Consultation on/discussion of legal framework for Autonomous Vehicles

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  • Consultation on/discussion of legal framework for Autonomous Vehicles
  • Premier Icon wwaswas
    Subscriber

    Bit dry maybe but this spells out the ways that legislation is being framed for the use of semi and fully autonomous vehicles. Document here: https://s3-eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/lawcom-prod-storage-11jsxou24uy7q/uploads/2018/11/6.5066_LC_AV-Consultation-Paper-5-November_061118_WEB-1.pdf

    There’s brief mention of cyclists in terms of AV’s on motorways but nothing about the issue of identifying vulnerable road users in more chaotic urban environments.
    <div>Where a vehicle is listed as capable of safely driving itself, and the automated driving</div>
    <div>system is correctly engaged, the human user would not be a driver. In particular, the</div>
    <div>user would not generally be liable for criminal offences arising out of the driving task.

    Going to make establishing who pays for a SMIDSY a bit of a minefield.

    My main concern is that it really just says there’s no restriction on who can put an unoccupied self driving car on UK roads now and there won’t really in future be any scrutiny of how their software systems work and manage risk – it’s assumed manufacturers will do this (whilst at the same time saying ‘if you produce less than 100 you don’t need type approval so no evidence of diligence is required).

    Anyway, if you’re interested, have a read and there’s an opportunity to respond here: https://consult.justice.gov.uk/law-commission/automated-vehicles/
    </div>

    Premier Icon mikewsmith
    Subscriber

    Going to make establishing who pays for a SMIDSY a bit of a minefield.

    Isurance would need to be specific for the vehicle and the features fitted. Use would be logged in a way the driver couldn’t access.

    Sensors and cameras should also show the w exactly what happened so prosecution would be easier.

    Premier Icon tthew
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    I’m sure you’re correct Mike, but I’d not want to be the unfortunate cyclist who was the test case after the first accident!

    Premier Icon mikewsmith
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    I’m sure you’re correct Mike, but I’d not want to be the unfortunate cyclist who was the test case after the first accident!

    Mu colleague is in hospital at the moment after a truck turned left through him. A computer to stop that happening would have been nice.

    Just think sensibly for a moment, who would insure something that you can erase the logs from? Who would let you insure one of these without a specific policy in place to protect them.

    Autonomous vehicles suffer from the tech “fear” perhaps the best thing would be a lot of practical demonstrations and a report of how many things it detected during a drive and corrected for.

    Premier Icon duncancallum
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    So autonomous cars

    Will you still need a licence or can some rich 12yo have one?

    Premier Icon richmars
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    It’s not ‘tech fear’ that puts me off them. It’s the understanding of just how difficult it is to make something that will be safe.Fine in the daylight driving round LA. Maybe not so easy in the dark and rain, on a single track road with pot holes (which, apparently, confuse the software).

    https://www.newcivilengineer.com/tech-excellence/potholes-are-stalling-uk-driverless-car-innovation/10032460.article

    Premier Icon mikewsmith
    Subscriber

    Well let’s get on with improving them.

    I said it in the last thread, I assume everyone will be happy to pass the same level of capability as we impose on autonomous cars themselves to be let out on the road.

    Premier Icon wwaswas
    Subscriber

    We’ve had self service check outs for 20 years and I rarely get through a basket full without an issue that requires human intervention.

    Given how simple a task that is compared with driving a car in not hopeful that fully autonomous vehicles will be viable in mixed traffic areas any time soon.

    Premier Icon mikewsmith
    Subscriber

    We’ve had self service check outs for 20 years and I rarely get through a basket full without an issue that requires human intervention.

    1 billion tonnes hauled.

    Self service check out has heaps of human controls to deal with people trying to nick stuff.

    Premier Icon richmars
    Subscriber

    Companies are spending lots of money on self driving cars, with the expectation of making huge profits.

    I’m not sure profit should be the driving force in their introduction.

    Premier Icon mikewsmith
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    I’m not sure profit should be the driving force in their introduction.

    Give me another way to reduce humans killing humans in cars

    Premier Icon richmars
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    And self driving cars are proven to be safer?

    sbob
    Member

    Insurance would need to be specific for the vehicle and the features fitted.

    Insurance, and ergo liability is the key question here. I think the boss of Volvo said that they would cover insurance, and fully autonomous cars on the road will not happen until manufacturers do this.

    Wake me up when this happens, nothing to discuss til then.

    Premier Icon mikewsmith
    Subscriber

    Let’s prove it, let’s do the research there. Set your standard and apply it to drivers too.

    This involves getting these cars out there.we already allow basically children to drive with no independent controls only having an adult in the car with them which is more dangerous?

    There are logs and reports from semi and fully autonomous systems out there, what do they tell us? How do they compare to humans

    https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/cyclist-struck-truck-oxford-road-15378389

    Would the computer have looked before turning left in this situation?

    Premier Icon richmars
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    I’m not saying self driving cars aren’t safe, or that humans are better drivers. And it’s easy to find examples of bad drivers where a computer would be better.

    But all the self driving cars I’ve seen are being test on wide, open roads, mostly in the USA.

    When they’re driving around London, in rush hour, in the rain, at night, I’ll take them seriously.

    Premier Icon mikewsmith
    Subscriber

    When they’re driving around London, in rush hour, in the rain, at night, I’ll take them seriously.

    Well there are a set driving round a busy tech park in Oxfordshire in all weather.

    So let’s see them drive, easy to put a pilot in there to supervise and prove the tech.

    Premier Icon wwaswas
    Subscriber

    1 billion tonnes hauled.

    It’s not exactly Cheam high Street at 4pm on a wet winter Saturday is it?

    But all the self driving cars I’ve seen are being test on wide, open roads, mostly in the USA.

    No.. lots done in UK and elsewhere too

    eg:

    https://five.ai/

    Home

    The problems you are talking about are about perception. i.e. can the vehicle map the environment properly. Whilst this is tricky, i think it’s solvable.

    The difficult bit is in the decision making, because this involves dealing with people and their reactions to a driverless car. It’s not like predicting the weather, because peoples reactions and movements might change based upon what the autonomous vehicle does in response to it’s predictions. There’s a feedback loop. More like control theory. Makes it difficult to test and prove how safe it is.

    Premier Icon wwaswas
    Subscriber

    There’s some interesting reading here about how AI’s react to the rules they’re given:
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/1/d/e/2PACX-1vRPiprOaC3HsCf5Tuum8bRfzYUiKLRqJmbOoC-32JorNdfyTiRRsR7Ea5eWtvsWzuxo8bjOxCG84dAg/pubhtml

    I don’t have a problem with AI’s running cars I just think that law makers and politicians have no real grasp of what’s going on, commercial organisations that will profit from them have no incentive to point out potential flaws until it’s too late.

    That Uber accident where they’d turned down the threat detection algorithm because it kept braking for carrier bags in the road but then ended up hitting a pedestrian is a classic example of a commercial imperative over-rode a safety one and there’s nothing in the docs I’ve seen linked to at the top that says there will be legislation allowing independent inspection of how these black box AI’s work or what imperative’s they’re given.

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