I see counterfit goods in the same way I see stolen goods and that is simply illegal.

Eh? Illegal is illegal and that is the end of it. Well then it looks like I don’t have to work inside my complex moral code any more because we have a conservative government to make laws that I will blindly follow because they know best.

What utter rot!

When you buy a conterfeit product you have not stolen any material thing like a bike theif has, nobody has lost any money if you were never going to buy an original anyway. Why not claim the classifieds on here wrong as if I buy a second hand frame I’m denying the maker of a sale of a brand new one?

people seem to be frothing at the keyboards about it!

Yet you keep ignoring the people responding rationally with solid points, and you’re the only one who’s resorted to all caps and bold.

Go and buy whatever you want, no one actually cares. It’s the coming on here and actually trying to justify it as somehow morally ok that is annoying people.

Shibboleth – to really make people’s blood boil/keyboards all frothy I think you should buy one of each and Crit race ’em both… that way ending this dilemma and providing you with a great means of back-to-back testing which one is better. Not only that, but if you crash one – you’ve already got a spare! 😀

Post up pics when you get one… or both.

I’ve said this. Several times. There are lots of crashes in crit races. I don’t want to smash a £6.5k bike. Understand?

Yep, you want to enter Crit races on a bike that you expect others will think is a £6.5k bike, yep, understand you ok.

JonR
I would love to hear that argument in court, you would make my life, I can just imagine the court erupting in laughter at you and your nonsense.

Shibboleth – Member
The Ribble Stealth/R872 is an exact copy of a De Rosa. There seems to be a suggestion that the same company make the mike for De Rosa AND sell it unbranded, or branded Ribble, or whatever else you ask.

So which company makes it/them then?
A respected bike manufacturer (as I said) or a Chinese knock off supplier (as stated by yourself)?

I’ve mentioned this once or twice or 5 FRICKING TIMES ON THIS THREAD ALREADY, but for the benefit of the hard of thinking like yourself:

I ALREADY HAVE A BRAND NEW CERVELO R5 BOUGHT FROM AN AUTHORISED DEALER!!!
Yes dear, we know. I’m sure it’s lovely.

You can repeat that its a bad thing multiple times. Come on then genius – lets have it, why is it a bad thing?

Seriously? We need to have a debate about how cheap knock offs of branded goods are not a good thing? I really don’t have time for that right now, but I’ll leave with you a couple brief thoughts

1) Don’t know what you’re getting when you buy. Poisoned baby milk, anyone? Or how about some vodka that will make you go blind? Okay, how about a shoddily built bike frame that might explode when you go over a pothole? (Or might not, you just don’t know..)

2) Discourages innovation by designers and manufacturers. Spend millions on R&D, only for someone in China to clean up selling something that looks similar for a massively lower price because they haven’t incurred the R&D costs? Nah, let’s not bother, we’ll just change the colour on this year’s model.

3) Devalues the real brand when people don’t know what’s real and what’s fake. I was going to buy some Oakleys, but I had a look at my mate’s and the lenses are pretty ordinary looking. I’m not spending hundreds on that crap, I’ll get some cheapies from Decathlon. I don’t reckon those Cervelo bikes are worth the money, bloke from my neighbour’s club had one, the damn thing fell apart.

4) Encourages criminality. Yes it does. My knowledge of chinese frame builders and their involvement in people traffiking is zero, but I know they’re knocking out fake bike frames, which is criminal. I’d hazard a guess that the frame maker who decides to put fake decals on their frames is more likely to engage in other nefarious activities than his neighbour who is selling honest, unbranded frames.

EDIT: Sorry, my “brief thoughts” did start out brief, honest!

JonR
I would love to hear that argument in court, you would make my life, I can just imagine the court erupting in laughter at you and your nonsense.

From someone coming out with the blind subservience to the law of a concentration camp guard or hangman I would be happy to “make your life” if I remained an individual still capable of making my own decisions as to what is right and wrong.

So which company makes it/them then?

XPA Cycling of China. They’re a very well respected supplier of branded, unbranded, OEM and knock-off bikes. Different copyright and intellectual properties laws over there you see… 🙄

JonR – Member
When you buy a conterfeit product you have not stolen any material thing like a bike theif has, nobody has lost any money if you were never going to buy an original anyway. Why not claim the classifieds on here wrong as if I buy a second hand frame I’m denying the maker of a sale of a brand new one?

You’ve denied the maker of a similarly priced frame a sale, obviously.

Same as buying a pair of fakeleys denies the manufacturers of £15.00 sunnies a sale.

‘Concentration camp guard’?

Have one on me.

