We need some balance in this thread.

Keeping it real with Joe.

Keeping it real with Joe.

“He’d nowt but pluck and beginners luck and his mother’s washing line”

even the most basic belay plate will lock of its own accord if the rope(s) are in the right configuration

Which configuration is that?

“He’d nowt but pluck and beginners luck and his mother’s washing line

“His climbs were just like him. Short and hard.”

molgrips wrote:

What I am most worried about (at the wall at least) is accidentally letting go of the dead rope, or fumbling it. Especially if or when my kids end up learning to belay.

I agree with others – a grigri isn’t a substitute for learning to belay properly so that you don’t drop your partner. When belaying you don’t let go of the dead rope – and if kids are belaying and not competent to do it themselves then you have somebody who is competent tailing the rope. If you get into good habits then you don’t make mistakes with this. The reason for not using other backups as you suggest is that they would all get in the way when lead climbing – and ultimately that’s where the dangerous stuff happens, top roping should be and is very safe, you don’t even have to concentrate very hard to do that well.

Cougar wrote:

This is the bowline argument again.  A Gri-Gri is safer and ‘better’ in the right hands, but it’s also vastly easier to use incorrectly with hilarious consequences.

I belay with a GG, but (personally) unlike a bowline knot I’m confident in using it reliably, safely and consistently

Good point well made. Personally I’d consider using a grigri because you’re not confident with your belaying ability to be totally the wrong course of action – personally I’ve used a grigri, but wouldn’t consider teaching somebody using one, partly as I don’t know it well enough, but partly because it’s not the right way to learn to belay. One of my regular climbing partners does use one and she has her own valid reasons – though whilst it helps her confidence when lead belaying (and she’s held me on a fall below second clip with it) she can belay perfectly well with a normal device.

Anyway, for anybody thinking a grigri is anything close to fail safe should watch this from 3:40 and particularly from 5:10 (though the whole thing is worth watching).

(back on the original subject I note this is one of Petzl’s most publicised videos – check out how she is tied in).

“@aracer

“Personally I’m still using 25yo krabs…………”

I’d be a little cautious there for 2 reasons

firstly some krabs from around that time were extruded and bent hollow aluminium and were found to routinely fail in gate open loading (happens more than you think) – one brand I remember throwing away were oval Bonatti’s – look at a “modern’ krab and it is forged aluminium with the design beefing up the gate open strength

secondly for quickdraws somewhere I got the idea in my head that it is probably good practise to replace the krabs at the end you clip bolts with maybe every couple of years or so if climbing and falling a lot – believe that there have been failures attributed to the gouging of the relatively soft metal of  krabs by repeated falls

@molgrips firstly: This is not a recommended way to belay, it is just a demonstration of how even the simplest belay device can, given the right circumstances, “autolock”.

So, with a climber leading and the belayer stood on the floor with the rope coming downwards from leader through belay plate around the retaining screwgate, back out through belay plate and down to floor. The leader falls, firstly all the slack between climber and belayer is taken up then the rope begins to move through the plate at speed*. Because there’s some inherent friction between rope and device and there’s some weight to the rope on the floor, the device gets pulled back against the screwgate and locks.

Basically the weight of the dead rope is behaving in the same way as your braking hand would do: apply pressure so that the rope passing through the device has to make some very sharp radius bends which increases friction. This multiple bending of the rope is basically how all belay and abseil devices work.

As per my first words: Do not belay like this! There are too many things to go wrong. It’s less likely to work with new ropes or thinner ropes for example and also relies on there being quite a weight of rope on the ground. Don’t do it!

* This is why you should always have a controlling hand on the dead rope – by the time you feel the pull of the falling climber on the rope they already have considerable momentum and it will be much harder to stop them without getting rope burn.

I agree with others – a grigri isn’t a substitute for learning to belay properly so that you don’t drop your partner.

Obviously. I’ve not suggested that is the least.

And yes, you shouldn’t let go of the dead rope – everyone knows this. But what if you do? A Grigri at least stands a slightly better chance of locking in that situation – at least, I think it does.

The other situation is when lowering someone off – which happens on every climb. If I somehow fumble the rope with an ATC they will fall. If I let go of the handle on a loaded Grigri, they will stop.

I thought I read somewhere that the newest gri gri (or it might have been another similar device) had been updated so when you pull back hard on the lever it actually locks (to ensure the rope is braked when the lever is pulled in a panic)

A GriGri requires a force to activate the braking mechanism. It is possible, but unlikely, that the device fails to work because not enough force has been applied. The most likely scenario is when the rope in the system is fairly snug and the climber simply sags onto the rope, if the belayer doesn’t notice that this is happening and “shocks” the device into locking then the rope will simply slip through it. The lighter the climber the more likely this is.

