I wondered if there are any qualified guides on here who’ve done any of the equivalents of the new British Cycling qualification and are making any money out of it?

I did a Trail Cycle Leader award earlier this year – basically the same thing Chipps and Dave did for their piece. It was only ever meant to bring in a bit of secondary income. Get paid to ride, I thought.

I’ve been quite surprised by the lack of demand for guided riding. I put together a reasonable website, got a bit of interest in various blogs designed to draw folk to the site, put myself about on social media and built up a decent twitter following. Still, there doesn’t seem to be much demand. At the same time, I see companies offering these courses getting booked out week after week.

Are the instructors the only ones making any money out of the qualifications?

Is there anyone else out there who is making it pay?

Once you’ve factored in the cost of joining the training scheme, and joining British Cycling, and doing a first aid course, you don’t get much change out of four or five hundred quid to qualify. I’m beginning to wonder if the money would have been better set aside for the next bike!

Interested to hear others’ experiences…

Cheers,

BTM

Lots of organisations now demand that their employees are up-to-date with training so here’s a decent chance that many of the TCL training courses are booked up by folk who already have jobs.

That reminds me – I need to get a TCL.

Mate spent several thousand pounds on this malarky and I reckon its a mugs game. Only a very few riders get to maker a good living at it, and I bet if you ask them how long it took to get there, they will say years.
Ive done trail cycle leader, and while it affirmed a lot of the hard won knowledge I do have, it fails completely to take your abilities to wholly new levels (if you are even an average rider/bodger).
For that you have to shell out an arm and a leg, and spend years doing it – Im just glad someone else footed the bill for me, otherwise I just could not justify £500 on a ticket for what most of us could do already!!!

I would imagine it is because a guided ride alone is pretty expensive* for what it is when most of the time people/ clubs are reasonably happy for you to tag along on a few rides and learn some new trails for free…

There has to be some other draw to go with the guiding to make the time and pennies be worthwhile for all concerned I’d have thought

* I don’t know your rates, but generally speaking 😀

TBH, I wasn’t expecting it to.

Mmm. My thinking was, I wanted to do it right and while it didn’t teach much in terms of riding, the leadership, risk assessment and first aid aspects were useful. Also, if you’re planning to guide, and have the qualification, then membership of British Cycling also includes public liability insurance.

I wonder if mountain bikers are generally too self sufficient to bother with guides, unless they’re looking to ride somewhere super remote.

BTM

I did the SMBLA ones some years back. I did quite a bit of skills stuff but iirc did “guiding” 3 times.

The guiding mostly involved people who could hardly ride a bike.

I recall most of the people who were on the courses were already involved in outdoor education.

Dont get me wrong elements of it were great, and it enables me to provide a more structured approach when I work with kids. But it will never be financial life saver, which matters not a jot anyway, as the whole point was to be able to better deliver kids cycle training anyway.

I wonder if mountain bikers are generally too self sufficient to bother with guides, unless they’re looking to ride somewhere super remote.

Yes, that’s why trail centres have failed to take off so dramatically 😉 BUt actually I think there’s probably some sort of cultural resistance to being guided in the UK. I’ve done guided stuff abroad, but it would never occur to me to do it here. So, sort of yes, maybe…

I wonder if mountain bikers are generally too self sufficient to bother with guides

See my points above. Why pay to be “guided” when there are so many clubs and individuals offering for an informal tag along for free?

Could well be a factor…

I can understand guiding in the continent (alps,Spain,Bulgaria etc) where you need to make the most of the short and expensive time you have there.
But in the uk?
Really?

I think the people who actually make money from any of these outdoor courses are the guys running them!

I wouldn’t pay for a guide, there’s always someone willing to take you out on their local trails or offer some route advice.
I’m more than happy to do the same for others.

Liability was something touched on in the article. Has anyone really been taken to court over injuries sustained on an informal ride they were leading?

Iolo – I don’t think riding somewhere new in the UK is any different to riding somewhere new abroad. You’ll be familiar with the standard map layout on home turf so maps will be easier to read, but that doesn’t always translate to knowing where the best riding is, or how recent weather will have affected a particular trail, for example. There’s still a lot to be said for local knowledge (or so I thought!)

BTM

The only way I could see it working is in a super touristy part of the UK with something else there as as draw such as coaching and guiding or B&B and guiding and even then I’d imagine you would struggle to make it worthwhile outside a few peak months. On top of that the necessary added draws for customers (be it a B&B or coaching) would likely make it main business rather just something on the side.

