the subject is a lot more complicated than a lot of people realise

Really, its not.

Really, it is. If you see no worth in religion, doesn’t mean that no-one else does. As a non-religious person myself I unfortunately can’t make the reasoned pro-religious points that we apparently need to hear. However I am quite aware of the tendency of people to ridicule that which doesn’t make sense to them in absolute terms, having grown out of it myself that 15 years ago.

Religion is of great value to a lot of decent intelligent people. So who are we to say that it’s rubbish? What would you gain by persuading people to see the world the way you do? Would you take pleasure in seeing their faith and belief system crushed? How upset would they have to be before you were pleased with yourself?

The debate isn’t religion vs science, it’s “religious science” vs science. You can be a scientist and still be religious.

Religion is of great value to a lot of decent intelligent people. So who are we to say that it’s rubbish? What would you gain by persuading people to see the world the way you do?

Its the fact that its the nice, decent, polite religious people that give the platform for the out-right nutters / extremeists / fundamentalists to flourish. With out organised religion these people would be receiving therapy in a padded room, not running a fair proporion of world affairs!

Personal religion is fine, its when it gets “out there” and organised. Shame really.

SSP

Would you take pleasure in seeing their faith and belief system crushed?

No, not crushed. But those belief systems are the basis of dangerous amounts of power, money, and violence. They are not immune to criticism.

Marcus Brigstocke’s rantette says it all really.

From the response to my contribution earlier perhaps this thread should have been titled “Evolutionist bating” – snigger, LOL !

molgrips

Personally, I will be happy when we can all laugh at each others beliefs
without anyone getting blown up.

Organised religion has always been forced down the throats of the majority of the world’s population, backed by extortion and increasingly, the threat of violence if anyone is prepared to disagree.
“Kill those who do not believe in Islam” placards, Christian Voice telling me what I can and can’t go and see at the theatre.

You also say

Religion is of great value to a lot of decent intelligent people. So who are we to say that it’s rubbish?

We are. Rationalists. And we are free to do so, at the moment.

Religious fanatics run some of our schools, pollute our airwaves (have you HEARD Thought For The Day? :D) and tell people that human suffering is good, part of a higher plan. Oh, then they ask us for money.

And you are upset that we might offend them by telling them that their invisible friend is not real?

Priorities please.

Molegrips

I see no positive value in religion whatsoever.The fact that other people see value in religion is immaterial and of no concern to me.
If something makes sense then by definition it needs to make sense to everybody, if it doesnt either they need to provide proof or they will be considered delusional. Many scientists I am sure were considered thus until they were later proved correct.

Religion is of great value to a lot of decent intelligent people

If people find value or strength in believing in things that are basically unprovable fairy stories then that causes me no issue, it still doesnt make those stories true however.

What would you gain by persuading people to see the world the way you do

I dont know but its not the way I see things that matters I would only suggest that people see it the way it is.

Would you take pleasure in seeing their faith and belief system crushed? How upset would they have to be before you were pleased with yourself?

I would take pleasure in seeing all faith based systems crushed, if that could be done without hurting people then all the better. I would take no pleasure in hurting anyone.

At the crux of this is the argument that faith and belief is personal and harmless. This is not true it dicates economic and social policy everywhere and whilst the Pope continues to tell people in Sub Saharan Africa that the use of Condoms is wrong whilst millions die each year from Aids and scientific research is halted in the US through an irrational belief that stem cell research is wrong people need to speak out against religion.

Organised religion has always been forced down the throats of the majority of the world’s population, backed by extortion and increasingly, the threat of violence if anyone is prepared to disagree.

Much like western capitalism, you mean?

Christian Voice telling me what I can and can’t go and see at the theatre.

Christian Voice is one bloke with a photocopier and a mailing list, who somehow gets an awful lot of airtime.