JonR
keep them coming you are making me smile 🙂
you believe counterfit goods are ok and legal.
maybe if you bought your girlfriend some fake make up and she ended up with a skin disease you could argue that you are making your own decisions. I hope you dont have young children and start buying your powdered milk from China.

we are all individuals but I guess the law is there as a reminder of what is right and wrong, but maybe you could start a campaing to get the law on countefrit goods changed, maybe get the EU to adopt Chinas policies as maybe China has the right idea on this.

You’ve denied the maker of a similarly priced frame a sale, obviously.

If the same manufacturer sells it naked or painted up, and someone bought the painted one, who are they depriving?

And are you saying its perfectly OK to make a mould identical to an R5 as long as they sell it naked?

😯

Are fake Cervelos made of poisonous baby milk??? Have I missed something? Will I get a skin disease?

@edlong

but I know they’re knocking out fake bike frames, which is criminal.

Except that in China, they don’t see slapping another brands name on their replica frame as wrong, different culture, so to imply they are a bunch of amoral crims for doing so and suggest that they would partake in other naughtiness is a non-sequitur.

They still want to continue to sell their frames, under their own name and to OEMs, so it’s in their interest to produce quality items to stay in business, it just so happens that their items are based on/replicas of another design.

I image there are things you wouldn’t bat an eyelid at doing, that in some countries would have you locked up, maybe they would also thing you’re into human trafficking and a drug lord too eh?

“Different copyright and intellectual properties laws over there you see”

but unfortunately for you, you don’t live there and need to comply with British law. 🙄

I like these face things 😆

So how does this ‘devaluing the brand’ work exactly then?

Punter who normally wouldn’t buy a Cervelo buys a Chervelo knock off because it’s cheap. Would the punter have bought a genuine Cervelo had the knock off not been available? No. So no sale lost to Cervelo.

That isn’t an example of a brand being (not) devalued though.

“Are fake Cervelos made of poisonous baby milk??? Have I missed something? Will I get a skin disease? “

keep up youre falling behind on what is becoming a fast moving thread 🙂

If I were to feed a baby on fake Cervelo S5, would its face turn into a baby robin??

“Different copyright and intellectual properties laws over there you see”

but unfortunately for you, you don’t live there and need to comply with British law

but that’s a different argument to the one about quality.

there seem to be two concurrent lines in this thread that are getting mixed up.

1> importing a fake frame is illegal in the UK – yes, we all agree it is illegal. whether you want to take that risk is up to the person in question and how you feel about that and it’s implications for the brand.

2> the fake frames are a pile’o’sh1t – no, we do not all agree on this and there seems to be lots of intertwining of the two arguments to support personal views on the other one.

1 does not cause 2 and vice versa.

often the ‘fake’ frames are the same frames or very similar to those that the same factory is selling to OEMs and in unbranded form so to implay they are poor quality because they are fake simply does not follow*

* it may be true that they are poor quality but there is lots of evidence to support the fact that they are actually decent, and it is not the ‘fakeness’ that determines the quality.

Aren’t most bikes made in China anyway? So the ‘cheap’ brands are made in exactly the same factories as the expensive ones? Could it be that bicycle ‘manufacturers’ are in fact simply ‘brands’ created by Chinese-owned or based manufacturers to sell goods to people in affluent countries for a lot more than they do to those in poorer countries? IE, we’re being riped off because we’re willing to pay a lot more for a particular ‘brand’? Exactly the same situation exists in the clothing industry, so I can’t see how the global cycle industry is any different.

Wish I could get a Chinese iPad:

http://www.cnbc.com/id/100648407

Isn’t ‘iPad’ a Chinse invention anyway? And that it is in fact nasty Western companies ripping them off, not the other way round?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18669394

the fake frames are a pile’o’sh1t – no, we do not all agree on this and there seems to be lots of intertwining of the two arguments to support personal views on the other one.

Isn’t that uncertainty itself a damn good reason not to buy the fake? The naked, unbranded frame, and / or the fake expensive frame could be badly made deathtraps. All you know for sure is that one of the merchants definitely is dishonest about what they’re peddling. Would you rather buy from the person you don’t know is honest, or the person you know for definite isn’t?

Aren’t most bikes made in China anyway?

Yes

So the ‘cheap’ brands are made in exactly the same factories as the expensive ones?

No

amedias youre reasoned arguments are too reasonable.

we were just getting on to feeding babies fake cervelos.

but i wouldnt touch a fake Pinarello having worked on them and seen the quality.
now it may be that i worked on an odd one and that they are all great but speaking to the importers they were seriously concerned at the number of frame failures that people were trying to claim warranty on only to be told that it’s a fake.
as people were claiming the “original” bikes were failing and that will damage the reputation of Pinarello.

