“The risk may well be similar, but the resultant damage is more serious when travelling at a higher speed. Regardless, it’s all personal preference, the fact people don’t wear them on the pavement is totally redundant when talking about cycling imo“

Of course it’s personal preference, but the preference is really one of whether you prefer best-available statistics or baseless preceonceptions.

Fatality rates for pedestrians in RTCs (that’s road traffic collisions on the carriageway and the footway and on crossings, not trips and slips) are higher per mile than for cyclists. In other words, walking from your house to the station carries more risk (in broad statistical terms) of death. Note also that the rates of head injury in KSIs for pedestrians, cyclists and car occupants are almost identical, from which one might reasonably deduce two things: that a helmet is of equivalent value in each of these modes, and that this value is low (or you might deduce that there is a high head injury risk differential for cycling *and* this is mirrored to a near-exact magnitude by the use of helmets, but that would be quite a long bet).

This returns to a point previously made, about safety not being a factor when pedestrians decide on their route: people are naturally inclined and socially conditioned to view walking as being of negligible risk. Whereas they have more of a natural inclination and far, *far* more social conditioning to view cycling as risky.

So, no, the fact that people don’t wear them when walking certainly isn’t totally redundant in the context of cycling. It’s quite relevant in that it shines a light on the decisions that people are making, and those decisions—which are heavily influenced by social conditioning—often tend to be based on the idea that once you sling your leg over a bicycle you’re at much greater risk than you were before. The key question is: Where is the evidence for that, in and of itself, as the compelling differentiator?

Yes, sorry, because I agree with the general point that it’s not dangerous, and I expect this is probably the only one ever, and is clearly completely atypical

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1421135/Road-rage-driver-reversed-over-child-in-bicycle-buggy.html

Yes, sorry, because I agree with the general point that it’s not dangerous, and I expect this is probably the only one ever, and is clearly completely atypical

Christ, and two years in jail for that seems fairly lenient. As you say though, not so much a typical road crash as an encounter with a damaged individual.

Christ, and two years in jail for that seems fairly lenient

quick google but couldn’t find out what he actually served, bet it wasn’t 2 years tho. Fairly lenient driving ban (and a haulier ban that ran concurrently I think) 🙄

I don’t tend to use the cyclepaths around where I live because –

A. they are very badly designed – 20m then stop for side road, etc.
B. they are normally littered with broken glass/other shit.

However, I have ridden on some great paths – like the disused railway that runs from Chester into North Wales.

People will use cycle paths if they are fit for purpose. If you go to the Netherlands, people automatically use cycle paths because they are safe, well maintained, and crucially, they are just as direct and efficient than the road network (sometimes more direct and efficient than the route available to the car).

People don’t ignore cycle paths in this country because they are stupid or awkward, but because the cycle paths don’t deliver what they need. I use bits of my local cycle paths, but I would struggle to identify any of the routes that I could effectively use in its entirety. They always fail at some point because they are not maintained or gritted, riskier, don’t go where I want to go, or are simply slower.

For what it’s worth, the only place I have been run down by a car was while cycling on a cycle and pedestrian path, completely separated from the road (and I was using lights, high viz jacket and a helmet at the time). So anectodally, I’ve found cycle paths to be much more dangerous than cycling on the road…!

“For what it’s worth, the only place I have been run down by a car was while cycling on a cycle and pedestrian path, completely separated from the road (and I was using lights, high viz jacket and a helmet at the time). So anectodally, I’ve found cycle paths to be much more dangerous than cycling on the road…!”

odd that – moi aussi …..

sprayed my self across the bonnet of an audi who just didnt look before driving into his drive at speed from the other side of the road.

Just to follow that theme my worst bike accident was on a segregated path, too. Hit a pothole damaging myself and writing off the frame.

OP’s gone quiet 🙄

I wonder what Samurai’s stats would look like if pro-rata’d by total time spent in each activity?

I wonder what Samurai’s stats would look like if pro-rata’d by total time spent in each activity?

I’m also fairly sure that his stats would look less good when you take into account that in a bike or pedestrian interface with a car, the car is recorded as as the cause, as per his stats title. The cycling and walking category is reserved for when you cock up without vehicle assistance. And before anyone asks, I’ll find the source of that (we’ve been here before) when not fiddling about on a little screen.

No still here,

There are a lot of well stated points and I’m not discounting any of them, I have no motive here at all and if anything have a much better understanding for the outlined issues.

The original post was not designed to cause insult etc although it does appear to have.

Perhaps I might drop the car a few days a week 8)

I stopped using them when it became obvious that they’re simply there as extra parking spaces for morons.

When raised with the council (ie, why aren’t you doing something about this?) the response was “if they don’t park there they’ll park on the road!”.

In Denmark you by law as a cyclist you have to use the cycle path if there is one. But that’s not a problem as they are well designed and maintained. The most important thing is that the path is treated like a road lane so drivers on side roads need to give way.
In the UK unless I stop and every side junction I feel more vulnerable on the path than on the adjacent road. 95% of bike lanes on roads are even more dangerous, suddenly stopping when the road narrows just when you need it the most.
Councils obviously have targets for X miles of cycle paths / lanes and just squeeze them in wherever they can without any regard to usability. I’d like to see some being tried for manslaughter due to the dangerous designs.

Having cycled all over the UK touring, my main reasons for not using cycle paths are;

Didnt know they were there (no signs on road telling me cycle path adjacent or how to get to it)
Dont know where it goes (not joining a cycle path only to find veers off in the wrong direction)
No access (if im on the road how do i get on a segragated path? often it means stopping in the middle of the road, often on the exit of a roundabout, to turn off while navigating barriers and cars charging at you, often more risky than just staying on the road)
Not linked (short section which is difficult to join and then dumps you back on the road, may as well stay on it).

Having grown up and still cycling where the OP has quoted his ‘death roads’…

The A1061 Blyth – Cramlington (fatalitys)
Yep, a big wide clear road that people do 80mph, the cycle path along most of it is very good. However the access onto it from Cramlington end is woeful, often i cycle up the dual section and only join the cyclepath where it turns to single carriageway. Also, once across the railway crossing heading east, the cyclepath is nothing more than a rebranded footpath, the traffic is slower by this point so road is much nicer to cycle on.

A193 Blyth – Seaton Sluice (fatalities)
What cycle path alternative? it may be tarmac by the links but its a muddy gravel track north of there. I take that route on my cross bike, useless if youve got a road bike.

A190 Seaton Sluice – Seaton Deleval
The main avenue section yes, there is a nice path. Crappy once you reach the end section of the avenue, where it puts you on the rebranded (narrow) footpath and dumps you on the road at Deleval end.

So yes, the 3 roads all have very good cycle paths in part, but anyone coming upto them will find the road they just left was easier to navigate and smoother, so might not get to ‘the good bit’ that is there. And the roads in question should be safe as they link into small towns, why should we suddenly need to leap off them!?

So yes, the 3 roads all have very good cycle paths in part, but anyone coming upto them will find the road they just left was easier to navigate and smoother, so might not get to ‘the good bit’ that is there. And the roads in question should be safe as they link into small towns, why should we suddenly need to leap off them!?

again im not telling you to leap off them, you have stated why you don’t use them and i can accept that, pint taken, im not on a high horse here and im always open to correction.
The roads should be safe yes, bur as has already been covered there are many poor drivers. not saying that you should have to move because of this either and i dont condone bad drivers.

Sorry, that was a metaphorical ‘we’, not aimed at you. I think a lot of people on bikes tho are just that, people on bikes. Just as drivers pay no attention and dont see outside their small view on the world (as in, just drive whats in front of them, no thought to alternative routes etc.) then i think a lot of people on bikes are like that. Grab bike (lights or not), Go – do not stop to look around or employ thought.

there are many poor drivers

So change that, not the cyclists who are doing it right.

One way to get more better, more understanding drivers is to get them to spend time riding bikes (and ideally driving vans & trucks too). Too many drivers have no experience and therefore no empathy of any other form of road use.

Am I too late to join in? Has anyone pointed out that cycle paths are mostly a bit crap? 🙂

Have a short ride to nursery with my boy on the back of the bike and reckon it’s a damn sight safer negotiating junctions and roundabouts on the roads where car drivers actually expect you to be. Also has the added benefit of avoiding the game of driveway Russian roulette you get when the “cycle path” is just a line on the pavement.

