Viewing 35 posts - 1 through 35 (of 35 total)
  • Citroen Relay vans. Am I missing a trick?
  • PimpmasterJazz
    Free Member

    I’m delving into the murky world of buying a van to convert for a fairly long trip for a family of three. Initially I was sure only a 4×4 Sprinter was the only van I ever wanted until I started doing some research and realised how rare and expensive they are (I’m also not convinced how much I’ll need 4×4 that is up to Merc spec – it’s very good, by all accounts). So I moved into researching regular Sprinters and Crafters, and am now pretty clued-up.

    However, a local conversion company showed me a Citroen Relay they have in their lot. I’d discounted Citroens for, well, being Citroen, but I can’t find much bad online about the Citroen/Fiat/Peugeot platform and the Citroen/Peugeot lump (and even the Fiat isn’t that bad). They are FWD so won’t grip as well when loaded as a RWD Sprinter/Crafter, but that lack of drive shaft does mean a lower, wider rear area (I can lie across it – I can’t in a Sprinter).

    Am I missing a trick here? Should I be considering them, despite their respective companies’ reputation when it comes to reliability?

    trail_rat
    Free Member

    There’s nowt wrong with them

    Don’t discount the Nissan nv400 either

    Ignore badge snobs.

    I’d have the French version over. A sprinter or crafter anyday. Even if the engine turned out to be pony. Rot plagues the sprinter and the crafter to this day no matter how often the fan Bois tell you the brand has sorted it.

    phil5556
    Full Member

    They rust a lot less than sprinters too.

    I’m pretty sure our next van will be one. As much as anything because they are wide enough to sleep across.

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    Trustyrusty
    Free Member

    We have 3 at work, two Citroens (one panel van and one Luton and a newer Peugeot Boxer. My parents also have a proper coach built camper conversion.
    The works vans do take a proper beating and our old panel van has just clocked over 140k and there’s nothing wrong with it that a bloody good clean and a service wouldn’t fix!
    Sure it feels a bit saggy, but some new bushes would sort that out, the infotainment is pretty good apart from the “powered by Tom Tom” sat nav which is marginal when it works, but about as useful as tits on a fish when it just freezes and switches everything off😒
    The Luton van is a bit shonkier and has had a few issues, because it’s a chassis-cab it doesn’t ride nearly as well and the whole thing crashes and shimmies over rough roads, and the rear leaf springs have always creaked and groaned. I think it had a new turbo under warranty and there’s a dpf cooler that went south at just under 100k’s) but other than that they’ve been just fine.
    My folks 64 plate camper van gets it much easier by sitting mostly dormant for 6 months a year then gallivanting about for the other 6, they love it and only hanker after a different conversion as some features could’ve been better thought-out and finished.
    Can’t say that I’ve driven any of the latest German vans of that size, but have passengered in a few and yeah they are a bit nicer, but not nicerer enough IME

    Also, the drivers seat is adjustable and quite comfy, but the standard passenger bench isn’t nice for 1 and quite bloody uncomfortable for 2 full sized adults

    maccruiskeen
    Full Member

    They are FWD so won’t grip as well when loaded as a RWD Sprinter/Crafter,

    Loaded with what? – how much weight are you going on holiday with? The RWD sprinters grip well in XLWB format when you’ve got a few feet of chassis out behind the driven wheels and a ton or more in the back (and some good tyres) but the shorter vans have all the weight (the engine) over the front wheels when they’re not fully loaded-  so on soft ground the front wheels sink in and the rears float. My old SWB couldn’t get up the camber of the road at a T Junction in there was even a little bit of snow and it was entirely helpless on grass.

    Trustyrusty
    Free Member

    Not sure how winter tyres work on wet grass, but we’ve had to fit them to our Relays for European jobs and they were very effective in the snow if slightly noisier

    trail_rat
    Free Member

    mean while my LWB (longer than a sprinter ) RWD iveco WITH 600kilos camper conversion in the back couldnt get off flat damp grass/(my drive) without getting stuck with the Conti Van cos on.

    Tires make much more of a difference on a van even than a car – because simply put once you have spun the wheels in a van – you and your partner are gonna need help to push it out – where as a car beingmuch lighter generally only needs a helping hand 😀

    Went from that to BFG ATs lost 2 mpg and also lost the fear of entering fields at events where a dew would see me stuck – the van also wasnt phased by towing a couple of ton up wet forrestry tracks in the trailer.