Navigating your way through the best trails in somewhere vast like the Alps for example is very different to choosing which trails to bimble around in the quite compact UK. There just isn’t that same kind of wilderness if you want to call it that

I wonder if mountain bikers are generally too self sufficient to bother with guides, unless they’re looking to ride somewhere super remote.

Aye. Realistically mtbing on the whole has a similar risk factor to rambling rather than say alpine mountaineering, probably a few more broken shoulders, but a few less broken ankles. So whilst people are happy to fork out for a mountain guide to get them up the Matterhorn, they’re unlikely to pay for a guided ramble round the Yorkshire Dales. I’d guess that mtbing demand will be similar.

I did the SMBLA and guide in Spain. There have been a few local people see how well I’ve done and tried to set up their own thing but its really hard. Spanish people don’t want guiding in Spain, the same as UK people don’t want guiding in the UK. Only recently have I started getting more Spanish customers and that’s because i offer more than basic guiding, i.e. skills, van assistance, point to points etc. Also getting to be a bit “known” helps, people want to come along and see what it’s all about. Most of my trails are self found, cleared and often cut in so the Spanish guys have realized that a bit and see the value. It’s funny watching the different approaches to it in Spain and France. Local spanish bikers will call and ask if i want to ride and they will show me their local stuff too, which is cool. The French try and work out my routes from photos and vides and there’s several forum posts dedicated to working out my routes!
There seem to be some uk guiding companies which are ace and do well, go where for example. Again they offer more than a route. A guide has to offer more than a GPS track.

My experience with the SMBLA was that it was a lot of people being put through it as part of their job. Teachers, outdoor instructors etc. I loved it and though that on the whole it was a useful course. Obviously I would change a few things, like with any course I’ve done. Doing it with cycle wild in aviemore means you get some fantastic riding in as well.

Presuming you are already a mountain biker, there are numerous guidebooks with suggested routes if you struggle with a map alone, eg I have a Dark Peak one on the shelf that cost £15.

How much guiding time will £15 buy?

I don’t struggle with maps, but thanks. ;0)

I would imagine it is because a guided ride alone is pretty expensive for what it is when most of the time people/ clubs are reasonably happy for you to tag along on a few rides and learn some new trails for free…

This +1

Going to a new area for the weekend, google the local club, e-mail secretary (if there even is one) to check it’s not a race team in disguise or a really slow CTC style bimble on fire roads, and turn up.

Or on a weekday, buy the guidebook.

Whereas a trip to Spain for example:
a) I can’t speek spanish so local knowlage is hard to interpret
b) The Spannish have very defined XC and DH riders, and never shall they meet in the middle (much), so in a lot of places local knowlage for the more normal Easy DH/Technical XC holliday riding may not even exist.
c) following from point a, I have no phone, or any idea how to explain that my body is FUBAR and can they send the whirlybird to pick me up, having a bi-lingual local in the group is usefull.
d) it’s absorbed into the holliday cost, £50/day seems like a lot for an uplift, but £700 for a weeks holliday inc flights seems reasnoble (even if DIY without the guide it could be half that). There’s also a lot of other value added, uplift, accomodation, food, bike workshop, etc. All might be sub par for £100/day (bunkhouse and Inners uplift for £50-£60 would eb comparable to a lot of MTB hollidays), but it’s a package with guiding so seems more worthwile.
e) I get a lot of weekends, wasting one riding poor trails is no big deal, there’s another chance in 5 days time. I get 1 weeks biking Nirvana per year, it had better be awesome!

BTM, where are you based? If it’s the Lakes, Wales or Scotland then you might stand a better chance of getting custom by advertising in European bike mags (and learning the languages) as you’re attracting the equivelents of the Brits going to the Alps, Spain etc. If it’s anywhere else then it might be harder to attract punters (how many Brits would go to the equivelent of FOD, New Forest, etc for a biking holliday?).

the only way your going to make anykind of money in the UK is working with schools an youth groups but this usually means having a set of bikes, equipment and insurance. If you want to earn a bit of extra money contact your local outdoor education providers who might be willing to pay you as and when to guide groups around local trails. Don’t expect to be doing much mtbing most of these groups are basic level but I’ve had some great fun with groups teaching them the basics

I don’t struggle with maps, but thanks. ;0)

“You” wasn’t directed at you but any mountain biker.

Question(s).

What can you offer me as a guide for your day rate that I can’t get from a) asking on here for route advice, b) Going on strava, gpsies and downloading a .gpx file. c) buying a guidebook or map?

