Which basically leaves us with the Green Party

Yes that was my point. I’ve voted green in all elections for the past few years but I’m under no illusions about the chances of them gaining any real power or influence. Now if the unions dumped labour and re-directed their significant financial and campaigning power towards the greens it might be different…

Which basically leaves us with the Green Party, or maybe the Libs (although I think the Greens will have more influence).

Well last week the SNP seemed to be making vague promises of a move into broad sunlit socialist uplands, but only in an independant Scotland.

Perhaps they could be persuadd to move their border south by about 400 miles.

vague promises of a move into broad sunlit socialist uplands,

No, they weren’t…

anagallis_arvensis – Member
Its not even close to comparable given the reasons I pointed out above. Show me some data for a profession that requires a post graduate qualification where people are in post and then leave.
Teaching doesnt relate to my masters or my PhD but thats not the point.

That is quite an ask given the very specialised nature of the teaching profession.

vague promises of a move into broad sunlit socialist uplands,

No, they weren’t…

Damn…. if only you’d said that earlier, I wouldn’t have voted “yes”. 😀

A big load of complaints earlier were from Police unhappy with a Scottish police structure the SNP created so pull the other one an iScotland would have been a great place.

As for teachers they are like soldiers you only have to worry when they stop moaning. Lots of the complaints about teaching seem little different from those 20+ years ago. Okay paperwork may have gone up, but I expect the roofs don’t leak so much etc., so Pro’s and Con’s.

Modern management.

I’m an engineer, so ‘postgrad’ thats:
* a masters (lets not argue over undergrad masters not being postgrad, it’s not much different to doing a PGCE)
* getting chartered
* probably doing another more specialist masters at some point down the line.

Yes, but you don’t need a specific qualification to be an engineer. Not really the same as teaching.

Yes, but you don’t need a specific qualification to be an engineer. Not really the same as teaching.

You don’t need any qualifications to teach in a private school.

I was looking at Paramedic vacancies in Surrey just to see if it was an option for a career change. They are paying up to 27k for an experienced person. It’s just not enough especially considering the work involved. I can understand why people are leaving, it’s always been the way in the NHS, Teaching and other care roles that the people setting the wages seem to think that working people ought to be selfless when in fact after tax 27k barely covers the rent and as for a mortgage well, you’d never get one.

You don’t need any qualifications to teach in a private school.

Trivially true.

Dragon if the ‘moans’ were the same 20 years ago, today’s situation would have prevailed then, and it didn’t. Most people I know who are completely hacked off with the management of schools and teachers are also really conscientious and committed to their students. The experience and commitment of these people is bleeding away from the service.

s – Member

You don’t need any qualifications to teach in a private school.

Trivially true.

Its also true that you can teach unqualified in state schools thanks to mr gove. But the data was about qualified teachers so that doesnt matter.

My other half works for the NHS (radiography) and has seen the same mass exodus lately.

Thats because 1. Acute funding has been reduced in real terms, so Trusts can not afford to employ enough staff to keep up with demand.

2. Any qualified provider has allowed private companies to bid for NHS work. They can undercut the NHS as they can request FOI’s which give them the exact costs.

3. NHS staff are moving to private companies as they will pay more. The Private co will pay more becuase of # 2 above, plus the fact they have not had to incur the costs of training all the staff as the NHS has done it for them.

So its gorvernment policy which is leading to exodus.

Whatever happened to the positive Drac ?

After yesterday he’s on annual leave.

I work for a private company and we have had 11 resignations in the last 3 weeks in just the office I work in.

Main reason is the job market has picked up, and a lot of people have been thinking about changing jobs but weren’t happy to due to the recession; however now things are looking up people are starting to move around again.

Other half is with police Scotland. Last three shifts she was meant to finish at 4pm earliest she was back was 7pm, then 10pm then 1.45am. She’s not finished a shift on time for 3 months. Is working solo and is frequently the only CID officer between. Dalkeith and the border.

work for a private company and we have had 11 resignations in the last 3 weeks in just the office I work in.

Main reason is the job market has picked up, and a lot of people have been thinking about changing jobs but weren’t happy to due to the recession; however now things are looking up people are starting to move around again.

Wooosh!

ransos – Member

Yes, but you don’t need a specific qualification to be an engineer. Not really the same as teaching.