    BUT even after all that i wouldnt let the driven wheels decide what van i bought.

    My next Build will be a ducato or similar for the reasons outlined above and that you can sleep sideways – something that cant be done in my daily.

    our old transit was the same on wet grass (which being a gardening and tree surgery we found our selfs on alot ) – just winter tires made enough of a difference that so long as we were not towing the trailer the loaded van could pull its self out.

    i also feel for transparency i should say ive had peugeots and citroens as our main cars since 2009. We have had a peugeot partner van from 38k to 140k and a berlingo from 80k to 140k and bought a 3 year old peugeot partner tepee with 5k on the clock (now on 25k) and have had no major issues with any of them. – for completeness my dads dispatch bought new – was a dog. Clutch in 5k and a full suspension rebuild at 60k – and i mean FULL every single bush in the front end was shot. – but i will say my dads a builder – he has a trailer and a mini digger. That van was abused every day of its life i would reckon.

    mikekay
    Free Member

    I’m half way through a conversation of a citron relay. Very impressed with it to the point that when my works transit custom needs replacing it will be the smallest version of the relay.
    Don’t fall for the snob badge of the German pair they have their good points but way too expensive

    spooky_b329
    Full Member

    Loaded with what? – how much weight are you going on holiday with?

    Pretty easy to add over 1000kg during a half decent conversion, and 1500kg once you add holiday junk, water, people, bikes and the cheap booze from the continent. Also pretty easy to build heavy and go overweight.

    maccruiskeen
    Full Member

    Pretty easy to add over 1000kg during a half decent conversion

    So less with a decent one? 🙂

    avdave2
    Full Member

    1500kg added to the base vehicle could well take you over 3500kg gross depending on the model of van. Payloads are often only around 1200 – 1300kg. We went for a high roof long wheelbase Boxer at work as along with the clones have the highest payloads of large vans. The mercs are a lot lower, that drive shaft adds a lot of weight. It’s a great van to drive and we’ve been very pleased with it. Certainly more comfortable that the VWLT 35 we also have. That’s an 06 and seems pretty indestructible but getting very tatty now. We looked at Sprinters and Crafters when we got the Boxer but payloads were much lower and prices much higher. Don’t forget with the payload that has to include fuel and you.

    mc
    Free Member

    From a fleet perspective, Relays are cheap, but not as durable or as reliable as the other options, and support can be very mediocre.

    If you’re an owner driver, they’re generally OK, but abuse them like a typical company van, and they’ll generally last about 3-4 years before they become a regular garage attendee. In typical French style, electrics are probably the biggest potential issue, but the usual issues are door locks/handles/hinges/rollers, with the odd gearbox that likes to reduce itself to a pile of metallic grindings. Although the recurring issue is parts availability. It’s not unusual to have them parked up for 2-3 weeks waiting for parts.
    Most recent(ish) Relay’s are a Fiat Ducato body, with a Ford engine, which adds an extra layer of interest when it comes to fixing them.

    As for Sprinters, if you want the best reliability, with the best support, you buy a Sprinter. They are expensive, but there is a reason why so many vehicle dependant companies have them. Dedicated breakdown via the local dealer, and if breakdown can’t fix it at the side of the road, then it gets priority through the workshop. We’ve maintained various fleets, and provided they’re maintained and not totally abused, Sprinters just run and run, with no where near as many issues as other makes.
    However, they do rust.

    VW do try to muscle in on Sprinters, but their engines aren’t as good, and they don’t have the same support. From a fleet perspective, the only fleets that really bought them were those who wanted something a bit more reliable than a Transit, but didn’t think the extra for a Sprinter was justified (which in the case of one specialisist fleet, they quickly realised they should of paid the extra, as the £200+ per day cost of a van being off the road quickly added up given the amount of warranty work they needed!).

    Ultimately, if you want something relatively new, I’d currently say a Transit is the best option. Ford have put a lot of effort into making their vans more reliable, and we’re not seeing that many issues with the latest versions, to the point I’d say they’re probably just as reliable as current Sprinters. The biggest issues are the older 2.2s the timing chain usually needs done around 100k and the fuel vaporisers regularly cause problems. And the newer 2.0 ecoblue, has had engine oil life and injector issues (plus it has a wet belt that needs done at 150k/10yr).

    duncancallum
    Full Member

    3ltr manual Ducato would be my choice

    F1a engine in a proper square box.

