Out of interest, how many of you parents (who are posting) had parents who both worked?

Mine did although I was already at school when my mum went back.

Out of interest, how many of you parents (who are posting) had parents who both worked?

I think that my mother gave up work for a while, then when my younger sister and I went to nursery she went back to work part time until we were both at school full time. Both my parents were teachers though so that probably made things a little easier.

lodious – Member

TJ, I honestly think the ‘issues’ are most likely you superimposing your political beliefs onto the field of childcare.
Not at all. Teh issues are real with these kids.

If you haven’t raised children yourself, and your anictotale evidence is ‘unreliable’ why are you posting?

**** knows. I thught it might add to the debate but infact just gave people the opportunity to snipe at me on totaly spurious grounds. Lesson for me

TJ – all you contributed was a comment about how children who were cared for other than by their parents all turned out to be wrong ‘uns. Which you immediately said was irrelevant in the greater scheme of things due to the small number of children involved.

I can’t see how it helped move anything on?

My mum didn’t work until my younger brother went to secondary school.

On to other things…

I find all of this very interesting right now. I was a good earner (circa £50k) as I have my own business. At the same time my wife fell pregnant with twins the economic downturn kicked in and I now earn quite considerably less. Less than most of my employees at the moment, but I have to live with that and wait for the better times to return.

My wife was also a pretty good earner.

We didn’t initially want my wife to return to work but we simply couldn’t afford it – we managed a year and then she saw an ideal job – working part-time (2.5 days a week) and term time only in a local school but doing what she was doing in her last job (so helps to keep her CV current). So, when we take off childcare costs (they go to nursery one day a week, their gran & grandad one day and I have a half day with them), she brings home about 1/4 of what she was earning but it helps and she gets to spend lots of time with the girls and gets to enjoy being a mum.

With all of this, we have accepted we cannot afford to move out of our small-ish two bed end terrace into a larger family home, but the girls DO get to have the sort of upbringing we want them to have.

Conversely we have the most ambitious sister in law – she was determined for years to have a 4 bed detached and recently bought one. The husband (my wife’s brother) works abroad loads so often misses birthdays and is often away for a week at a time. She works full time so the kids go to nursery (two of them) and school (the other one) and she barely ever sees them.

But at some 15 years younger than me, they have a house I couldn’t afford – but with a huge mortgage that will see their youngest be around 40 (they took out a 35 year term) before they pay it off whereas I have a manageable mortgage that will be paid off in full before my girls go into higher education (although we would hope to pay it off before then).

I have no idea how our respective families will grow up (and don’t get me wrong, they ARE a lovely couple with a lovely family) but I would like to think we are emotionally giving more to help our children get a nice family upbringing.

junkyard – I was just wondering why being just over 4 meant that suddenly handing your kids over to someone else was ok, really? and fwiw there is a national curriculum for under 4’s that all pre-school child carers have to adhere to so they are educating children too – does that make it better

As i stated I would hand my child over earlier for things that I was unable to do – see Dr, dentist etc. However one would hope a parent could actually care for their children. Education, medicine etc may be too much to reasonably expect no matter how much of a polymath the parents are. Free nursery places start at 3 FWIW.
I agree with everything m-f says and chose as he did.

Education, medicine etc may be too much to reasonably expect no matter how much of a polymath the parents are.

You could cope with everything at primary school, surely? So, why farm the kid off to school then?

**** knows. I thught it might add to the debate but infact just gave people the opportunity to snipe at me on totaly spurious grounds. Lesson for me

You’re all a bit quick to jump down TJ’s throat these days, FFS take a look at yourselves, it’s quite unpleasant.

We’re in the fortunate position of not being able to choose 🙂 My wife wouldn’t earn more than the childcare costs for various reasons, but we’d like to think she’d stay at home if the situation was different anyway. Living in a 2 bed flat I think we’d struggle to wedge more than 2 kids in here. We are looking at options for a few years away, childcare work for her being a very attractive one at the moment!

I must admit I’m a bit surprised at some of the comments. I earn about £30k and don’t see any looming financial problems, we’ll just have to cut the cloth accordingly. It helps that my wife grew up in communist Poland, she understands austerity 😉

And yeah, picking on TJ a bit quickly I’d say.