I know you are looking at protecting your kids but to a large degree you are over thinking this. With more than one child I’d get one of the others to act as second and third hands on the dead rope. This way they get to feel some form of responsibility and you can let them “control” the descent of the one lowering off while you are still in the system and can grab the rope should anything go awry.

No device is fail safe though some are more so than others, given the right set of circumstances any device may fail but with another set of circumstances any device can auto-lock. Basically it doesn’t matter what device you use, you still need to be alert.

I know you are looking at protecting your kids but to a large degree you are over thinking this.

There’s a massive flaw in the safety system.  But everyone accepts it cos that’s just the way it is.  Like car seatbelts in the 70s.

Basically it doesn’t matter what device you use, you still need to be alert.

Of course, and I’m not arguing otherwise.  But accidents happen, and I want to be covered as much as I can be.

Molgrips – you won’t drop the kids. I haven’t and I’m a complete idiot. The two older boys (9 and 12) tie themselves in and can belay each other safely (with me backing up) an they are bigger idiots than me (most of the time). I’ve impressed the importance of safety on them, and so do their lessons – its about the only time I see them focussed fully.

Far more experienced people than me have demonstrated the amount of friction generated through the belay device and I dare say your girls weigh next to nothing. Two krabs I’ve seen but never felt the need.

It’s all about learning right, repetition, focus and muscle memory all of which you clearly have covered,and the fact you’re concerned is even better. Just grab one of the staff or another climber to observe if you’re feeling rusty maybe, before they start . I did it for my first 3 solo visits, and going to different centers (forcing an induction inspection) can keep you on your toes.

However, I find the best way to keep myself focussed is simply to imagine explaining an incident of

any sort to Mrs B  😀

molgrips wrote:

There’s a massive flaw in the safety system.  But everyone accepts it cos that’s just the way it is.  Like car seatbelts in the 70s.

There really isn’t – not if you get properly trained and learn how to do things properly. I’m 100% confident I’m not going to drop my kids when I take them climbing – if it’s worrying you then I suggest you spend your money on a training course rather than a grigri, the failsafe mechanism is knowing what to do and doing it every time.

Your argument here is along the lines of “what if I lose concentration, let go of the wheel and drive into that tree”. Seatbelts won’t help you much more than a grigri will.

Accidents happen because people do things fundamentally wrong – and you can still do things fundamentally wrong when using a grigri.

The massive flaw is?

If there were such a flaw then there’d be countless accidents every weekend.

antigee wrote:

“ @aracer

“Personally I’m still using 25yo krabs…………”

I’d be a little cautious there for 2 reasons

I’m thinking bent alu krabs are maybe rather older than that – mine are all forged with gate open ratings stamped on them. They’re a bit heavier than modern krabs, but the ratings are the same. I’ve already covered the wear issue – they don’t wear when sitting in the gear box for 15 years and I suspect they’ve had more use in the last year than the previous 24 – I’ll replace metal bits based upon use and inspection (I got a new belay krab, and will be replacing my current one this year based on wear – was thinking of getting a steel one for use at the wall, but will probably get one of the new Edelrid ones with a steel insert and anti-spin clip).

Was surprised to see the instructor at the awesome place I take my kids to lets them belay in short order, like the second lesson. Actually stood up in surprise when I first saw my 6yo daughter belaying another kid way high up the wall, instructor standing a few feet away as he was covering three of them [ie not handling the rope himself]. I am not a climber, so fair to say I can’t evaluate the real risks – can he step in in the event of a fall? Just seems like it would create total panic in such a young belayer [plus she was belaying the one kid in the class who was bold and capable, so a fall not totally out of the question].

So it’s a lot of trust in the instructor’s judgement, which is a bit worrying as a parent when you know your kid’s temperaments  – my other son would I am sure demonstrate perfect belay technique, but the instructor doesn’t know he has the attention span of a goldfish.

Of course if every kid needs the rope fed out by the instructor then there’s no lesson.

can he step in in the event of a fall?

He might have been holding the dead rope, or had another kid holding it or have put a knot in the dead rope as a fail safe.

Your argument here is along the lines of “what if I lose concentration, let go of the wheel and drive into that tree”. Seatbelts won’t help you much more than a grigri will.

But cars have seatbelts (which do very obviously help), airbags, crumple zones, lane drift warnings, automatic hazard detection and braking, blind spot warnings etc etc.  All put in to mitigate the effects of a mistake elsewhere.

Your argument is nonsense.  Everywhere we look, measures are taken to make things safer *when someone makes a mistake*.  People wear hard hats on building sites in case someone drops a brick or a hammer.  Would you tell builders to simply hold on to their hammers better?

…anyway, never mind all this technical stuff. The main thing is that the best belayer is the one having most fun.

The main thing is that the best belayer is the one having most fun.

Dunno about that. I would say its the one paying attention and then having fun after that.

At least if I am the one being belayed. Otherwise I would agree with you.

molgrips wrote:

<span style=”font-size: 0.8rem;”>But cars have seatbelts (which do very obviously help), airbags, crumple zones, lane drift warnings, automatic hazard detection and braking, blind spot warnings etc etc.  All put in to mitigate the effects of a mistake elsewhere.</span>

and yet people still die when they drive into trees whilst experienced belayers don’t ever drop their partner by not belaying correctly (all sorts of other ways for things to go wrong climbing, but the one you’re worried about only happens with people who are inexperienced). The thing is letting go of the dead rope is somewhat different to other “mistakes” you mention – the dead rope doesn’t just slip out of your hand, not when you’re concentrating which is what you do when you’re belaying.

The issue here is that a grigri doesn’t provide the complete protection you seem to think it does, but it does provide a false sense of security – I’m not concerned that I’ll ever let go of the rope, the difference is skill and experience and you’re better off getting some training if you’re not sure rather than relying on tech.

Meanwhile there are real downsides to anything other than the standard way of doing things.

Your argument is nonsense.

I fear it’s your extended analogy that is nonsense. We do all those things in cars and on building sites (PPE, airbags etc) AND we encourage people to behave more safely because avoiding an accident is better than mitigating the effects. Climbing is exactly the same, we have kit to mitigate the outcome of an accident (helmets, ropes belay devices) AND we encourage people to behave more safely. None of your examples from other spheres of life are failsafes and belaying is not fail-safe either.

The issue here is that a grigri doesn’t provide the complete protection you seem to think it does

Well if you scroll back you’ll see I said this more than once, so you’re wrong – I don’t think it provides complete protection.

but it does provide a false sense of security

Well no, because I know it doesn’t provide complete protection, as stated 🙂

I’m not concerned that I’ll ever let go of the rope, the difference is skill and experience

So – every other skilled person takes precautions in case they make a mistake – but not climbers.  Cos climbers never make mistakes, do they?  So why is half the thread talking about belayers making mistakes and showing poor technique?

 Safety comes from knowledge of the risks and correct use of the equipment.

Also on building sites, safety come from not dropping hammers.  And yet…  people still drop hammers, so people wear hard hats.

I cannot understand this situation at all.The situation is totally bonkers.

Would you mind answering my question about what you consider to be a massive flaw?

Mistakes never happen?  First few hits on Google:

Accident at the gym last night raises some safety concerns from climbing

Ashima Shiraishi takes 45-foot fall in climbing gym. from climbing

Belay partner nearly caused me to deck – advice from climbing

So, mistakes DO happen after all.  It’s absurd to simply say ‘do it properly’ because anyone can make a mistake.  No-one is perfect, not even you aracer.  At some point you will make one, if you are lucky it will not be at the same time when your partner falls.

And yes, one of these stories involves a Grigri.  I’m not saying they are failsafe (again).  I’m saying that no-one’s bothered about developing a technique or equippment that is failsafe.

Would you mind answering my question about what you consider to be a massive flaw?

It’s the same as I have been going on about this whole time.  The flaw is that one mistake by a belayer can cost a climber his or her life.  Fumble the rope – bang.  Pull the lever at the wrong time – bang.  Take your hand off it at the wrong moment – bang.  There’s no second line.

Google turns up loads of results for belayers dropping climbers.

So – every other skilled person takes precautions in case they make a mistake – but not climbers.

You’re not getting it are you? The rope and belay device IS the precaution. To continue with your rather unhelpful analogy, have you installed a rally style harness in your car instead of a seatbelt to make it safer? It would make it safer but I’m willing to bet you haven’t done this. Why? Because you think that the existing precautions are adequate to mitigate the risk and the rally style set up would be very costly and have a negative impact on useability. There might be ways to make belaying safer but they could impact on useability and most climbers think existing methods are adequate.

It’s also wrong to say that climbers aren’t worried about this. Lots of companies have looked into this and  a simple self locking device that also releases under load in a controlled fashion and pays out easily when needed would be a big seller. But some of those requirements are almost contradictory so it has proven difficult to do.

^ that huge article has a fundamental belaying mistake alluded to in it.

The fact that it is expected to only have one hand on belay. Where possible, I have two, and locked off firmly.

also:

Do we know diameter and make of rope in the ATC? Small ropes and certain brands (or new ropes) are much slippier, especially in a low drag belay device.

An ATC Guide often has barely enough friction IME. Only when firmly held in lock off position does it hold.

This was a lead climb – how much slack was out and between plate and hand?

The little lemons are lining up here – the fall is the final third lemon in a line that meant that a ground fall occurred. A slip, a burning hand, and belayer cannot hold the fall.

Edit: you also miss the *billions* of safe climbs that are not listed on the Internet…

The rope and belay device IS the precaution.

When climbing, yes, but not when being lowered off.  Of course I get this.

But my point is that as safety equipment it’s not good enough.

Lots of companies have looked into this and  a simple self locking device that also releases under load in a controlled fashion and pays out easily when needed would be a big seller. But some of those requirements are almost contradictory so it has proven difficult to do

Ok.  So you admit that it’s an issue, but no-one’s been able to solve it so far.  Maybe I’ll have a go at a solution then!

But given that most climbers think traditional equippment is perfectly ok, and in fact get annoyed when you point out it’s not – I am not convinced it would in fact be a big seller.

There is a relatively straightforward solution to Molgrip’s predicament. Only go to walls that have autobelays, although even they are not totally failsafe and still require the user to clip in correctly.

I’ve also seen a ground fall in the Peak due to a leader not getting enough slack to clip a piece of protection. The belayer was fumbling with a GriGri type device, and the slack just wouldn’t pay out. The fall was now far enough, with enough slack, that the leader partially pulled the only piece of gear and hit the rock on the floor with feet…

But given that most climbers think traditional equippment is perfectly ok, and in fact get annoyed when you point out it’s not – I am not convinced it would in fact be a big seller.

That’s clearly bollocks because if it was true we’d all still be using waist belays.

Auto belay…although even they are not totally failsafe

Yes, don’t look up the HSE enquiries about those things….

that huge article has a fundamental belaying mistake alluded to in it.

Yep – that’s my point.  Mistakes are made, but in that situation the equipment does nothing.

Let’s think about this for a minute.  How about a device with two rollers and a friction clutch that you clamp on the live rope and fix to your harness or the tie in loop. It’s got a ratchet, so the rope can go in through it as fast as you want – but it’ll only pay the rope out at a certain speed.  Like an auto-belay, basically.

Could be quite useful in a sport situation, no?

So you admit that it’s an issue,

And I assume you’ll now be off to install rally seatbelts in your car and purchase crash helmets for the family just to be consistent about the whole issue of safety equipment that isn’t up to scratch?

but it’ll only pay the rope out at a certain speed.  Like an auto-belay, basically.

Just use an autobelay then, why bother having a person on it? What you describe would be useless for leading unless you could override the clutch to pay out and then you’re back to user error square one…

Thinking about this from another angle molgrips, if you want to remove all risk of a belayer dropping their climber you need to eliminate human error which means eliminating humans. Autobelays (almost) do this so that’s you sorted for a top roping scenario.

In other situations, the safety of the climber absolutely relies on the human in the system and their judgement. Do I pay out rope fast or slow? Do I go for a quick catch (to avoid them hitting a ledge say) or something more dynamic (to reduce impact on runners)? A device that took those nuances out of the equation would be a poor choice for anything other than top roping.

The reason most walls/instructors/outdoor centres teach with traditional belay devices is that they assume people will progress to other disciplines than top roping and so want to build experience with those devices. If that’s not your intention then crack on with the autobelays.

Just use an autobelay then, why bother having a person on it?

Cos there’s usually only a couple at a climbing wall.  If there were an autobelay on ever route, then of course you’d not use a human.  You could both be climbing.

A device that took those nuances out of the equation would be a poor choice for anything other than top roping.

Indeed, but it would still have a use when top roping.  Which a lot of people do…

Sure it makes sense to practice the more dangerous techniques, but there’s not much point in deliberately using them when you have a better alternative.  If you have one, that is.

And I assume you’ll now be off to install rally seatbelts in your car and purchase crash helmets for the family just to be consistent about the whole issue of safety equipment that isn’t up to scratch?

I assume that what you’re crudely and annoyingly trying to say is that certain safety equipment might come with unacceptable downsides.  Of course that’s true.  But it doesn’t invalidate my point.  I believe a device that will lock itself in some situations is better than one that never locks itself.  And in the case of Grigri, I don’t think there is a penalty.  They are quite easy to use.  The SRC on the other hand is more of a pain to pay out.