Its the fact that its the nice, decent, polite religious people that give the platform for the out-right nutters / extremeists / fundamentalists to flourish. With out organised religion these people would be receiving therapy in a padded room, not running a fair proporion of world affairs!

Can’t let that one past. If you had said its the people who are just into their religion for certainties and don’t think through consequences I would have agreed with you. Unfortunately there are a similar number of people who believe science gives then the same certainities.
The scientists I know seem to agree that their belief in their understanding of whats going on peaked about the time they took their A-levels and has diminished as they learnt more.

Tyger

I think SSP and surfer, along with others, answered your question succinctly.

Mike: 1. Yes, just like western capitalism.
2. Christian Voice are dangerous because they legitimise the idea
that it is perfectly reasonable to be deeply offended, then protected by law if someone does not agree with your irrational beliefs.
It’s the religious equivalent of stabbing someone in the street because they “disrespected” you.

the Pope continues to tell people in Sub Saharan Africa that the use of Condoms is wrong whilst millions die each year from Aids

We might do better attacking particular aspects of a religion rather than the religion itself. Protestants are generally OK – those that don’t burn catholics anyway…though perhaps they think they’re helping reduce death from Aids?

Christian Voice is one bloke with a photocopier and a mailing list, who somehow gets an awful lot of airtime.

He should get a lot of therapy and an unlimited stay in an institution. Makng fun of people with mental health issues is not allowed in any other part of the media 🙂

SSP

So where can your hope be found? Where do you find your peace if disaster should strike? There’s a better life to be had but it requires faith and reading some of these replies, it’s seems that it’s sadly lacking – no offence meant, just an observation.

Where do you find your peace if disaster should strike?

Drink?

But those belief systems are the basis of dangerous amounts of power, money, and violence.

No, not at all. Those belief systems are used as a PRETEXT for violence etc. Not the same thing at all.

If something makes sense then by definition it needs to make sense to everybody

That is just plain wrong. It’s like saying that everyone has to like the same bands because they are good, or like the same films. Just wrong wrong wrong. We are all entitled to see the world as we wish. We are NOT entitled to show violence to those who disagree, aggressively try and force others to abandon their beliefs or otherwise behave in a prejudicial way.

If people find value or strength in believing in things that are basically unprovable fairy stories then that causes me no issue, it still doesnt make those stories true however.

Religion is a lot more than the fairy stories about creation etc.

have you HEARD Thought For The Day?

Yeah, it’s quite good usually. The best ones are the non-Christian ones – perhaps because they are in the minority in the UK and have to try harder, knowing their beliefs are not going to be accepted as easily by the majority of the listeners.

At the crux of this is the argument that faith and belief is personal and harmless.

It can be. The way you think inside your own head is different to the way you behave towards others. I don’t believe in God, but I respect others’ rights to do so. I most vehemently deny their right to for instance indoctrinate my kids or take political action based on their religious beliefs.

the Pope continues to tell people in Sub Saharan Africa that the use of Condoms is wrong whilst millions die each year from Aids and scientific research is halted in the US through an irrational belief that stem cell research is wrong people need to speak out against religion

I disagree heartily with both those things. However I know a lot of religious people that agree with me. Those things you mention are to do with the Catholic establishment and certain sects of conservative Christianity. They are by no means universal – remember that. Don’t be prejudiced against all religious people.

If people find value or strength in believing in things that are basically unprovable fairy stories then that causes me no issue, it still doesnt make those stories true however.

Some folk believe that truth is the only bottom line. Others however don’t. Is that ok with you? 🙂

Truth is entirely subjective anyway. Try and get your head round that, then come back to the issue.

So where can your hope be found? Where do you find your peace if disaster should strike? There’s a better life to be had but it requires faith and reading some of these replies, it’s seems that it’s sadly lacking – no offence meant, just an observation.

I find solace in my wife, friends and family, in riding my bike and fettling things. If disaster strikes I will use my knowlege and skills to overcome it, I do not relly on out side help to wish it away.