XPA Cycling of China. They’re a very well respected supplier of branded, unbranded, OEM and knock-off bikes.

I couldn’t see anything about knock off bikes on their website. are you sure???

No

Do you have proof of this?

It’s just that Merida (Ok, Taiwanese rather than Chinese) make Specialized, and have also made Carrera frames sold in Halfords, which were almost identical. But a lot cheaper. Made in the same factory. I’d imagine the same practice is common in Chinese industries which supply globally.

the importers they were seriously concerned at the number of frame failures that people were trying to claim warranty on only to be told that it’s a fake.
as people were claiming the “original” bikes were failing and that will damage the reputation of Pinarello.

THAT’s an example of a brand being devalued. Thank you!

Isn’t that uncertainty itself a damn good reason not to buy the fake?

not necessarily, a little research on the actual source factory and the other models they produce could reveal that it’s actually a billy bargain.

All you know for sure is that one of the merchants definitely is dishonest about what they’re peddling

please, please stop with this, if the person selling/making the fake does not consider anything wrong with using another brands image and producing a replica, due to culture in which they operate, then they are not being dishonest.

the fakes are very very very rarely sold under the pretence of being genuine, they know full well it is not, and do not attempt to hide it, they are being no more dishonest than kit car manufacturers that produce ‘replica’ AC-s and Lambos.

If they were trying to pass them off as genuine then that’s a whole different kettle of fish, but I can count on less than one hand the times I have seen that behaviour.

speaking to the importers they were seriously concerned at the number of frame failures that people were trying to claim warranty on only to be told that it’s a fake.
as people were claiming the “original” bikes were failing and that will damage the reputation of Pinarello.

now that is a genuine worry, and I don’t like this any more than you, but that raises the question about the source of those dodgy frames.

Did the people buy them in the belief that they really really were pinarellos? in which case where from? because most of the Chinese places are pretty up front about the fact they are replicas.

Surely you’ve got to be pretty dim to expect warranty on something unless bought from the manufacturer or one of its authorised agents. Hell, you’ll even struggle to get a warranty on a lot of genuine stuff unless bought through their official channels.

Or was it a case of people being duped by a deal too good to be true and not checking? or even more sinister, trying it on with Pinarello? or even more sinister again, Pinarello exaggerating?

^ all speculation, just widening the viewpoints so to speak…

FWIW, I’ve seen some chinese sh1t, I’ve also seen some genunie top end sh1t, and some very well made cheap Chinese stuff.

A big concern for the brands is once these replicas are in the wild and in the 2nd hand market, they have no control over them, and the variable quality and finish can lead to changes in the perception of the brand by the masses, as it then becomes harder for them the differentiate between genuine and replica once they have moved downstream a bit.

Shibboleth – Member

So which company makes it/them then?

XPA Cycling of China. They’re a very well respected supplier of branded, unbranded, OEM and knock-off bikes. Different copyright and intellectual properties laws over there you see…

So, Pedalforce then. Like I said.
TBH, I think we might be talking at cross purposes here. 😀

It’s just that Merida (Ok, Taiwanese rather than Chinese) make Specialized, and have also made Carrera frames sold in Halfords, which were almost identical. But a lot cheaper. Made in the same factory. I’d imagine the same practice is common in Chinese industries which supply globally.

Sorry, I didn’t mean to say that there were no bike factories that made bikes for more than one brand. Apologies if my brevity implied that. The post I was responding to seemed to be implying that all the bikes were coming from the same factories. That would not be true.

That’s not a Chinese thing. Plenty of manufacturing in this country will have more than one brand being produced in the same factory, in lots of different industries.

Edlong – I don’t think we’re going to see eye to eye on this but each to their own and all that.

You’re right, people don’t know what they’re getting and that’s one of the great unknowns/risks about buying a carbon bike from China. If someone knows what a Cervelo is, they’re probably also going to know what they cost and therefore know a £400 Cervelo probably isn’t going to be a £400 Cervelo. Is a carbon frame painted up with Cervelo graphics any more dangerous than the same frame in black from the same manufacturer?

Are there more second hand Cervelos sold than new Chervelos? How many fake ones are there in circulation? From a second hand point of view, especially buying over the web I’d say this is a key risk with fakes. At least direct from China you know what you’re getting (as in its DEFINITELY fake). Either way if we’re talking about costs to Cervelo, surely the second hand market is just as damaging to them as a fake manufacturer.