Foreign mags may be worth looking at, not a spoon. Good idea. Based in Wales…

Cheers,

BTM

I hold MBL.
The number of people in the UK that can make a (basic) living out of *one* outdoor sport, is very, very few.
There are a few more who *just* a living as well qualified, well experienced outdoor instructors.
There are more who get paid peanuts to take kids on glorified theme park holidays as ‘outdoor instructors’ for a season or two before they get bored and realise that the pay is not enough to sustain anything other than a single persons, live in and have a beer each week lifestyle.
.
Sorry, but an TCL or MBL with no experience and not other qualifications is not going to earn you a living. There is just not the market for it.
.
And to add in, most people would be shocked by the hours worked and lack of hols/days off/etc in the industry. I am actually struggling to come to terms with how much time I have now, doing a more ‘normal’ job. The outdoors is the best job in the world. And the worst.

For reference: I made a living out of it. But I have 10 years experience Summer and Winter ML, SPA, RYA SI, RYA Powerboat Instructor, RCD Ropes Course, GNAS, BOF Level 1, (Old)L3 Canoe with 5* and UKCC L2 Kayak with 4* and Moderate Water, WWSR, Coaching Processes, LCMLA (Derbyshire), DofE Gold Assessor, Facilitating Coaching, BASP First Aid and my Food Hygiene.. 😉
That lot cost in excess of £20k I reckon in fees, expenses and kit to achieve. And 3-8 years hard effort. And freelance daily rate would be £100. A good freelance *might* make £16-18k.

I wonder how the even the large companies advertising guiding do in the UK. A mate and I bit on the bullet and tried to book a guided point to point trip because we thought it would be logistically a lot easier even though it cost way more than we could have done it for. As we got nearer departure date we had heard nothing so we started nagging until they revealed they had no other takers and the trip was cancelled! So maybe all the adverts we see in mags come to nothing much and these companies make their money abroad.

Doug @ basque….My experience with the SMBLA was that it was a lot of people being put through it as part of their job. Teachers, outdoor instructors etc. I loved it and though that on the whole it was a useful course. Obviously I would change a few things, like with any course I’ve done. Doing it with cycle wild in aviemore means you get some fantastic riding in as well.

You are correct.
The scheme was introduced after the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyme_Bay_canoeing_tragedy incident which prompted LEAs to risk assess all outdoor activities.
In Scotland Jim Riach of Scottish Cycling(now Cycling Scotland), Glenmore Lodge and reps from outdoor Ed revered the emerging mtb scene and came up with the SMBLA scheme.
Myself and Rik @ Drumlanrig were the first 2 people to participate/trial the course due to us knowing one of the schemes authors. Rik has the distinction of having cert nbr 1. I should have nbr 2 but for other reasons I don’t!
The guys at Cyclewise who have developed the BC scheme had the same tutor, Greg Knowles 😆
I have also had the pleasure of doing my Bikeability cert with Jules from Cycle Wild that Doug mentions 🙂

Why did I participate? Being a parent volunteer I when my kids were at school I got asked to help out when kids were on outdoor activity programmes. In ’94 mtbing was pretty new on the outdoor curriculum !

I took the CTC route and have trail leader, technical trail leader and skills instructor as well as my local authority course too. Everyone on the trail leader course was someone already working in the outdoor sector who needed it for their job. The technical trail leader was a 50 / 50 split of those and people who were ‘actual’ MTB’ers who wanted it for various reasons. Whereas the Skills course was all experienced riders who wanted to coach others.

I did my TCL with 4 ML’s and one other “proper” MTBer.
It frightened me that the ML’s, one with winter ML, couldn’t find themselves on a map with a bloody great big electricity pylon above their head. 😯

Myself and Rik @ Drumlanrig were the first 2 people to participate/trial the course due to us knowing one of the schemes authors. Rik has the distinction of having cert nbr 1. I should have nbr 2 but for other reasons I don’t!

Were we on the same course? I have no.9…. At Castle Douglas area, with Greg from D&G centre…I don’t remember Rik being on it though…

A lot of the people I ride with are TCL but only because of youth groups or the such requiring it for insurance purposes these days.

None have been on guided rides unless they’ve been abroad.

matt_outandabout

Were we on the same course? I have no.9…. At Castle Douglas area, with Greg from D&G centre…I don’t remember Rik being on it though…

No. Only Rik, Greg, Jim Riach and myself. We were the “dummies” for trialing the course.
Based at Mabie we took Greg & Jim on a tour of places they had never been before 🙂 Greg was still quite “new” to mountain biking at the time and I believe D&G were one of the first outdoor ed depts to introduce it to primary schools. As a parent volunteer when my kids were at school I got invited along as a helper, hence getting to do the course.

the only way your going to make anykind of money in the UK is working with schools an youth groups but this usually means having a set of bikes, equipment and insurance

Just like BC’s go-ride then. Except it’s subsidised by sport England and the local authority.