Is there a better life? I don’t think so, you have one and its up to you to make it what you want. Again, wishing that on the next go it all falls into place is not how to spend your limited time on this planet.

I have faith, but its in people. Normal everyday people who do the most amazing things for each other. I have seen this, I know it happens and I try to do it my self. No god needed.

Having said that the whole “if you don’t belive in X your life is lacking and somewhat dull” strikes me as rather rude and it makes the assumption that you are right. Which damages my faith in people…ahhh bu66er.

SSP

Don’t be prejudiced against all religious people.

Fair enough.

So where can your hope be found? Where do you find your peace if disaster should strike? There’s a better life to be had.

But could religious people practice the same principles please? This post implies that I am a nihilistic, apathetic, dead loss, who could ‘be better’ if I just believed.

I am certain where I am going, I am responsible for the things that happen in my life and how I deal with them. I don’t want a better life (whatever that means) I’m very happy where I am.

Tyger said

Where do you find your peace if disaster should strike?

Bikes, books (ironically, I like fiction, just like you do. Not the same kind though), family, friends, music, art etc. Cats are nice. And food.

Have you actually read any of the replies about satisfaction being gained by any other means other than believing in an imaginary bloke with a beard?
Do you believe that this is actually possible?
If not, then rational argument is not for you my striped friend. Try totalitarianism, you’ll feel right at home.

Molgrips
Thought for the day is like a Party Political Broadcast for the anti rationalist party.
Some of the humanistic sentiments expressed are fine and agreed with by all, I would hope.
But they do insist on bringing God into it.

what I always struggle to understand is why religious people think that the only way to do the right thing by the rest of humanity is to belive in god(s).

why can’t we just do the right thing because it’s the right thing to do not because we fear reprisals by some supreme being at some point in the future?

SSP – I think I agree wholeheartedly there. While I agree it is possible something “higher” may exist, and I could in no way disprove that, I also dont think it has any relation to my day to day life. I wont be forced to abide by someone elses ideas of what I should think and do – I go by what I consider to be right and wrong based on what I would like done to me etc. This is fairly similar to the teachings of several religions, but without the threat of an overlord that reigns death on those who stray or wont let them into a pretty heaven.

I have no problems with people thinking there may be a higher being, but people believing in a religion, an organised religion believing in a special certain person or people seems very weird. Especially when their answer to everything difficult is “well thats just what we believe”. My grandparents were fairly religious – as war heros and weekly churchgoers religion enriched their lives and gave them something to look forward to at the end. From me and my own two eyes – I just cant see it and I cant have faith in something I have not seen actively working. To claim everything around you, good and bad, is proof of god is a simple getout clause that cannot be disproved.

As mentioned earlier – science is progressive, as it moves it learns, as it learns it changes its outlook to adapt – it doesnt stick rigidly to unprovable facts unless public opinion changes and makes it less popular. Most of the things mentioned earlier about fantastic particles being based on made up theories and experiements made to prove their existence etc have missed the point – thats not the case. The relationships found to explain one item PREDICT another, so the scientists then search to see if its true. This is, IMO, different from coming up with a theory from nothing and then trying to devise an experiment to prove it.

why can’t we just do the right thing because it’s the right thing to do not because we fear reprisals by some supreme being at some point in the future?

I think this principle is enshrined in religion because if we just did what was right for the person, opinions may change with time and location. For example a serial killer may think he is doing something good for the person he kills, whereas religion would say killing isnt right in general. Though the same weird killer could well twist religion to mean the same thing.

So where can your hope be found? Where do you find your peace if disaster should strike? There’s a better life to be had but it requires faith and reading some of these replies, it’s seems that it’s sadly lacking – no offence meant, just an observation.

