A friend's sister was knocked off her bike and killed last year. A petition to try and raise awareness.

I have a firend whose sister was knocked down in a hit and ruin and died. Also Mr Andy C's death brings it all close to home.

I'd thought I'd post this here:

"
Since Ash's sister, Eilidh, was killed by an HGV whilst cycling to work in February, I see no action to date that will prevent the same happening again.

* Eight cyclists have died, directly as a result of a collision with
a lorry, on London streets alone this year (so far…) More in
other cities.
* The majority of them were women.
* The majority, if not all, were experienced, fit, strong, law
abiding cyclists.

If you know anyone, colleague, family or friend, who cycles in the centre of UK cities, please read, consider and sign this petition.
The aim is clear: to reduce cyclist deaths by HGVs to zero. Currently the number is rising.
Please tell your friends, colleagues, tweet it, set it as facebook status. Thank you so much for your time.
http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/LGV-Cycle-Safety/

Done.
I almost got took off buy a Truck this morning too because the fecker couldn't bother to look in the mirror.

Sorry about the deaths but in my opinion this is the wrong solution. Improved road design and education for cyclists as well as HGV drivers would seem more appropriate. I do not know the specific details of these deaths but virtually everyday I see cyclists putting themselves in danger due to poor road position in relation to HGVs. Better road design that separated cycles for HGVs at junctions could also help.

Needs three parts to solution

agree TJ i see folk everyday in aberdeen trying to sneak down the left hand side of trucks.

I prefer to overtake them on the right hand side – giving me A road to get out the way and B the driver better visability of me !

the way i see it is if its good enough for motorbikes then its good enough for me.

Signed. I came across the aftermath of a cyclist knocked over and killed here in Manchester by a turning lorry on my way home. Stopped me commuting for two weeks 🙁

Well TJ I disagree.
WhenI was overtaking the truck this morning I was on the correct side of the road and I even pointed my light at the mirror.

So the fecker wasn't even bother to look.

TJ, your points are all correct as far as I can see, but they are not likely to happen as it would mean a major redesign of most junctions, with the implicit admission that the motor vehicle is not the undisputed king of the road. In this country, that would go down about as well as a fart in a spacesuit.

I've signed.

This cropped up in another thread last week:

http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/if-your-fed-up-of-cyclists-dying-on-our-city-streets-and-want-to-get-involved

As TJ mentioned above (and as I and others have said on the previous thread), you can fit all the mirrors and cameras you want to a lorry but if a cyclist goes through Mirror 1 while the driver is busy looking at Camera 5 then it's not really going to help.

Better education for all – a simple (part) solution would be to do what they did with those bendy buses when they were first introduced and in response to a rash of cyclist/bus collisions. Cyclists didn't realise just how long the bus was and how much space it needed when turning, those yellow signs saying "Caution, this bus is 18m long" cut the accident rate dramatically almost straight away.

Cyclists deaths are tragic, but only yesterday I saw a woman cyclist swing into the path of a HGV, when there was an adequate cyclepath to use instead. Education and training is needed but IMO cyclists and HGVs are incompatible on modern roads. I dont know how a realistic solution can be attained without a huge input from local and central government and massive overhaul of traffic strategy, which we all know just aint gonna happen…

We have had a TV campaign in Denmark recently advising cyclist about the blind spots that lorries have when turning (the rules are different here so cyclist have the right of way, that means that they assume that they won't get run down which is rather odd anyway)
Anyway, the upshot is that there has been a fall in the number of cycling deaths during the year.
I think the answer is education for both drivers and cyclists bith when learning and on an ongoing basis through advertsising campaigns etc.

We all make mistakes, cyclists and drivers. I've swerved out unexpectedly whilst adjusting something- could have been bad news if it wasnt quiet on that road. Same with drivers.

So when an HGV overtakes you and then cuts in before the back of his trailer is past, that is poor education on the cyclists part?
You couldn't give me any education whatsoever that will make cycling any safer – but the dick in the lorry that caught my arm with the rear t-bar on his trailer (then told me he saw me "in the layby") could benefit greatly. Or maybe his lack of capacity to learn would hold him back anyway.

I've signed, but does anything really ever come of these online petitions? Except to make us feel like we've "done our bit" with a very easy and convenient few clicks of the mouse?

I remember reading about this last year and thinking then how sad and what a waste of a good life.

signed

signed, but I agree with TJ and trailrat.
Undertaking an hgv, even a stationary one is just stupid- they've got enough to concentrate on, especially in slow moving heavy traffic without spending as much time checking their offside mirror as looking at the road in front and their onside mirror for overtaking motorbikes. Those signs saying 'if you can't see me then I can't see you' on the back of trucks are a bit of an eye opener.
In heavy commuting traffic a cyclist can be travelling 3-4times as fast as the motorised traffic, and can be very easy to miss.
FWIW, when commuting I don't ride in the gutter, I take up a position where a vehicle has to conciously overtake me, and I only overtake on the correct side.