1st step – get BEng degree, some (not many) companies/disciplines will take you on with this.
2nd step – get MEng, generaly as a continuation of the BEng. This is typicaly the minimum requirement for most engineering jobs and getting chartered. Getting chartered with a BEng is much harder as you’re required to submit the equivelnt of a masters thesis.
3rd step – get chartered with your profesional engineering institution. At this point you become usefull.
4th step – if you want to work in some other countries you’ll need to hold the qualification of “professional engineer”, this is yet another set of exams.
And the list goes on, plenty of people go and do another masters in something specific like safety/risk, petroleum, pharma, etc. Holding a MEng, MSc and a MA isn’t uncommmon amongst the managers.

So yea, engineers don’t need specific qualifications!

I’m not talking about the British Gas Engineer who come’s to fit your boiler.

Much better than wwaswas but were are talking about people leaving teaching, not those going to other schools or private schools. Define “some” and we can talk.

I think it’s well over the 40% mark, there’s a big drain on engineering graduates going into finance/banking. From some uni’s more than others, IIRC from the london universities is the majority!

To be fair my cohort was a bad year, we enterd the market just after the crash and the financial sector was struggling so we probably recruited a lot of people for who’m engineering was a 2nd choice of what to do with their engineering degree and left once the financial sector picked up again. But crucuialy, I know people who did the same with teaching, the government actively encouraged it with “teach first”.

Ah yes Teach First, I know a few who did that and realised (a) teaching little sh*ts is no fun, (b) it’s quite boring and (c) they can earn more and have better careers elsewhere.

1st step – get BEng degree, some (not many) companies/disciplines will take you on with this.
2nd step – get MEng, generaly as a continuation of the BEng. This is typicaly the minimum requirement for most engineering jobs and getting chartered. Getting chartered with a BEng is much harder as you’re required to submit the equivelnt of a masters thesis.
3rd step – get chartered with your profesional engineering institution. At this point you become usefull.
4th step – if you want to work in some other countries you’ll need to hold the qualification of “professional engineer”, this is yet another set of exams.

Not true in all of Engineering, I’ve got a 25 year old BEng, no MSc, not chartered and have made it all the way to VP Engineering in several companies. One of the best and highest paid Engineers I’ve had working for me didn’t even have a degree and he was on a 6 figure package. NB I’ve since jacked management in as it was pretty dull and now just hack VBA for a living (which is much more fun).

While there’s much in the world of HR that frustrates managers, having robust and fair recruitment processes isn’t one that causes me any problems. I’d rather pick from a diverse pool of talent than have to train someone that got the position because Daddy plays golf with the MD.

Being willing to work for a few weeks unpaid might demonstrate commitment and willingness to make sacrifices, but it also might just demonstrate that that person is fortunate enough to have a family that supports them financially, which is not, in my book, a good enough reason to give them the job over someone with bills to pay.

Unless that is you know, you work an evening job as well or live on benefits 😈 😆 . HR just causes inflexibility, there’s a bazillion technician jobs going right now and a lot of laboratories I’ve talked to complain that they can’t get the experience that they want and they can’t get youngsters in for work experience because HR won’t pay for the insurance.

Whoooooo!

3rd step – get chartered with your profesional engineering institution. At this point you become usefull.

That funny I work for a world-leading engineering consultancy, and yes, being chartered is useful in terms of career advancement, but there are hundreds of engineers here who get by perfectly well without chartership and probably do the majority of the work on projects so to say they’re not useful is just silly.

I’d question the MEng thing too. Again, it’s useful for career advancement but not essential to do the job.

That funny I work for a world-leading engineering consultancy

I could say the same thing, perhapse it’s a process engineering thing rather than more general. Either way there’s a definate ceiling above what was refered to in an e-mail accidentlay CC’d to us plebs as “bulk resource” which is hard to get through without it. And there’s an absolute requirement in order to be approved to sign off some documentation.

Anyway, that’s a distraction, the argument was agaisnt the idea that you didn’t need a specific qualification to be an engineering, when the reality was it’d be more, if not very, if not impossibly difficult without the right qualifications.

As I said tell me how many leave engineering and become something different and we can talk. We are not talking about people leaving Uni and thinking what the **** shall I do.

Ah yes Teach First, I know a few who did that and realised (a) teaching little sh*ts is no fun, (b) it’s quite boring and (c) they can earn more and have better careers elsewhere.

teach first since it was started has recruited around 2000 AFAIK I also think their retention is higher than others so its a drop in ocean really.
Mind you anyone who thinks teaching is boring is either really, really not suited or wired up wrong. Its many things but its never boring.