See thats the problem. I see no problem finding hope and peace in myself and those around me.Should disaster strike I’ll accept something bad has happened but theres a logical set of things I need to do to get out of that situation. What do I have to believe in an overlord to have hope etc? Make the most of the life you have now, if there turns out to be no better life for you you’ll have wasted yours worrying about some imaginary bloke that gives a damn about 6.6billion other people at the same time. I resent you suggestion that lack of faith somehow makes me a lesser person.

what I always struggle to understand is why religious people think that the only way to do the right thing by the rest of humanity is to belive in god(s).

Well some might but I don’t think that this is common opinion. The bible says the only way to heaven is through believing in Jesus, the resurrection and asking to be saved, but many Christians think good works are the key. The more bibilically led Christians say that good works are not the key though of course they expect Christians to do good things. Therefore they are entirely aware that non-Christians do good things!

Some folk believe that truth is the only bottom line. Others however don’t. Is that ok with you? [:)]

Truth is entirely subjective anyway. Try and get your head round that, then come back to the issue.

I suspect you are naive if you think government policy and consequently the distribution of scarce resources is not dictated by the religious beliefs of those in power. Your image of bicycling Vicars and cucumber sandwiches is off the mark and whilst its motherhood and apple pie for us all to have our beliefs accepted the liberal picture you paint does nobody any favours.
In reality 80% of Americans believe in Creationism and the fact that it should be taught alongside evolution theory in schools.
Moderate believers provide cover for this nonsense and as Harris points out it should be seen as an intellectual emergency.

Truth maybe subjective as a philosophical concept but you gain no brownie points in explaining this to those millions of Africans who die annually as a result of the Popes skewed interpretation of truth.

Having said that the whole “if you don’t belive in X your life is lacking and somewhat dull” strikes me as rather rude and it makes the assumption that you are right.

No ruder than thinking all religious people want brown people to have AIDS, have sex with choirboys, want to blow up Stuart Lee, believe in a six day creation and are against stem cell research…

But, I agree with your sentiment. Plus, some Christians are right bitchy, miserable, bastards 🙂

Mudshark

I’m sure he does – well thinks that they’re wrong – but he’s saying that a belief in God isn’t necessarily incompatable with evolution. He stated that he’s agnostic so has he said he’s atheist elsewhere?

TBH I don’t know. I just like to think that The Mighty Attenborough kicks off occasionally screaming and ranting about his displeasure concerning these idiotic skin tubes.

[All hail The Mighty Attenborough].

So, all sorted out then? 🙂

I’ll leave you for a bit with this. No idea what it means, but it always goes through my head on repeat whilst discussing religion.

Do you belive in high ideals,
Or In a white chalk horse upon a distant hill?
Do you place your trust in paramilitary skills
Or powder and pills?

I am not very convinced by the idea that a majority of ordinary, gentle believers are in the wrong because they somehow “provide cover” for insane extremists. The idea that moderates legitimise extremists, if applied to virtually any area of opinion leaves you with very little room to move.

Do vegetarians provide cover for Animal Liberation Front corpse-exhumers?
Do anti-immigration Conservatives legitimise Combat 18?
Do sufis legitimise wahhabist suicide bombers?

etc etc

🙂

Having said that the whole “if you don’t belive in X your life is lacking and somewhat dull” strikes me as rather rude and it makes the assumption that you are right.

No ruder than thinking all religious people want brown people to have AIDS, have sex with choirboys, want to blow up Stuart Lee, believe in a six day creation and are against stem cell research…

I don’t think that so don’t put words in to my mouth/post. As I have said before it’s the liberal, nice congregation that gives the powerbase for the objectionable nutters who carry out and propergate those crimes. Infact the nice liberal people who believe same texts / book / interpretation as the nutters they just choose to leave bits out which I find rather half-hearted and hypocritical. If you are going to cherry-pick there is a whole world of religions and philosphies out there to browse for ideas, why restric yourself.

Be nice because you are nice, not because a bloke in a funny hat says so or that you might get bu66ered for all eternity by the devil if you don’t.

