which is a requirement for PayPal to refund me.

Please help me with the above trust issues.
Apologies for the consecutive postings

Haha, excellent. Sounds so dodgy, the idea that TNT wouldn’t have a consignment number even if signed by hand or done over the phone

Just get the driver to sign something and print his first and second name. Take the reg of the van and time of arrival too.

TNT will hand you a copy of the consignment paperwork on collection.

It could be true. TNT have been massively affected by the cyber attack over 3 weeks ago and are still not fully back up and running which is why we are currently not using TNT for collections.

The driver should give you a reference number and collection receipt when they turn up. If they don;t, refuse the collection

Dave

I would of gone through eBay rather than PayPal – eBay’s customer support is excellent and will never make a buyer pay for return postage, and will instead buy the postage themselves and give you tracking etc directly, then invoice the seller afterwards.

PayPal’s customer support is notoriously shit, however.

I notice now on the listing there is no mention of hardwood.

I notice now on the listing there is no mention of hardwood.

Absolutely. An admission of guilt, if ever there was one…

Missed the eBay dispute process due to my lackadaisical actions combined with the sellers initial stalling tactics (can you PROVE it’s not hardwood?). Closes after 30 days, PayPal you have 180 days.

Anyway, driver turned up, got a consignment number and signed slip from him, and PayPal have accepted the tracking info. Still looking for a scam angle but cautiously optimistic…

Just to back up the TNT theory, we @(work) use them all the time, and they’ve not been able to give us tracking numbers for 2 months now.