All of which misses the point that fireman, police, teachers, ambulance people are all trained and a great expense by the government, get in post and then piss off and teachers are in short supply. Its a massive waste of money.

School my niece used to work at is going down the NHS route. They can’t get staff in the Uk so they are looking to recruit newly qualified teachers from Spain.

Meanwhile niece is quite happy working as a private tutor, cramming kids for their maths GCSEs. Its teaching but without all the shit (apparently).

There is no shortage of qualified teachers in the UK. Just a shortage of those prepared to do the work for the price the government is willing to pay. I image it will become the same with paramedics/firemen etc. etc.

Always been a lot of people wanting to be firemen, is that changing? Well some are leaving but easy to replace?

All of which misses the point that fireman, police, teachers, ambulance people are all trained and a great expense by the government, get in post and then piss off and teachers are in short supply. Its a massive waste of money.

This is because these are “vocations”. You don’t do it the for the money. Or so the government (of whatever political persuasion) believe.

Contrast this with the treatment of MPs and senior civil servants. They have to be given a good remuneration to attract the right quality of candidate away from the lucrative private sector (or something like that).

Well last week the SNP seemed to be making vague promises of a move into broad sunlit socialist uplands, but only in an independant Scotland.

Another Salmond lie. Everyone knows the sun never shines in Scotland. 😉

There is no shortage of qualified teachers in the UK. Just a shortage of those prepared to do the work for the price the government is willing to pay. I image it will become the same with paramedics/firemen etc. etc.

I looked at the paramedic route ten years ago. £18k, with nowhere to go re. career path. I know there was a big change after my enquiries, but £27k? That’s still pretty awful, even if you ‘love the job’.

There is no shortage of qualified teachers in the UK. Just a shortage of those prepared to do the work for the price the government is willing to pay. I image it will become the same with paramedics/firemen etc. etc.

Of the teachers I know, it is much more to do with workload and stress than pay.

Mrs M has recently left teaching after 14 years due to the massive workload increase, unattainable targets and no management backup. At one point nearly half her school was running on supply teachers.

Even the “boil in the bag” teachers arriving off the production line are quitting, realising that the work/life balance is ridiculous.

There is no shortage of qualified teachers in the UK. Just a shortage of those prepared to do the work for the price the government is willing to pay. I image it will become the same with paramedics/firemen etc. etc.

Of the teachers I know, it is much more to do with workload and stress than pay.

The second point is very true, the first is less certain. Certain subjects like maths and science are short but even here (physics teachers aside…they are like rocking horse shit) you can get no end of people willing to give it a try but most are shite. I’ve been involved in recruiting where it comes down to we need someone to stand in front of the kids….. The wages are good enough to attract people, just not good ones. The fact that teach first seems to have people stay in teaching longer says a lot IMO.

Always been a lot of people wanting to be firemen, is that changing? Well some are leaving but easy to replace?

Lots of people want to be on X factor but many don’t make the grade.just because lots want to do the job doesn’t make them suitable for it. The quality of employees coming through has dropped, many are using it as a cv filler and gone in a few years. This is what the government want reduces the pension burden on them. The downside is there is a lot of very inexperienced firefighters on the shifts this does concern me greatly when it comes to dealing with incidents. But the government don’t care. It’s more important that the beans add up.

The wages are good enough to attract people, just not good ones.

So to attract and retain the good ones you need to pay more.

Apparently this works for city bankers and business executives.

So to attract and retain the good ones you need to pay more.

Apparently this works for city bankers and business executives.

OK I’m sold, where do I sign?

In truth its the work load mostly

I’m obviously out of touch, but 27k doesn’t sound too bad…

I’m obviously out of touch, but 27k doesn’t sound too bad…

5 years ago and outside of London.

As I said tell me how many leave engineering and become something different and we can talk

Counting through the people I know through starting work at the same time, 25% have left engineering entirely, 25% have gone off to do something else withing engineering, 30% are still in engineering consultancies, and 20% I haven’t the foggiest (the proportion I was neither friends with nor ‘friended’ on linkedin as they were staying in engineering).

Anyway, we didn’t need to talk as you put it, it was just pointing out that a 40% atrittion rate for a carrer wasn’t especialy high. Other careers have plenty of people start then decide a few years down the line it’s not for them and go and do something else.

OK I’m sold, where do I sign?

Just wait until I establish the People’s Democratic Republic of Wessex.

You can be the minister for education (Its an honorary post of course, as all the money will go on teachers).