    If it’s good enough for an ambulance it’s ok to drive me to s field to have a beer

    chakaping
    Free Member

    Great post mc.

    Do you have a similar level of knowledge on the current Vivaro/Trafic vs Transit Custom? And should any other medium vans be considered by those wanting something more reasonably priced than a VW?

    Edukator
    Free Member

    Mc’s post is good but a buyer needs to research the exact year model and engine type being bought. The PSA ford-designed, built by Fiat in Italy engine regularly broke about 10 years back but the issues are mainly resolved. I’d still favour the Fiat bloc (is it still available) in the Ducato over a Jumpy (and did when I owned one). I must have been lucky with zero electrical issues apart from thieves stealing a light unit.

    In the snow it was ace, like a big Mini with ground clearance.

    mc
    Free Member

    I wouldn’t touch the current Vivaro/Trafic.
    Turbos that regularly fail.
    Nudge the front bumper, and it’ll break the intercooler mounts off the radiator, which then allows the intercooler to swing back and the intercooler pipe will rub through on the alternator pulley (pipes are currently on backorder, with an unknown delivery date – see that comment I made about poor parts availability…).
    Coolant pipes chaff through, and there is no engine protection. You can simply run it at full power until it self-destructs, unlike pretty much every other manufacturer which will go into limp home mode and even shut down the engine if it detects overheating. We’ve had 3 year old ones written off for engines, as it’s an expensive engine, and needs a lot of labour (~17hrs book time IIRC), so the job cost easily exceeds 50% value of the van. There’s been a couple unhappy fleet managers when they’ve been told the cost, and given the snapshot data showing how long it was driven while showing as overheating.
    We’ve also had one randomly throw a big end through the side of the block at 18k, which if it hadn’t been under warranty, would of been another for the breakers. The fact Vauxhall authorised a new engine within hours with minimal information, makes me suspect there was a known problem, as any other engine warranty request has involved jumping through lots of hoops to ensure it wasn’t driver misuse.
    Door handles regularly fail (even more so than the old version!), and if the side door cable fails, it’s now a complete latch assembly.
    Side doors continually need adjustment, and new locators.
    Rear ABS rings generally split with corrosion after 3-4 years.
    Front struts seem to have a lifespan of just outside warranty before they dump oil out.
    Also had a few needing new rear axles, as the rear dampers get ripped out the mounts on kerbs, as it seems to be a lower design than the previous model.

    On the plus side, they’re brilliant for making bonus on. You can normally get a full days work from a basic service inspection!

    Custom wise, the biggest issue has been the oil life problems on the newer engine, which are mostly fixed via various update. Ford have also shortened the service interval on the facelifted version from 2year/36k, to 1year/25k.
    There are injector issues, but I’ve personally only had to do a single injector, despite now seeing some that have hit 60k.
    The older 2.2s usually need power steering pipes at some point, but the 2.0s seem to use a different pipe design, so that problem has possibly been fixed.
    The 2.2s also had fuel vaporiser issues (to put it in context, for comparable fleet sizes, I’ve probably done as many fuel vaporisers as I have Vivaro turbos..)
    Other than that, they just seem to need routine service parts, well apart from questionable body builder systems, but you can’t really blame Ford for idiots who install run-lock systems that regularly blow ignition fuses leaving a totally van dead instead of a running van.

    My biggest* Ford headache lately has been thermostats on full size Transits, which I suspect has been a bad batch, as they’ve all been on 18 plates with fairly close registrations. I’ve not done a thermostat for years, and I done 4 of them last week alone!

    *My other headache is I’ve been bumped on to the ‘Early Adopter’ list for Ford’s new diagnostic/programming platform, so I have to continually switch between systems depending on what needs done.

    avdave2
    Full Member

    in a proper square box

    Our Boxer is hands down vastly superior to the VW or Sprinter for loading. The space is far more usable. With the Sprinter and VW you are paying for an engine that will do far more miles than you are ever likely to do, and the merc at least will have rusted away long before the engine will let you down. I’ve driven a few transits we’ve rented in and for the last few years they have been really good to drive. They would probably be my personal choice as the best balance of value and reliability if it was within budget

    chakaping
    Free Member

    Cheers for that mc, much appreciated.

    duncancallum
    Full Member

    Mc

    What lease firm you with Vms?

    Blazin-saddles
    Free Member

    I run 2 Boxers, 1 LWB as a camper and a MWB as my work horse. I’ve been impressed with them thus far and had no issues. Both were bought new.

