For three smart guys, hasn’t it occurred to you after all the STW religion threads that you are probably not going to convince each other to change your minds. So from either a Christian, secular or humanist stance, why not just agree to live and let live?

On the quote I quoted, I knew the quote, but not who said it or what their beliefs were. I Googled it so that I could attribute it, but didn’t look any further.

To dismiss the quote on the basis of the political beliefs of the person quoted would be like dismissing a quote just because it was from a religious text.

Look, they were a present, ok?
And they’re very comfy.

For three smart guys, hasn’t it occurred to you after all the STW religion threads that you are probably not going to convince each other to change your minds. So from either a Christian, secular or humanist stance, why not just agree to live and let live?

I changed my stance on religion based, in part, upon what I’d read on religion threads on here.

You were not one of the three I had mind mike! 😉

It’s the mol vs JY and Whoppit debates. I don’t think there will ever be a winner/meeting of the minds etc!!!! So just accept each others views?

Mr Woppit;

Anything that is no longer palatable or is patently untrue is allegorical.

Everything else is God’s inspired written word and is absolute truth.
Until it becomes allegorical.

I’m stealing that .. thanks for the best and most succinct summary of bible interpretation ever.

molgrips;
Does that involuntary knee jerking cause you pain?

miketually – Member
On the quote I quoted, I knew the quote, but not who said it or what their beliefs were. I Googled it so that I could attribute it, but didn’t look any further.
To dismiss the quote on the basis of the political beliefs of the person quoted would be like dismissing a quote just because it was from a religious text.

“With or without it (religion) you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.” – Steven Weinberg

fair enough mike.
I raised the context because, IMO, it’s his stance as a non-religious Zionist that proves it wrong. In this case it doesn’t take religion, it takes politics. Apart from the talking bollox, it was the mouth the phrase came out of that I found hugely ironic.

as you can probablly tell, I’m in the molgrips school of philosophy (although he should give some credit to Bill and Ted) – be nice to each other. I’d be just as opposed if the quote had read:

“But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion Godlessness.

It’s a quasi-preachy, infamatory pile of terd whichever way you look at it.

To get back to the OP: I have to laugh when people think they’ve uncovered a major flaw in something that teams of theologists have been working on for years after a few moments idle pondering in a carol service.

I know, mike. I was quite surprised myself how easy I found it. Surprised, but a little bit proud.

@PhilAmon: thanks for the list. Don’t you think a good candidate for Messiah would have to fulfil ALL the prophesies? And it’s not as if failing to become King of Israel is a minor detail…

So from either a Christian, secular or humanist stance, why not just agree to live and let live?

If they leave me alone and stop preachin I am in

It’s the mol vs JY and Whoppit debates. I don’t think there will ever be a winner/meeting of the minds etc!!!! So just accept each others views?

BUT HE IS WRONG 😉

Exits stages left [ what other direction could i go] taking hint

Junkyard – Member
BUT HE IS WRONG

Are Ok !?! 😉 I was only joking – just find it funny that you guys keep it going!!!Anyway you are missing the Autumn Statement – the end of national pay bargaining for teachers for example? That should spark some more debate!!

I heard his opening line and tbh we are actually discussing the same thing – fiction with a polemic 😉

Boom, tish!

Neil, no worries.

As someone has said already, to the believer he is king to them right now, but we also believe he will literally be King one day. Revelation for example, a prophetic book in the bible, speaks of a time that is yet to come.

If they leave me alone and stop preachin I am in

The ironic thing is that these threads have been dominated of late by Mike Tually, molgrips, Woppit and JY, none of whom are believers – so who is doing the preaching?

Well we dont do organised services to our followers on a sunday so what do you think?

We dont send letters to like minded folk telling them to oppose gay marriage or whatever view it is we may have.
We dont have an exhaulted place in schools where by they have to do a daily service of worship re our ideas.

Should I go on?
best not might be a bit preachy 😉

Revelation for example, a prophetic book in the bible, speaks of a time that is yet to come.

Ah. So any prophesies Jesus failed to fulfil, that’s because he’s saving it up for next time?
I have to say, looking through that very useful list, a lot of those prophesies are very shaky: He will be born of a woman (no kidding). He will be called a Immanuel (by his mother) – not Jesus then? He will be called a Nazarene..I look at Matthew to see that Joseph took him to live in Nazareth “So was fulfilled what was said through the prophets, that he would be called a Nazarene.” Yet, when I look at the OT scripture that supposedly supports this, it says “Out of the stump of David’s family[a] will grow a shoot”. It makes no mention of what town the messiah will be associated with. When I looked into this a bit I find that nowhere did “The prophets” say he would be called a Nazarene. This little quote is forced into the job because of some obscure pun to do with Nazarenes and shoots.
And so it goes on. It all looks a lot like people looking for prophesy with the benefit of hindsight and then endowing vague and opaque phrases with meaning. I still say, you got the Wrong Guy!

i do not think it is possible to ‘debate’ with so called theologians, they are misguided at best, and apologists for tyranny at worst.