Sorry to hear about the deaths.

I do however think that sometimes we get hung up on trying to stop things that unfortunately are inevitable. With so many cyclists and trucks/cars on the roads, there comes a point where accidents happen and regardless of how aware and safe we try to make things, there is a limit.

As suggested above, lets make things better by imrpoving road design and awareness, but in the long run, i believe that we arent that far from as good as it gets already.

Cyclists make mistakes, driver make mistakes. This is why i hate riding on the roads.

There was a thread a while ago about a missinterpretation of the highway code where we discussed being forced to use cyclelanes or we would be open to police prosecution. The amount of people on this site who were up in arms about being forced to use a cycle lane which would slow them down on their ultra fast commute to work on their carbon exotica. How can you protect people who dont want to be protected?

The amount of people on this site who were up in arms about being forced to use a cycle lane which would slow them down on their ultra fast commute to work on their carbon exotica. How can you protect people who dont want to be protected?

Getting slightly off topic now but from my experience cycle lanes add nothing but dangers and confusion. Most on-road cycle lanes are too narrow and start and stop so cars are not expecting cyclists to pop in and out of traffic, or indeed simply ignore the lane marking. Off-road lanes have some merit, but since they have to cross every side street, go up and down every kerb, cross pavements etc, they simply add more places for collision and mistake to occur, not least the fact that they cross junctions back from the give-way line so cars rarely stop with sufficient room to pass between, meaning you have to dart between slow moving traffic in 2 directions.

Just use the roads sensibly, no need to seperate people. The more you do the more it becomes an us-and-them situation where cyclists are in the way instead of part of the normal users.

Back on subject, certainly every time I've heard of this happening *at a junction* it has been people coming up the inside of a stopped truck, then getting squashed and dragged. On normal roads it's simply poor overtaking by the lorry driver. At junctions it should be completely avoidable by the cyclist hanging back behind the lorry. With such long vehicles it's suicidal to try to scoot up the sides to the ASL if it exists.

The amount of people on this site who were up in arms about being forced to use a cycle lane which would slow them down on their ultra fast commute to work on their carbon exotica. How can you protect people who dont want to be protected?

It's not that people don't want to be protected. It's the issue of being forced to use a wholly inadequate and poorly designed bit of cycle path. There are many paths on my commute which I simply won't use cos they're MORE dangerous than just riding on the road and being as visible as possible.
Lanes that spit me out into the middle of a line of left turning traffic at a junction, one lane with a steeply dropped kerb in it, lanes filled with broken glass/drainage covers etc, lanes so marrow it's impossible to overtake any other cyclist (or for them to overtake me), the list is endless.

I'm adult enough to make my own decisions about where to ride – if I choose to ride up the inside of a lorry/jump a set of lights I would accept the consequences. Being FORCED to ride on something which I consider unsafe is a different kettle of fish and one which I won't accept.

It's not that people don't want to be protected. It's the issue of being forced to use a wholly inadequate and poorly designed bit of cycle path. There are many paths on my commute which I simply won't use cos they're MORE dangerous than just riding on the road and being as visible as possible.

Too right. The main cyclepath on my route to work is simply a bit of wide footpath painted to become a cyclepath. Try telling the kids walking to the school it runs past that its a cycle path!
It's so ridiculous I'd take a photo, but I might get arrested!

All cycling deaths are tragic, no doubt.

I'll echo some of the comments above though – cyclists need to be aware that HGVs and buses are dangerous things due to the drivers lack of visibility and the scale of them. Avoid passing one unless absolutely necessary. Everyday on my commute through Edinburgh I see people sitting waiting on the inside of large vehicles at traffic lights and wonder if they realise the danger they are in.

Part of me also wonders if the correct reaction to a death like this is a petition publicising it. It's a fact that more cyclists on the road makes it safer for everyone. This petition may do the job of putting people off commuting by bike?

This petition may do the job of putting people off commuting by bike?

They need to be aware of the dangerous parts so they can make an informed decision and make sure they don't do that. Otherwise it's like giving someone a driving license without telling them that they need to stop at red lights. Sure they'll work it out in the end…

I know of very few cycle lanes that have been designed for use by cyclist rather than being token gestures to demonstrate cycling friendliness. A little bit of tolerance and politeness would go a long way IMO towards making shared use of roads less problematic.
Anyway in west London you can't really use cycle lanes as apparently they're actually specially marked parking spaces.

I'm of the belief that there is no safe way to overtake an HGV. The BBC news site had a feature last week advising folk to overtake on the right.

I'd prefer to see advice recommending that you always stay behind an HGV. By advising people to overtake on the right, they're ignoring the fact that an HGV will usually have to swing right in order to make a left turn, which means they'll either hit the cyclist or force them into the path of oncoming traffic.

I'd prefer to see advice recommending that you always stay behind an HGV

Bloody hell, I'd never get to work if I did that!

RHSno2 – well done for the plug

don't forget to visit http://www.seemesaveme.com if you want to get involved in an action group

previous thread

coffeeking/crazy legs/dezb Thank you for backing up my point 🙂

You will note that at no point did i even metion the standard or benefit of the cycle lanes in my post but you still jumped to the conclusion that you are adult enough to make my own decisions about where to ride – if I choose to ride up the inside of a lorry/jump a set of lights I would accept the consequences.

Absolutely 100% the point i was trying to make. You cannot legislate for mistakes and you cannot legislate for people who deem themselves to be adult enough to make their own decisions.

As i said, we are pretty much at a balance of deaths against sheer numbers of traffic now. Unless of course we should ban all cyclists from the road, i suppose that may reduce the number of deaths 😉

TLH –

The amount of people on this site who were up in arms about being forced to use a cycle lane which would slow them down on their ultra fast commute to work on their carbon exotica. How can you protect people who dont want to be protected?

…Insinuates that the the road users are somehow wrecklessly choosing not to use something that would save them, in some mad rush to get to work. This simply isn't the case, and the comments regarding carbon exotica and ultra-fast are utterly irrelevant if your point was simply that people will choose to do what they feel is best. My point is that what other people think is best for me isn't necessarily, yes this proves the your point (if I choose not to read between the lines of it).

Insinuates that the the road users are somehow wrecklessly choosing not to use something that would save them, in some mad rush to get to work. This simply isn't the case, and the comments regarding carbon exotica and ultra-fast are utterly irrelevant if your point was simply that people will choose to do what they feel is best.

You will note that i reffered to previous threads where i assure you the comments coming back were that peeps were not willing to interrupt their training (A lot of people use their commutes as training) on their ultra bling road bikes that get punctures so easily by using the provided cycle tracks/lanes. The point was very relevant about the exotica and ultra fast as it tends to be the serious cyclist who actually objects to being told where to ride. The lady going to the shops is quite happy to trundle along on the cycle path (In general). The other relevance is that the op makes mention of these deaths being experienced cyclists which reitterates my point.

My point is that what other people think is best for me isn't necessarily, yes this proves the your point (if I choose not to read between the lines of it). You seem to think i dissagree with this. I dont, however i understand that this also goes hand in hand with being unable to improve on current death rates. The only way they can be improved upon is by draconion measures which you have already displayed you are unable to accept.

As a commuter and HGV driver I can only say If you put a driver on a bike he would not put himself in any of the dangerous road positions adopted by a large number of commuters, it's about knowledge and experience. People need educating and then if they choose to ignore this it is their decision. Sit a cyclist in a wagon around a city centre and see what he has to contend with they may just get some understanding then. I think I saw aprogram where they got a class of school children in the area of a wagon blind spot! As for passing on the outside as soon as you overlap the trailer you have no idea what direction the wagon is going you are not going fast enough to pass the length safely. If you choose to pass make sure you can see the driver in the mirrors spend as little time in his blind spot as possible. Lastly left hand drive wagons can make passing even more dangerous look at the number plate and act accordingly.

As for passing on the outside as soon as you overlap the trailer you have no idea what direction the wagon is going you are not going fast enough to pass the length safely.

Totally.

here's the feature on the BBC site. I think this advice is downright dangerous.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/8296971.stm

sturmey- good points

sturmy, boardingbob, euanr: Why do you assume the danger comes from cyclists overtaking HGVs??
I'm sure it's the other way round (it is in my experience) where the biggest danger lies.
And you cannot ride assuming that everything is going to hit you. ie. stop when an HGV goes past. Not in the real world.

That BBC article is advocating overtaking them at traffic lights.

Problems with that:

A) You don't know what way the lorry is going

B) You may not make it past the lorry before the lights change

C) The driver may not see you

Lots of good points.

The closest I've come to death on a bike was riding back to Inverness along the busy side of Loch Ness. A double-trailered logging lorry overtook me on a nice, clear, straight bit of road. When the first trailer had passed me, he started to pull back in – perhaps he wasn't used to having a double trailer? I could see what was about to happen and managed to hop sideways onto the pavement – the kerb was about six inches high and I was lucky to manage it, given the angle.

The trailer actually bounced off the kerb as I landed – the lady passenger in the car following had her hand over her mouth and looked (quite rightly!) horrified. I made frantic phoning gestures and she nodded and pulled out her mobile. No idea if she ever did phone, or what came of it – I was too shaken up to notice the plate…

Without boasting, I'm sure most roadies / commuters would struggle to pull off a 6" bunnyhop sideways onto a pavement and would have ended up squashed.

That BBC article is advocating overtaking them at traffic lights.

Problems with that:

A) You don't know what way the lorry is going
Erm are lorry made from merc/bmw/audi/golf that they don't come with indicators?

B) You may not make it past the lorry before the lights change

True but then if you know where the lorry is going you don't overtake undertake where the lorry is going.

C) The driver may not see you

Now that is another problem.

When I almost get hit this morning would have the lorry driver drove accordingly to the highway code it wouldn't have happened.

I was already half way through the trailer (at this point I had pointed my head light to the mirror) when without looking the driver put his indicator and start overtaking the bin lorry.
I was lucky no one was on the other side of the road. Otherwise, juan jam…

dezb its not about aportioning blame its understanding each others requirments to travel on the road safely. If the driver can see you he can manouvre accordingly if you are out of site it becomes a problem.

Not sure if cycle lanes help with these lorry accidents. Often the cycle lane is on the left leading up to an advanced stop line (precisely where you shouldn't be).

Around here, the cycle lanes don't even do that. When it gets to a junction, the cycle lane just ends and says "Cyclists Dismount".

And in any case, most research suggests experienced cyclists are better off on the road where you cross far less side roads. Think its called vehicular cycling or something.

And also, going "fast" on a bike is still only 20mph. If its to be a viable alternative to a car, theres nothing wrong with wanting to do that providing its safe. as far as i'm aware most cyclists killed by lorries are relatively inexperienced and not travelling quickly.

Juan whilst overtaking a lorry it indicates to turn left. Can you see the wagons left hand indicator if think not. As for over taking the bin lorry before you started over taking could you see down the nearside to see if there were any stationary vehicles? As a wagon driver I would expect to pull round stationary obsticles, not have to stop and then pull round trying to build up speed again. Read the road, you are taught on your test to make prorgess.

Hmmm,

So this is what they're advocating, first of all (speaking as a Driver) if a bike pulled around my like the image on the right shows I would assume they were turning right (in this case wrongly) this in it’s self is dangerous, as other road users wind up with an incorrect idea of your intentions.

The other thing I notice is the HGV driver in the RH image has very considerately left an extra car length; I’d love to find a driver who left this amount of space on the off chance a cyclist may wish to overtake them….

To be honest every time you try to make hard and fast rules for cyclists when dealing with traffic, there will be far more exceptions than intended, Assess each junction and roundabout and position yourself as best you can, I find Cycle lanes a mixture some are great, as far as they go, but you seldom encounter a useful stretch of more than 200 metres which then normally deposits the rider on the wrong side of the street, next to a junction…

The fact of the matter is that while people try and fairly apportion blame to either party and point out Women’s generally more cautious cycling style (can you really blame them?), cyclists in general are treated like second class citizens on our roads, all because as a society we have a massive hard on for the internal combustion engine and all that comes with it… It’s all symptomatic of the increasing “Clarksonisation” of our roads.

To me it seems ridiculous that you can blame cyclists who obey the rules of the road and do not wanting to unnecessarily get in the way of other vehicles, I understand what the statistics are saying, but the fact still stands that cyclists who obeyed the rules so were obviously “Educated” in the “proper” way to cycle on a public road, and didn’t jump lights or take up extra road space were killed through no fault of their own, because of poor road layout and driver awareness.

Can't be arsed to read all this but my method would be using the approach from the left method hop onto the pavement, you might even have to get off but unlikely then cross the road. lorry drivers need more help seeing people, i have never drove a truck but can larger mirrors not be used.

Sorry sturmey I will try to make my point clear.

First bin lorry. Then a car. Then the lorry who almost crashed me. So I was going to overtake the last lorry.
Overtaking bin lorry isn't an issue as they usually stop, and are the most courteous vehicle.
Plus I shal quote the "code de la route". Only overtake when it's safe to do so.
Before over taking, control in your mirrors and buy turning your head (to cover your blind spot) that no one is overtaking you. Then indicate your are going to overtake by switching on your indicator. Then control again and proceed with the overtaking maneuver.

Had the driver done all that, he would have notice a moving Xmas tree in his mirror on the left (remember I am in France here) that was overtaking it.

It’s all symptomatic of the increasing “Clarksonisation” of our roads.

Amen