    I might have bought a Transit for work but couldn’t get past the massive price difference, like for like comparison saw the Transit over £6k more expensive.

    The LWB Boxer/Relay has the biggest available payload to convert.

    tthew
    Full Member

    I reckon mc is the new van mechanics expert witness on STW now!

    Do vans of that size really have such a low payload? (1200 – 1300kg quoted up there, well less than a pallet of bricks) That’s surprisingly low, my Connect does 915.

    Blazin-saddles
    Free Member

    The payload on an L3H2 Boxer is around 1575kg. Most vans are rated at 3500Kg all up weight, new vans are pretty heavy with all the extra stuff they are expected to have as standard now.

    trail_rat
    Free Member

    Yes and no.

    Being bigger than your connect they weigh more.

    They only have 3500kg – van weight to play with if they want to remain drivable on Carlicense.

    Some sprinters , ivecos and crafter’s can be 5500kg /6500kg /7000kg. But you need a c1 to drive them. But those have correspondingly higher payloads.

    jonesyboy
    Full Member

    Got an L3h2 relay here, 80k so far in 3 years and it’s been superb. Just looking at a new one, £15,500 ex vat they are just a no brainer. Also get a service pack with the Citroen dealers, super cheap and transferable. Good on fuel, comfy, great load space, doesn’t get sprinter pox, only negative is the lack of cup holders…..

    ganic
    Free Member

    @MC don’t suppose you’re near Leeds are you? Looking for a garage to service my facelift Custom.

    Thanks!

    Blazin-saddles
    Free Member

    Boxers even come with 3 cup holders!

    avdave2
    Full Member

    Do vans of that size really have such a low payload?

    It depends on the wheelbase and height, but the biggest vans have the lowest payloads. The only van we’ve had that wasn’t easy to overload was a Vito, small but with a 1000kg payload. I had a transit luton in a few years ago which I needed to take on a roadshow. I was a bit concerned that it was overloaded so took it to a weighbridge to discover that it was over 4400kg. It didn’t feel bad to drive though, no issues accelerating and getting to speed and not even that noticeable when braking. The problem is that with most of the vans you can very easily overload them and be completely unaware.

    molgrips
    Free Member

    1000kg for a conversion seems like a lot, when an entire pre-2000 caravan weighs about that or less.

    trail_rat
    Free Member

    Yes but most of those were made from balsa wood.

    ambientcoast
    Free Member

    I can lie across it – I can’t in a Sprinter.

    Can’t overstate the importance of this if you’re doing a camper conversion. A bed across the width (rather than down the side) gives you a whole load of additional options for layout.

    Mine’s a SWB/low roof Ducato and I’ve put an extra row of three fixed seats behind the front three, and that still gave me space for an – admittedly – compact camper layout behind that, but that was only possible because the bed runs widthways.

    PimpmasterJazz
    Free Member

    In typical French style, electrics are probably the biggest potential issue, but the usual issues are door locks/handles/hinges/rollers…

    That all sounds like my old 205GTi.

    Some great replies – thanks all, especially MC – some brilliant food for thought. Certainly widens the search parameters.

    tthew
    Full Member

    re. the payload thing, yes I’d not considered the 3500kg limit on a car licence. Being an old bastard I can drive a 7.5 tonner.

    For joneseyboy’s relay, it’s between 1,325 and 1,525kg depending on the gross vehicle weight, (3,300 or 3,500kg). Pallet of bricks is approx 1,700kg, no wonder you sometimes see pick-up versions with the leaf springs upside down under a few of cubic meters of building material!

    PimpmasterJazz
    Free Member

    I have to admit, it hadn’t really dawned on my how much the payload affects things, or how low it is in real terms.

    (Fortunately I am also one of the last old bastards on an older licence, but the better half isn’t quite so fortunate)

    PimpmasterJazz
    Free Member

    For those that already own – I can stand-up in a H2 at 1.8m tall – would getting a H3 be a benefit in your opinion?

    (We’d also be running a roof rack for boards / solar / roof box)

    trail_rat
    Free Member

    For those that already own – I can stand-up in a H2 at 1.8m tall

    Does that include 100mm clearance for insulation and coverings ?

    An H2 already excludes you from height restricted carparks and puts you in the lorry section of ferries so might as well go the whole hog.

Viewing 35 posts - 1 through 35 (of 35 total)

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