“Ah. So any prophesies Jesus failed to fulfil, that’s because he’s saving it up for next time?”

My comment may look like a ‘get out’ on the face of it, but its not. There is a distinct portion of biblical prophesy that hasn’t happened yet, or has happened between the writing of the bible and now. For example, the seven church ages described in Revelation, six of them have happened, one of them is currently coming to pass. The reforming if Israel happened after the 2nd world war, etc. (Have a look at the prophesies of Daniel and the world kingdoms that have come and gone, interesting stuff) The fact that not all prophecy happened in biblical times actually confirms the bible to many believes rather than discrediting it.

Well we dont do organised services to our followers on a sunday so what do you think?

Well perhaps you shouldn’t go if you want to be left alone.

We dont send letters to like minded folk telling them to oppose gay marriage or whatever view it is we may have.

I didn’t realise you were on their mailing lists, perhaps you should ask to be removed if you want to be left alone

We dont have an exhaulted place in schools where by they have to do a daily service of worship re our ideas.

I had not realised you send your kids to a church school, perhaps you should choose another or indeed opt out as you are entitled to do.

Should I go on?

Perhaps you shouldn’t

Would it them be okay to say that you don’t think any fat people should wear leggings?

Leggings may not be the best way to flatter your figure – yes
Put it away fattie your corpulent hulk disgusts me – no

molgrips;
Does that involuntary knee jerking cause you pain?

Sorry, not following.

so who is doing the preaching?

I’m trying! Although it didn’t end well for that other guy who tried to get people to be nice to each other.

PS enjoying the actual bible debate on here – is that a Jewish viewpoint?

🙄

Well perhaps you shouldn’t go if you want to be left alone.

Eh I said we dont do them as i was accused of preaching [ a reasonable point to be fair] so that makes no sense as I have nto said or suggested I go to church

I didn’t realise you were on their mailing lists, perhaps you should ask to be removed if you want to be left alone

See above – it was also widely reported in the press they had done this and what the letters said

I had not realised you send your kids to a church school, perhaps you should choose another or indeed opt out as you are entitled to do.

Point 1 – All schools need to do this legally not just religious ones – I know imagine if aethist were doing this – aethist service every day in a religious school.
Point 2 – you have the right to go to the religioous school of your choice you do not have the right to not go to a religious scholl if you choose to- ie they send ou to the nearest school and if it is religious tough luck

TBH i am not really sure what the point of your post was as you seem to have stretched what I said to breaking point.

If you must do this could it be funnier?

They are rolling in the aisles here.

To be fair the world of comedy is not missing either of us

Leggings may not be the best way to flatter your figure – yes
Put it away fattie your corpulent hulk disgusts me – no

If the person saying the latter is someone with a history of insulting the obese, perhaps you should turn the other cheek and not engage with them?

The reforming if Israel happened after the 2nd world war, etc.

Well, I suppose prophesies may get fulfilled if enough people who believe them devote their lives to bringing them about. Jesus clearly believed he would be back pretty quickly:
“Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.” (Matthew 16:28)
And yet this hasn’t happened. Did he change his mind? Did he lie to his followers? Or was he THE WRONG GUY…

If the person saying the latter is someone with a history of insulting the obese, perhaps you should turn the other cheek and not engage with them?

Touche.

This game is fun:

“And a harvest of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.” James 3:18

There’s some interesting stuff on the genealogy issue and OT prophesies on this (admittedly obviously biased) website: http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/paul_carlson/nt_contradictions.html

Some good points Neil,

I agree that you can make something happen, but your example of a nation re-forming is unprecedented, this (as far as I’m aware) has never happened before in history; and if your saying that the Holocaust happened to achieve this, well thats pretty extreme measures to make a single bible verse ‘come true’. Think about it, Israel wasn’t at its strongest when it reformed, there was something very meaningful about this.

Regarding Matt 16:28, have a look what happens in the next few verses. many people believe this is the fulfillment (the transfiguration of Christ). Some say its Acts chapter 2 (Pentecost) where the power of God’s spirit is given to men. I’m undecided which, personally, but happy to accept either.