CO2 production by electric cars

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  • CO2 production by electric cars
  • Edukator
    Member

    A European report has been relaesed on electric cars according to Europe 1 this morning. It states electric cars are half as polluting as ICE size for size over the lifetime of the vehicle.

    Europe 1 had asked Renault for comment. Renault pointed out the report was hard on electric cars as it didn’t take into account the latest recycling technology and the full life cycle of the batteries used initially in cars. It also assumed a higher proportion of fossill fuels than we have in France and than is likely to be present in Europe over the lifetime of a car bought now.

    Anyhow, even an unfavaourable analysis finds electric cars half as polluting globally and with insignificant levels of local pollution.

    In answer to some of the worst stuff on this thread:

    Wood burning is carbon neutral apart form processing and trnasport – in my case that’s electric chain saw and splitter and a wheel barrow.

    Brake dust from electric vehicles is a lot less than from ICE vehicles. Driving normally the road brakes only work below 5kmh because the 40kW (Zoé) of braking force available at even town driving speeds is all you need. Hybrids also benefit from this proportionally to how big their electric motor and charger is.

    It’s as cold in France as it gets in the UK at present, driving up to the mountains (as cold as anywhere in the UK yesterday) took about 5% off the range compared with Summer due to headlights and modest use of the heater. I charged the battery just before we left so it was warm enough not to lose capacity.

    Premier Icon ransos
    Subscriber

    The 2017 figures say 0.35156 kgCO2 / KWh (presumably an overall figure, including renewable) https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/greenhouse-gas-reporting-conversion-factors-2017

    A Tesla Model S has a 100KWh battery (add about 10% for charging inefficiency), and a range of 632km.
    So 110 * 0.35156 / 632 = 61 g/km

    Not quite. You need to add transmission and distribution losses to that figure, taking it to about 0.38, add I doubt the Tesla will achieve that range in the real world. Even so, we’re looking at a real world figure of say less than 80g CO2e/km which is way better than anything you’ll see from an IC car. And we all know that the reported CO2 average for new IC cars bears little relation to their actual performance.

    As an aside, there have been some very large decreases in grid carbon intensity over the last 2 years – I was using a factor of about 0.52 in 2015.

    Premier Icon ransos
    Subscriber

    Has anyone predicted an overall picture of how the grid / renewables / electricity metering will change to exploit all these EVs that will one day be plugged in?

    The primary issue is capacity. I’ve written on these pages before that mass converting car transport to EV will take a level of infrastructure that we’re not planning for at present.

    Edukator
    Member

    That’s why it’s refered to as “la transition énergétique” in France and “Energiewende” in Germany. I assume (would hope) there’s a British translation.

    We can build solar panels and windmills faster than we can build electric cars – Britain is the proof – check out the UK wind capacity over the past five years.

    gobuchul
    Member

    then the raw materials/ore is shipped (about the filthiest form of transportation we’ve been able to muster)

    Amazing. How is this conclusion reached?

    Shipping by the sea is by far the most fuel efficient way of transporting anything. Yes, an individual ship may appear “dirty” but the scale must be taken into account.

    The largest container ships carry around 40,000 truck loads.

    Everything we get from the Far East comes by container ship. The World Economy would grind to halt without them.

    wobbliscott
    Member

    I agree shipping is a necessary evil and the only option….but it isn’t clean. Slugging thousands of tons through water which is like trying to propel something through porridge. The CO2 per ton production will be out of the park compared to any other form of transport. But as you say, there are no other viable options to move the cargo around the world.

    Edukator
    Member

    Maritime transport per KM is the best in terms of CO2 but often results in very long Journeys which is why Decathlon reckon they produce less CO2 using rail transport from China to Europe.

    http://www.lavoixdunord.fr/266819/article/2017-11-20/decathlon-inaugure-une-liaison-ferroviaire-directe-avec-la-chine-qui-devrait

    Premier Icon ransos
    Subscriber

    We can build solar panels and windmills faster than we can build electric cars – Britain is the proof – check out the UK wind capacity over the past five years.

    Sure, but we need to do the following:
    1. Decarbonize existing supply
    2. Stop using gas
    3. Stop using IC cars
    4. Decomission the existing nuclear fleet

    Undoubtedly there’s a great deal more we can do on demand side, but nevertheless sufficient capacity is going to be enormously challenging

    Edukator
    Member

    Time to get on with it then. How much gas and electricity does your house consume, ransos?

    bluebird
    Member

    UK electricity is now more like 30% renewable.