A degree of common sense has to be applied when buying these sort of things. I’ve got a set of 20/24 hole hubs at home waiting for some rims and I’m mighty tempted to buy the ones from China that look just like the Reynolds 46’s I’ve got in the Storck. I probably won’t because I’m a bit of a unit and question whether they’d be strong enough for me. So I’ll probably take the safer option and buy some ‘branded’ ones.

I personally wouldn’t buy a fake – I’d cringe every time someone asked if it was fake or not or how much it cost but then I’m a bit shallow like that.

I’m not sure the OP ever stated that he planned to buy the Chervelo to fool people into thinking it was the actual thing, he just thought it looked nicer that the plain black version.

speaking to the importers they were seriously concerned at the number of frame failures that people were trying to claim warranty on only to be told that it’s a fake.

I find this soooo unbelievably unbelievable. NOBODY would by a £400 frame from China and then contact Pinarello for a warranty replacement!

from what I gather its a bit of all the above, but mostly people think that they can convince the importers that they are genuine.
I was completely of the opinion that one was genuine until we stripped it and looked inside the frame…
lo and behold a headset size that we can not get hold of, a fork that was unbelievable (like a child had made it in school)
and the lashed up bits of carbon and glue were just awful.
had a nice paint job though.
but then the bars snapped a week later.

‘Fakes’ aside,I think the truth is that we are paying a huge premium for certain branded items, when the manufacturers are selling identical products in other markets, for a lot less. So the ‘unbranded’ items could in fact be the exact same thing as the branded ones. No?

Somewhere, someone s laughing at us.

please, please stop with this, if the person selling/making the fake does not consider anything wrong with using another brands image and producing a replica, due to culture in which they operate, then they are not being dishonest.

the fakes are very very very rarely sold under the pretence of being genuine, they know full well it is not, and do not attempt to hide it, they are being no more dishonest than kit car manufacturers that produce ‘replica’ AC-s and Lambos.

Yes they are. If you put a Lamborghini or AC badge on a replica you would be breaking the law. Those frames have the exact same decals as the real thing. They are not branded as replicas. They are branded as the real thing.

And this “culture” thing is cobblers. It’s illegal in China too, but the courts don’t enforce it, at least internationally. If it’s a foreign multinational trying to sue a Chinese manufacturer, in China, the court will side with the Chinese business. The fact that they know they can get away with doing it doesn’t make them blind to what they are doing though. If you make a fake frame and put all the fake stickers on to make it look like the real thing, you don’t need a judgement in a court to tell you that you are being dishonest.

a fork that was unbelievable (like a child had made it in school)

seen some real cr@p on genuine stuff too, a lot of rough stuff hidden on the inside that you don’t see unless you go looking or after a failure.

I find this soooo unbelievably unbelievable. NOBODY would by a £400 frame from China and then contact Pinarello for a warranty replacement!

I thought so too.

Until I spoke to the importer.

I find this soooo unbelievably unbelievable. NOBODY would by a £400 frame from China and then contact Pinarello for a warranty replacement!

They might buy a “nearly new” ‘bargain’ that they thought was genuine from a third party in this country, and not realise they’ve been stiffed until that awkward warranty rejection conversation.

It happens with watches quite often – someone is really wowed by the expensive premium brand watch their wife / husband bought them, right up until they take it to a dealer for a service..

They might buy a “nearly new” ‘bargain’ that they thought was genuine from a third party in this country

now who was the dishonest party there, the company selling a replica? or the UK person trying to sell it as the real thing?

can of worms for sure as the 3rd party wouldn’t be able to do it without them making it in the first place, but it’s not as clear cut as you make out.

Yes they are. If you put a Lamborghini or AC badge on a replica you would be breaking the law. Those frames have the exact same decals as the real thing. They are not branded as replicas. They are branded as the real thing.

it’s only illegal if you try and sell it as the real thing. (FWIW they are sold without genuine badges/wheels but most people fit genuine lambo wheels and badges to complete the look) If you sell it as a lambo replica then its not being dishonest.

And this “culture” thing is cobblers. It’s illegal in China too, but the courts don’t enforce it, at least internationally. If it’s a foreign multinational trying to sue a Chinese manufacturer, in China, the court will side with the Chinese business. The fact that they know they can get away with doing it doesn’t make them blind to what they are doing though. If you make a fake frame and put all the fake stickers on to make it look like the real thing, you don’t need a judgement in a court to tell you that you are being dishonest.

They are being sold with replica stickers of another brand, they are not being sold as the genuine article (very rarely anyway, if you ask one of the sellers they will quite happily tell you it is a replica)

And in some cases it actually is identical to the OEM model, overstock, cosmetic seconds etc.

it’s almost as if the west has forced the Chinese (on paper) to agree to their views isn’t it… 😉