STATO – Member

Sorry, that was a metaphorical ‘we’, not aimed at you. I think a lot of people on bikes tho are just that, people on bikes. Just as drivers pay no attention and dont see outside their small view on the world (as in, just drive whats in front of them, no thought to alternative routes etc.) then i think a lot of people on bikes are like that. Grab bike (lights or not), Go – do not stop to look around or employ thought.

yes, you have put into words more or less what i was trying to put across (however badly i have done so) granted the ranty nature of my posy may not have helped.

When I’m on my bike I don’t care about the risk of head injuries to those that are walking, I care about the possibility of a head injury to me whilst cycling.

I understand the comparisons, but they mean sweet bugger all. The risk of head injury to cyclists is the only stat that matters when on a bike, the rest is utterly irrelevant.

The stats above are pretty much useless in the sense that the causes of accidents are reported, in the main, as being car related if it involves one.

I maintain that anyone riding without a helmet on the road probably doesn’t need one.

Don’t forget the head injury stats bear no relation whatsoever to how many people wear helmets, or whether wearing a helmet would make any difference.

Wearing a helmet while riding a motorbike is Mandatory in Germany.

I understand the comparisons, but they mean sweet bugger all. The risk of head injury to cyclists is the only stat that matters when on a bike, the rest is utterly irrelevant.

No, because if it were shown that cycling is much more dangerous than walking, you might choose to walk instead.

No, because the risk of head injury doesn’t tell you anything in itself about the benefit of wearing a helmet, which is a highly controversial topic.

Generally, people avoid cycle paths/lanes because they’ve been so poorly thought out that they either don’t promote good (cycle) traffic flow, or are downright dangerous.

Examples include…

This – Why lead the cyclists off the road at all, when merging back in with the trafffic is far more dangerous than staying in amongst it?
This Why interrupt the cycle lane (on the shared use path) for the bus stop, when simply swapping the cycle/pedestrian sections to the opposite haves of the path would have allowed the cycle half to continue unimpeded?
This -Coming up from the subway on the bottom left, the cycle path takes the sensible, wide, route, which reduces blind spots nicely, but then stop abruptly at the top of the slope and forces cyclist/pedestrains to swap sides (resulting in an awkward “will they/won’t they?” dance) – straight into the path of a bus shelter. (Another conflict that could have been avoided, simply by keeping the cycle path on the same side)

It is all a great shame, really, as I’m convinced it does more to put people off commuting, than it does to encourage them.

Cyclist without lights are just trying to prove that Darwin was right.

As for Helmets, that argument will rage on for eternity – I’m relatively happy for people to make their own mind up on that one.

Cyclists have no chance when they are so hostile and intolerant towards each other. No wonder so many drivers have such a low opinion of us.

Having only read some of this thread. I must say I found many of the comments absolutely abhorrent. Cyclists (I presume) are whinging here about other cyclists perfectly legal behavior, calling them idiots for choosing not to wear a helmet or simply riding legally on roads, hinting that they deserve all they get for not having bright enough lights and even making assumptions as to why they cycle and even the cost of their bicycles. And yet not one of them seems to be doing anything about their grievances. is this really how folk feel? are some of you honestly this selfish or is it just internet bravado?

A few weeks ago at around dusk I was driving with my kids along a local stretch of tree lined and shaded A road and there was a guy towing a tag-a-long positioned to turn right towards some farm cottages. He was dressed all in black and the tag-a-long and bike were black and grey. (I tend to notice this kind of thing) He had no lights or reflectives and despite being right in the middle of the road was very difficult to see. Luckily I did see him so slowed down to let him turn. Thinking about how difficult it had been to see him I then also turned in to stop and warn him of how difficult it had just been to see him.
turned out the guy was very grateful and went on to explain he’d just dropped his daughter off in the nearby village, realised it was getting dark but had no idea it had been that difficult to see him. We had a quick chat about lights and reflectives where I mentioned cheap LED lights to him. pretty sure we both parted feeling happier.

Win Win. really.

If you can find the time to bitch online about the behavior of a fellow cyclist after the fact, you can certainly find the time to help them if you truly believe them to be in serious danger.

I see it everyday in Bristol too. Bristol City Council and South Glos Council spent millions creating a cycling utopia (cycle paths completely separate from the road) and yet some Muppets continue to ride around the ring road.

hmm thats what bugs me the millions spent – but I’m still not getting the utopia..

Was speaking to Mrs DoD the other day on how the ring road paths are probably the best bit but then everything else is a bit crap…

A few weeks ago at around dusk I was driving with my kids along a local stretch of tree lined and shaded A road and there was a guy towing a tag-a-long positioned to turn right towards some farm cottages. He was dressed all in black and the tag-a-long and bike were black and grey. (I tend to notice this kind of thing) He had no lights or reflectives and despite being right in the middle of the road was very difficult to see. Luckily I did see him so slowed down to let him turn. Thinking about how difficult it had been to see him I then also turned in to stop and warn him of how difficult it had just been to see him.
turned out the guy was very grateful and went on to explain he’d just dropped his daughter off in the nearby village, realised it was getting dark but had no idea it had been that difficult to see him. We had a quick chat about lights and reflectives where I mentioned cheap LED lights to him. pretty sure we both parted feeling happier.

Win Win. really.

Unless you genuinely are the nicest person in the entire world (and smell of cookies and cream ice cream or have a quite incredible cleavage) I guarantee this is not how the vast majority of ‘friendly advice’ conversations will go. Wave down the next commuter cyclist you see (preferably in the rain, always in the best mood and most receptive in the rain) without lights and repeat your little chat and see how it goes. Please report back.

So lets take this in a different direction now then, what can be done to make things better in the UK for us all as a collective??

What small changes can we all make that can have a positive impact for the masses??

Of course as far as cycle paths etc go this is most likely tackled form a local council level (i know very little of the politics involved) but how can this be influenced?

There are most certainly a lot of valid opinions in this thread now so how do we all make them count?

Unless you genuinely are the nicest person in the entire world (and smell of cookies and cream ice cream or have a quite incredible cleavage) I guarantee this is not how the vast majority of ‘friendly advice’ conversations will go. Wave down the next commuter cyclist you see (preferably in the rain, always in the best mood and most receptive in the rain) without lights and repeat your little chat and see how it goes. Please report back.

I have to say i do agree with the above this is most likely not going to work in most cases…….

I talk to strangers in real life all the time..
the above was just one example, not a one off.

but well done for dismissing something you personally don’t have the social skills to do or have simply never tried.

I talk to strangers in real life all the time..

Well done you. That must make you the exception to the rule, because literally no one does this ever*.

but well done for dismissing something you personally don’t have the social skills to do or have simply never tried.

Then you say this, which I’m afraid shows you probably aren’t all that. Do you really actually spend much time with people or do you just like the theory? 😉 Give it a go though – if you can spend the evening flagging down and making cheery suggestions to passing commuting cyclists about their lighting choices (without the safety of a day glow police jacket on) and don’t meet at least one ingret who wants to stove your face in you have missed you calling as a hostage negotiator!

*this may actually be true if you are from London.

a Cyclist? stove my face in… ahhhh ha ha ha ha… 😆

ingrates I can deal with

Cyclists have no chance when they are so hostile and intolerant towards each other. No wonder so many drivers have such a low opinion of us.

And then you go onto be……..

So lets take this in a different direction now then, what can be done to make things better in the UK for us all as a collective??

Drive with consideration for other road users. Realise that other road users have just as much of a right to be on the road as you. Realise that your journey is no more important than anyone else’s. Realise that you are the traffic. Take a chill pill, enjoy the view and take a few minutes longer to get where you’re going and you’ll feel much better!

And then you go onto be……..

intolerant of the selfish

So lets take this in a different direction now then, what can be done to make things better in the UK for us all as a collective??

What small changes can we all make that can have a positive impact for the masses??

Of course as far as cycle paths etc go this is most likely tackled form a local council level (i know very little of the politics involved) but how can this be influenced?

There are most certainly a lot of valid opinions in this thread now so how do we all make them count?

Ride your bike to work and round town. The more people that are seen riding, the better.

Write to your MP, MSPs, local Councillor and your Council to report infrastructure problems or suggest improvements, in exactly the same way you would for any other local issue.

Contact your local cycling campaign group, if you have one, or the CTC or British Cycling nationally.

Ride your bike to work and round town. The more people that are seen riding, the better.

This, totally. Go down the shops on your bike, use your bike for simple journeys, don’t dress like a storm trooper or a building worker when you do it. Normal clothes, normal bike. Make it look as normal as driving a car to go down the shops. It is public perception that needs to change, then the rest will come.

Ride your bike to work and round town. The more people that are seen riding, the better.

Yep. Overwhelmingly, the thing that will make us all safer is more bums on saddles.