    Serious question: is renewable the same as co2 neutral?

    Premier Icon ransos
    Subscriber

    Time to get on with it then. How much gas and electricity does your house consume, ransos?

    Quite a bit. It’s a consequence of not ruining people’s health by burning wood. 😉

    gobuchul
    Member

    The CO2 per ton production will be out of the park compared to any other form of transport.

    I’m not sure what you mean by this?

    Shipping is incredibly efficient per tonne transported and produces a lot less CO2 compared to moving the equivalent by road.

    Slugging thousands of tons through water which is like trying to propel something through porridge

    You’re not a naval architect are you? 🙂

    Edukator
    Member

    No, bluebird, just as electric cars aren’t CO neutral. But the CO emmitted per kWh is tiny compared with burning fossil fuels. A proportion of the embedded energy in cars, windmills and solar panels is from fossil fuels, and some of the conponents are derived from fossil fuels. Over the lifetime of the windmill it will produce many times more enregy than the embedded energy.

    If you have a bag of potatoes you can either eat them all, or plant enough of them to have more potatoes than you’ve ever had in the future.

    Edukator
    Member

    Go on, ransos, be specific about your bills and kms covered in your car (diesel or petrol?) and we’ll do some calculations on the health risks of me burning 2m3 of wood in an efficient stove, using no gas and producing more electricity than I use with your lifestyle.

    I’ve aimed at doing the best I can and still live a western lifestyle, we’ll see how that compares with someone making no effort and slagging anyone off who does with false arguments.

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Subscriber

    Even if electric cars are currently worse than ICEs, that will ONLY change if they become more prevalent. Recycling will become more economically attractive, and cheaper with scale economies. And there’ll be more EOL product to recycle. And the infrastructure will be created because there’ll be an opportunity to make money from it.

    So if we need to take a hit early on to establish the concept, then that’s fine, because we’ll benefit in the long term.

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Subscriber

    Re shipping – not as much friction as you think in water:

    [video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9eljYV50fk[/video]

    Premier Icon ransos
    Subscriber

    Go on, ransos, be specific about your bills and kms covered in your car (diesel or petrol?) and we’ll do some calculations on the health risks of me burning 2m3 of wood in an efficient stove, using no gas and producing more electricity than I use with your lifestyle.

    I was talking about national infrastructure and having what I thought was an interesting exchange, only for you to make it personal. I’ve no intention of disappearing down your rabbit hole, and if you can justify your cancer stove, then that’s fine with me.

    Toodle pip!

    Edukator
    Member

    It has to be personal because it’s all down to personal choices and slagging people off for making the right ones isn’t constructive.

    It is an interesting exchange, but whilst I’m happy for you to criticise the health implications of wood burning it’s hypocritical of you to do so whilst consuming electricity produced from gas and coal, and driving an ICE car which are not only a public health issue but also green housing the planet which burning wood that is replanted does not.

    Premier Icon phiiiiil
    Subscriber

    Even so, we’re looking at a real world figure of say less than 80g CO2e/km which is way better than anything you’ll see from an IC car.

    Also bear in mind that the Tesla is a massive boat of a car, so this is waaaaaaay better than anything of a similar size and power…

    squirrelking
    Member

    Wood burning is carbon neutral apart form processing and trnasport – in my case that’s electric chain saw and splitter and a wheel barrow.

    Only where you are growing at a similar rate to burning. Small caveat.

    And wood burning is only a concern where the air doesn’t move very much such as in towns and cities. Much like diesels in that respect.

    maxtorque
    Member

    phiiiiil
    Even so, we’re looking at a real world figure of say less than 80g CO2e/km which is way better than anything you’ll see from an IC car.
    Also bear in mind that the Tesla is a massive boat of a car, so this is waaaaaaay better than anything of a similar size and power…

    and, in the real world, thanks to short journeys, colds starts and poor driving (lots of braking) an ICE generally can’t get anywhere near the CO2 figure generated over the certification test cycles that include a nice warm 25degC start, and a smooth, relatively long distance drive cycle

    I’d suggest, that on average, drivers in the UK only get at best something like 75% of the certified consumption capability of their ICE
    (ie, the cert number is say 50mpg, you get a bit less than 40 as a year round average)

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Subscriber

    Also the g/km figure corresponds to the combined cycle fuel economy figure. If you only drive round down you’ll get 75% of the urban cycle figure (ish) which will be terrible.

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