I also never said my way was right or that I have the FSM on my side (so watch out!) Its my own belief, relient on nothing but me and probably not that great for other people as we are all different. The Dalai Lama said that with 60billion people on the planet we might need 60billion religions. One size does not fit all.

SSP

The Dalai Lama said that with 60billion people on the planet we might need 60billion religions. One size does not fit all.

i.e. believe what you like providing you’re nice to each other lol. Fair points!

To call it conjecture is to say it cant be proved

This is supposing that we’re not just experiencing a collective dream. Going back to Descartes “I think, therefore I am”, it’s incontrovertible that I exist to experience these sensations, and it’s plausible to posit the existence of an external reality shared with other similar beings, but beyond that one runs into conjecture

I don’t think that so don’t put words in to my mouth/post.

Sorry Alex, was comparing some views of religious people offered in this thread with the view you were commenting upon, not saying that they were your views.

How did I guess that this would be a century thread?

In reality 80% of Americans believe in Creationism and the fact that it should be taught alongside evolution theory in schools.

While I agree with the general direction of your argument, I’m not sure where you get your figures from- heres some from 2004:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/11/22/opinion/polls/main657083.shtml

This is supposing that we’re not just experiencing a collective dream

You mean, such as if our world were just a giant hologram?

SSP [/quote]I find solace in my wife, friends and family, in riding my bike and fettling things. If disaster strikes I will use my knowlege and skills to overcome it, I do not relly on out side help to wish it away.[/quote]

When my wife had cancer and despite my knowledge and the doctors knowledge, it was our faith and prayers that really made the difference.

Truth maybe subjective as a philosophical concept but you gain no brownie points in explaining this to those millions of Africans who die annually as a result of the Popes skewed interpretation of truth.

You’re getting a philosophical argument mixed up with a doctrinal one. It’s like saying bikers are lazy because downhillers use chair-lifts. The Pope is not religion, he’s not even Christianity. Not really a rational argument (haha).

Thought for the day is like a Party Political Broadcast for the anti rationalist party.

Yeah, I watch party political broadcasts too. For parties I don’t support! 😯 Go on, ask me why!

Your image of bicycling Vicars and cucumber sandwiches is off the mark and whilst its motherhood and apple pie for us all to have our beliefs accepted the liberal picture you paint does nobody any favours.

Eh? Wtf did I mention the bicycling vicar myth? I’m talking about the validity of holding beliefs. I have said several times that I’m against many things done in the name of religion. I think you are really not understanding what I am trying to say. I am making a philosophical point (not even a theological one). The discussion about the influence of politics in religion is another argument entirely. We can have that discussion if you like, I’m happy to join in – and I suspect I agree with you mostly.

I am not advocating religion or Christianity; as said before I am not religious. I am suggesting that most of the negative things done in the name of religion are not intrinsic to that religion (despite what the perpetrators would say) – rather to those folk that are without tolerance and compassion.

If I get ripped of by Irish pikeys resurfacing my drive, is it because they are Irish pikeys or because they are unscrupulous scumbags?

I do not relly on out side help to wish it away

That’s not really how it’s meant to work. You don’t ask God to do stuff for you, you ask God to help you do stuff yourself. A lot of Christians seem to have trouble with that too tho. Then again a lot of Christians believe a lot of weird stuff but hey, that’s the way the world is 🙂

That’s not really how it’s meant to work. You don’t ask God to do stuff for you, you ask God to help you do stuff yourself. A lot of Christians seem to have trouble with that too tho. Then again a lot of Christians believe a lot of weird stuff but hey, that’s the way the world is

I know some Christians who pray for a parking space when they go shopping. I know others who feel God probably has more important things to be doing.

bicycling Vicars

I do hope that we’d be impressed by seeing one of these rather than amused!

I do hope that we’d be impressed by seeing one of these rather than amused!

I know of some.

Stuck on my windscreen again the other week: