regenesis wrote:

On their Sport range aracer – its specifically reinforced for this however its not their preferred method of connection.

As opposed to their industrial range? I’m not sure if you’re trying to make some non-existent distinction here, but that advice is part of their general rock climbing advice, which also includes:

https://www.petzl.com/GB/en/Sport/PARTNER-CHECK?ActivityName=Rock-climbing for example – though if you look through their website at pics and videos you’ll see everybody tying in through the tie in points as we’re all suggesting here – in fact I challenge you to find a single example on their website of somebody tying in using the belay loop – I didn’t spot one. Or go to the tech info on any harness and you’ll see the suggested methods either being tying in through the tie in points or using back to back krabs on the belay loop. Meanwhile their harnesses appear to be constructed just like all others are.

Maybe you could point out where on their website they provide this advice you think they consider so important (which all their tech tips and everybody in all of their pics and videos ignore).

We could bring up cross loading of the carabiner

We could, but I’m not sure what it has to do with anything.

molgrips wrote:

I bought a harness ooh, four years ago I think, and used it twice indoors without falling and since then it’s been stored in the house in its bag in a dark interior cupboard.  I could return it to the shop and get away with it, it’s in mint condition.  Not going to scrap that.

No, that’s cool – mine is about the same age and has got pretty heavy use – though I’ll probably be looking at retiring a lot of my “new” gear this year or next. Apologies for worrying unduly, it seems you’re already aware of the need to retire old textiles – I think 10 years is still an acceptable rule of thumb for lifetime of harnesses which have been lightly used and well stored.

Congratulations on the successful climbing trip with your kids though – mine were both quite into it (it was how I got back in as I was going to the wall with them), but they don’t seem very interested in going much any more 🙁

I’m still curious though whether you ended up tying in to your harness when belaying your kids?

Good to hear Molgrips.  I took my son (9 yo) last weekend for the first time and, despite being a regular in the Alps many years ago, I decided to swallow my pride and ask for a quick refresher from the staff there.  They were brilliant (The Barn, just outside Tavistock) and it all came back to me in about 5 seconds.

My lad loved it and it’s reignited my passion, just great to be walking around clapping chalk on my hands again.

I do what the manufacturer says in the instructions that come with my gear. I don’t do what some stranger on the internet says. I don’t do what I see at the crag or wall, I do what the manufacturer says for that specific product.

At the wall I always tie into the waist loops rather than a closed fo8 clipped to the belay loop, again really just because it’s what I’ve always done, and I prefer the consistency.

Always good to have muscle memory that knows the safe thing to do when it’s all gone to rat-poo part way up a big climb and you’re too stressed to think properly.

I do what the manufacturer says in the instructions that come with my gear. I don’t do what some stranger on the internet says. I don’t do what I see at the crag or wall, I do what the manufacturer says for that specific product.

Likewise. Also loving that having kids is actually pulling folk back into climbing via trips to the wall.

Congratulations on the successful climbing trip with your kids though

Yeah this is quite a big deal with my eldest, as she usually with a new activity she’ll encounter some cause for fear or some difficulty and totally give up and never want to go again.  But she was totally engaged and committed the whole time, which is brilliant for her.  Of course, Daddy doesn’t get to climb, but it’s ok.

I’m still curious though whether you ended up tying in to your harness when belaying your kids?

I did not.  I never used to do this when climbing with my mates at the wall either.  I didn’t think anything of it until I realised I’d got within a few m of the end of the rope as I was lowering one off, because I’d backed away from the wall.

Pertinent point is what do the climbing center expect – if anyone clocked you tying in in a non approved way regardless of your belief or preference they might well not let you back in.

I take my 6 year old son to the local climbing wall infrequently. It’s usually me belaying with him climbing, generally with words of encouragement from me. He doesn’t stick to coloured holds etc, just climbs up the wall

I get to have a little go on the autobelays, otherwise I’d be belaying only.

If I’m honest, I’ve not understood why you use a carabiner on the belay loop and a rope around the waist leg loops, but I just get on with it. Two caveats

1- if I use the autobelay I can only attach with an auto-locking crab so clip that to my belay loop

2- my son uses a full body petzl harness so I tie the rope through both points of that

At our place (Boulders in Cardiff) if you only belay and don’t climb then you don’t pay.  So until they can boulder unsupervised, I won’t get to climb.

@aracer

“Personally I’m still using 25yo krabs – I checked on the advice regarding gear wear when I restarted climbing, and apart from manufacturers having to specify a lifetime on gear all sensible advice seemed to be that metal doesn’t deteriorate with age”

I’d not recommend use any metal gear thats aged in a loaded situation.    Metal does deteriorate with age dependant on many thigs.   Material, manufacture quality, type of metal, what its been used for, poor care, where its been used etc.  I’d suggest we abuse our kit much more than we realize at times.

I keep wires on old krabs but think that I have some metal kit that should be retired before I finally find another use for it. What about 25 year old wires?  Would you take a screamer on them?  Yes I have but thats because I’m Yorkshire.

I’ve clipped some ratty old pegs placed in the 50’s and not been concerned in the past but I was young then.

Pertinent point is what do the climbing center expect

You’re right, but IME their expectations are that you’re safe rather than “my way or the highway.”  If you were tying in with a granny knot through your gear loops they’d have something to say about it (or at least, I’d bloody well hope so).

At climbing walls I’ve been tying in with a screwgate rather than direct to the harness for donkeys’ years.  I’ve been to umpteen walls up and down the country, and not once have I had any of the staff say anything for not tying in “properly.”

I’ve not understood why you use a carabiner on the belay loop and a rope around the waist leg loops

It’s arguably one less point of failure I suppose, one less thing to potentially go wrong (climbing on an unlocked screwgate crab perhaps), but I don’t really understand the obsession with it either.  A belay loop and a screwgate are both designed to take climbing forces, you don’t thread the rope through your harness when belaying and what’s going on on the wall is the same as what’s going on on the floor if you fall.

@molgrips – I always used to have a solid knot of some sort tied in to the non-live end of the rope just to stop it running through the belay device as the first you’d know about it was when the end of the rope would slide through the controlling hand. Typically this was when 50m ropes were standard and some of the newer sports routes started being 27 metres high so you’d be able to lower the lead climber back down on rope stretch! 😮 Less of a problem when 60m ropes became standard until 33m pitches appeared!

Most climbing walls I visited simply used to ask at registration if you knew how to tie-in using a recognised knot. It may have changed in the last few years since I stopped climbing. It was the floor walkers who would question the use of the Bowline – I know an amusing tale of one the top UK climbers who was pulled up about it.

matt_outandabout wrote:

I do what the manufacturer says in the instructions that come with my gear. I don’t do what some stranger on the internet says. I don’t do what I see at the crag or wall, I do what the manufacturer says for that specific product.

Which in the case of Petzl appears to be to tie in through the tie in loops (at least for the couple of harnesses I checked). I’d be curious to see the instructions from any harness manufacturer which didn’t specify that as a method of tying in.

molgrips wrote:

I’m still curious though whether you ended up tying in to your harness when belaying your kids?

I did not.  I never used to do this when climbing with my mates at the wall either.  I didn’t think anything of it until I realised I’d got within a few m of the end of the rope as I was lowering one off, because I’d backed away from the wall.

Well no, you don’t, which is why I was wondering what you were worried about! Some of the ropes at our wall are a bit short, but even so you’d have to back off the wall a long way before the end of the rope went through the belay device. Presumably you girls were using harness from the climbing centre – the standard hire ones tend to have only a single tie in point (part of the reason for which is I suspect to simplify things for people).

molgrips wrote:

At our place (Boulders in Cardiff) if you only belay and don’t climb then you don’t pay.  So until they can boulder unsupervised, I won’t get to climb.

Same here – it’s fairly standard. I’ve never yet put my climbing shoes on when I’ve taken my kids to the indoor wall (only when outside and I’ve soloed up what I’ve roped them on 🙂 ). Though I’ll probably get a sub at some point soon in which case I guess I’ll go bouldering with them (they’re a bit older than yours and don’t need direct supervision, though it’s still frowned upon to leave your kids bouldering whilst you sit in the cafe or go on the ropes).

mt wrote:

I’d not recommend use any metal gear thats aged in a loaded situation.    Metal does deteriorate with age dependant on many thigs.   Material, manufacture quality, type of metal, what its been used for, poor care, where its been used etc.  I’d suggest we abuse our kit much more than we realize at times.

They mostly spent 15 years sitting in a tub not being used, and having done a metallurgy module at uni, no metal doesn’t deteriorate with age (I only sought advice from the climbing community to check my understanding wasn’t wrong). Metal might deteriorate with repeated loadings, with sufficient heat or due to oxidation or corrosion, but alu sitting in a tub for 15 years will be in the same state as when it went in. Unlike textiles which do age with exposure to the atmosphere and to light it’s only usage which results in degradation of metal, so age is an incredibly crude measure.

I keep wires on old krabs but think that I have some metal kit that should be retired before I finally find another use for it. What about 25 year old wires?  Would you take a screamer on them?  Yes I have but thats because I’m Yorkshire.

I’ve clipped some ratty old pegs placed in the 50’s and not been concerned in the past but I was young then.

No, but only because I’ve never taken a screamer on trad. My wires are a similar age, but probably still have less use than some people put on their kit in a year – there’s a chance some of my nuts have never been placed and certainly none of them have ever taken a lead fall. Hence given the above comments about ageing of metals there’s no reason to think they’re not as strong as when they were new.

In situ pegs are a different matter – you don’t know what loadings they’ve taken (I’ve certainly fallen on bolts outdoors – I tend to climb somewhat bolder on sport) and they’ll also have suffered from corrosion due to exposure to the elements. Not really comparable to a rack of old gear you know hasn’t ever been loaded properly.

but only because I’ve never taken a screamer on trad

You’ve never lived! I’m sure my lack of hair has something to do with that.

I know manufacturers have to put an age limit on their products but as you say, for metal it’s very much a CYA exercise. Wires do decay, it’s usually the actual loop of wire that abrades against the rock causing the individual strands to break – it’s a fairly obvious thing though as the ends of the strands tend to spike your fingers!

I’ve a full rack of quick draws that are now almost ten years old but have been sat in the loft for five years. The crabs will be fine, it’s the dyneema loops that will be slowly weakening.

I always found it strange that people would happily trust fixed gear (bolts) that had been placed by persons unknown and was of uncertain age and usage but not wires, Friends, etc that they place themselves.

Pertinent point is what do the climbing center expect

Except, as I’ve pointed out, my wall are wrong. Most of the instructors there are CWI or CWA qualified, and only worked in that wall. I’ve sat and watched them belay – and wouldn’t let my kid up the wall with two of them, as they’re belay techniques are sloppy.

I’ve been on that wall as SPA, with 10 other SPA’s for training days, been on with MIA and MIC, as well as Int. mountain guide. All of us agree the wall staff are wrong. I’ve 20 years now as SPA, leading training for staff and holding the can as Chief Instructor. I’m bloody well doing what manufacturer says, and I know is right.

IME, there’s a lot of sloppy stuff going on with climbers, especially on walls.

matt_outandabout wrote:

Except, as I’ve pointed out, my wall are wrong. Most of the instructors there are CWI or CWA qualified, and only worked in that wall. I’ve sat and watched them belay – and wouldn’t let my kid up the wall with two of them, as they’re belay techniques are sloppy.

The point is though that ultimately it’s their rules.

I’m curious for more detail though. You’ve alluded a few times to your local wall being wrong without specifying in exactly what way they’re wrong and how it corresponds to the advice everybody here is giving – I’ve checked the manufacturers instructions for mine and it specifies either using the tie in loops, or the belay loop to tie the rope to. So what are the instructors there doing wrong, what are they telling you which is wrong, and what is wrong with the 4 pics?

I’m spending a lot of time at climbing walls at the moment, so get to watch lots of people and whilst I’m not impressed at some of the external instructors who come in (particularly the teacher from one school who’s regularly in), I couldn’t fault any of the in house team. But then it’s a very professionally run wall with people who know what they’re doing and care a lot about safety.

Except, as I’ve pointed out, my wall are wrong. Most of the instructors there are CWI or CWA qualified, and only worked in that wall. I’ve sat and watched them belay – and wouldn’t let my kid up the wall with two of them, as they’re belay techniques are sloppy.

I’ve been on that wall as SPA, with 10 other SPA’s for training days, been on with MIA and MIC, as well as Int. mountain guide. All of us agree the wall staff are wrong. I’ve 20 years now as SPA, leading training for staff and holding the can as Chief Instructor. I’m bloody well doing what manufacturer says, and I know is right.

IME, there’s a lot of sloppy stuff going on with climbers, especially on walls.

I’d agree but my point was picked up by aracer. You may very well know better, but if they think you’re being a dick you won’t get to climb which may limit your (your in this case being Molgrips) opportunity (for those of us not blessed with mountains on the doorstep).

That said my local wall seem on the button and are always happy to help and give an opinion (take the p***) – and they’ve consistently taught to tie in using the two tie in loops. The friction belay is an oddity though as my memory is failing me (I’d be fine stood in front of it I think) – think you just clip a locking krab into 1 loop? Don’t think the loop was specified, but its more likely me that’s wrong/forgetful

brassneck wrote:

The friction belay is an oddity though as my memory is failing me (I’d be fine stood in front of it I think) – think you just clip a locking krab into 1 loop? Don’t think the loop was specified, but its more likely me that’s wrong/forgetful

The auto belay? Assuming it’s like all others I’ve seen it has an auto-locking krab, that if it’s visibly closed it’s locked. You clip it onto the belay loop – you can’t clip through the two other loops as that would result in a 3 way loading on the krab (and if you clip only one you’re not loading the harness properly). I’ve been thinking about how it’s different from what Cougar does and the obvious thing is what he kind of mentioned – that if you’re clipped in the gate is locked and staff can see it is locked.

I think this is the perfect time to add Grigri vs belay plate to the discussion……. (although I’m wondering if it’s partly what MattOAB is alluding to….)

The Autobelay at my local wall has two locking krabs.  One into the belay loop and then a backup on a very short sling that is clipped into the waist.

So what are the instructors there doing wrong, what are they telling you which is wrong, and what is wrong with the 4 pics?

They have multiple sheets, with four pics per sheet and random questions. They pick a sheet at random when signing up and occasionally when you sign in on a day.

Three pics are are just deliberately wrong knot or threading of rope (funnily enough, one is through the belay loop…). Fourth correct one is correct – apart from the loop created when tying into the harness is excessivly long. The loop created should be either tight or about same as belay loop.

Yes I am being fussy – but I wouldn’t have signed off one of my instructors for doing that.

I’m going to use a Grigri.  The lack of fail-safety in climbing gear really bugs me, and YES I KNOW a Grigri isn’t fail-safe, but’s better than an ATC.

If someone finds me a really fail-safe one I’ll be all over it.  I also have a Wild Country SRC, not sure if that qualifies or not.  I bought it because it was suitable for lead climbing.  A bugger to use though.

Re the test – they had one picture of an incorrectly fitted harness and I had to look for a few minutes to see what was wrong.  Made me sweat given my nervousness about having forgotten all I once knew.

SRC is betterer as it locks, not releases like a GriGri, under panic pulls.

Edelrid did a similar thing iirc.

ATC doesn’t have enough ”grip” imo, the one with extra grips does.

“The loop created should be either tight or about same as belay loop.”

Interestingly one of the instructors locally pulled me up for this recently.  Apparently gather the loop in a fist and if the knot doesn’t touch the hand the loop is too long. (Probably not explained that very well).  Making it longer is a bad habit I picked up 20 years ago from building belays on grit where inevitably there was lots of traipsing and a longer loop was easier to clip bits into. Although whether or not that was good practice is another discussion altogether…..

I like my ATC Guide. My problem with a Grigri is purely lack of familiarity which means I can’t at a glance tell if it’s correctly threaded etc.

I KNOW a Grigri isn’t fail-safe, but’s better than an ATC.

In some ways yes in others no.

Worst case scenario* with a grigri is if someone pulls the handle right down and lets go of the dead rope. There is very little friction in this system and the climber will hit the deck pretty hard.

Worst case scenario* with an ATC is the belayer letting go of the dead rope. Whilst you’ll still deck out there is still a significant amount of friction in a typical wall rope running round an ATC so the climber won’t deck so hard.

You pays your money and you takes your choice…

*Assuming it’s all wired up and attached correctly.

What I am most worried about (at the wall at least) is accidentally letting go of the dead rope, or fumbling it. Especially if or when my kids end up learning to belay.

Interested in improving security in general. What about using an ascender in the live rope? Most people seem to think it’s perfectly acceptable to have a system that is one fumble away from being useless.

Don’t replace poor technique with more gear that requires more technique.

Belay properly and you are safe.

Adding more complexity, and then relying on that, is not a good direction of travel.

Interested in improving security in general. What about using an ascender in the live rope?

Matt’s right don’t complicate things. Find a device you’re comfortable with and keep your eye on the ball.

Dropping the kids has never crossed my mind. I did a little course to learn to belay properly and do other wall related things

whats the reason for not having the fig 8 loop too long?

whats the reason for not having the fig 8 loop too long?

Mainly so it doesn’t catch on things. More important once you start leading.

Belay properly and you are safe.

See, this is what I am talking about. The response to injuries caused in car crashes isn’t simply “don’t crash and you’ll be fine”. Likewise the guidelines from health and safety executive dont finish with “don’t have an accident”. We wear PPE because accidents are inevitable eventually no matter how hard we try.  A belayer WILL make a.mistake eventually, I’ve made them. They just didn’t coincide with my partner falling.

A hedge trimmer has a dead man’s handle, rather than simply a notice saying “don’t cut your leg off and youll be fine”. No idea why climbers aren’t worried about this.

I did a little course to learn to belay properly

I had lessons on how to.drive properly but I still wear a seatbelt. I can ride a bike.properly but I still wear a helmet.

No idea why climbers aren’t worried about this.

They are, it’s just that the solution is care rather than kit.

I had lessons on how <span class=”skimlinks-unlinked”>to.drive</span> properly but I still wear a seatbelt.

The belay device IS the seatbelt in that it’s there to help prevent injury when things go wrong and incorrect use of either can lead to injury.

You also need to consider that there is much more to climbing than top roping at the wall and that belay devices need to fulfill a much wider range of functions than they do in that role. For example, they need to be able to lock off in a fall and pay out rapidly to make a clip. They also need to release under load, potentially be used to abseil and be relatively light weight and simple to use. If you can come up with a device that does all or even most of that then get to the patent office!

whats the reason for not having the fig 8 loop too long?

As above, it catches on things.

In addition, as it’s loaded you have knot at face height if too long.

Finally, on a crag or abseiling, there are good reasons to keep it small when setting up belays or abseil rescues. A long loop can add complications, or even make it impossible.

I’m going to use a Grigri. The lack of fail-safety in climbing gear really bugs me, and YES I KNOW a Grigri isn’t fail-safe, but’s better than an ATC.

This is the bowline argument again.  A Gri-Gri is safer and ‘better’ in the right hands, but it’s also vastly easier to use incorrectly with hilarious consequences.

I belay with a GG, but (personally) unlike a bowline knot I’m confident in using it reliably, safely and consistently

Worst case scenario* with a grigri is if someone pulls the handle right down

Even if that were the case, the belayer should still be controlling the rope with their off-hand just as with a conventional device.

Worst case scenario with a GG is that someone threads it backwards.

what’s the reason for not having the fig 8 loop too long?

Partly as @Spin says about catching on things but also if the loop is too big it becomes very awkward trying clip the rope into protection when leading.

I found that in climbing it was best to keep things simple, if you make things complicated then when the smelly stuff hits the fan you won’t remember them.

What I found amusing was the blind following of “best practice” such as having three anchor points for a belay – you’d see someone at the top of Stanage spending tens of minutes trying to fit three pieces of gear when right behind them in the perfect alignment is a 30 tonne boulder that just needs the roop looping around it.

@molgrips even the most basic belay plate will lock of its own accord if the rope(s) are in the right configuration. This does require that the device is shock loaded, the worst case is that someone simply sags onto the rope or, in the case of children, aren’t heavy enough to do so. Even “auto lock” devices like the GriGri can be prone to this so they aren’t completely fail safe. With a basic belay plate you can make the locking more likely by using two screwgate crabs between it and the belay loop of the harness, i.e. the rope goes through two crabs rather than just one, it makes the angles the rope moves through slightly more acute. It does make it slightly harder to feed the rope if someone’s moving quickly.

IMO learning how to belay without a device is a skill worth learning even if you don’t use it regularly. It teaches you how belay devices work and if you have to step in to help someone out you don’t need to get kitted up to do so. (I’ve only ever had to do this once). I wouldn’t recommend learning to abseil without a device!

Worst case scenario with a GG is that someone threads it backwards.

Read my asterisk. 🙂

the belayer should still be controlling the rope with their off-hand just as with a conventional device.

And then read the bit where I said ‘and lets go of the dead rope’.

Edit: are smilies not working for everyone or just me?

Read my asterisk

Ah.  Good point, well made.