Bloody hell, I only went away for a few hours and look what you lot have got up to …

<perches on the sofa at the back of the room>

Not sure if things have changed in the last couple of years, but if your childminder is Ofsted approved & registered, & your wife goes back on no more than 24hrs a week; you could get half that £1200 p/m back in the Childcare element of working tax credit.(Assuming you dont earn megabucks).
There’s a calculator online to check if your eligable. Its as frustrating as hell, but your pretty much working for nowt till they get a funded nusery place at 3yrs otherwise.

Don’t know shit about peoples lifestyles or views on bringing up their kids.
Do know that when my dad was on his last legs he said his one of his biggest regrets was not being about to watch me grow up.

Made damn sure that I was there when my daughter was young and my missus took redundancy and was there for her too
Might not have the newest car, biggest house or most massive telly, but we both wouldn’t have missed it for the world.

Its not all about money or possessions, you only get one go and think carefully otherwise you may also have a lot of regrets

Do know that when my dad was on his last legs he said his one of his biggest regrets was not being about to watch me grow up.

Agreed – last year we were at a friend’s daughters’ birthday and I got talking to his dad and he was telling me how he worked 6 days a week to provide for his kids but he had massive regrets that he barely saw them as they grew up.

The most precious thing you can give your children is your time.

I earn about £30k and don’t see any looming financial problems, we’ll just have to cut the cloth accordingly

It depends a lot on where you live.

Part of the problem with being the one with the earning potential is that you are the one that has to go out to work. I go out every day when I’d much rather be at home with my kid. It’s what I do for the family. Currently I am home every night.

Btw, people don’t always go out to work to buy a flashy new car or a tv. Sometimes they go out to work to give their family the freedom to have good experiences. And of course balance is crucial in this as in all things.

Re time – I could be working 40 hours a week in Asda just the same. Our family would be worse off all round I think.

I just think you should bring your kids up without using hired hands

Well I think that kids benefit from developing long term, regular relationships with other kids and adults who aren’t their direct family. The sort of thing they miss out on if they get cared for full time at home by parents and relatives. Given our oldest is just about to start school, it’s worth noting the relevance of the bit in bold – some of the info we’ve got mentions specifically issues kids have with relating to other adults when starting school.

well obviously if family look after the child they miss out on not being looked after by people they are not related to caring for them in exchage for money adults who aren’t their direct family. I just think that missing out on the care that could be provided by the family is more of a loss.
As far as I am aware the research on this is mixed with studies producing evidence that non parental care is bad, no different or positive. As my quote says I think it is better that the parents do this ..in effect I get to spend quality time with my children when they are young and that is the most important thing [to me if not to them]. Each person can make their own choice.

I’m fairly sure though there are people out there who claim they are doing all sorts of things ‘for their kids’ who are actually doing them for themselves. I struggle to understand the motivation of some people to have kids who then get rid of them as much as possible.

I think a lot of people get trapped into believing that their lifestyle outgoings are essentials. I don’t have any ‘evidence’ for this other than observations.

obviously all those parents who buy expensive mtb’s, drive VAG estates and go riding every weekend should take a long hard look at themselves. I mean those people who dissappear with their riding mates for a full day’s riding in the lakes or at trail centre’s or who spend time developing second careers such as photography should be interviewed by social services. 🙄

Each person can make their own choice and be slagged off on STW for it

We were making our own choices quite nicely there, then for some reason you waded in…

plenty of other folk chipped in first and I hardly started this. That said yes the chat forum of stw is where you keep your opinions to your self and it is not the place for discussion
Sorry
Ps thanks for wading in to put me right

obviously all those parents who buy expensive mtb’s, drive VAG estates and go riding every weekend should take a long hard look at themselves. I mean those people who dissappear with their riding mates for a full day’s riding in the lakes or at trail centre’s or who spend time developing second careers such as photography should be interviewed by social services.

Huh? I don’t have kids. Interesting to see you’ve been stalking me via the forum though. 😕

Nice use of reductio ad absurdum too.

Huh? I don’t have kids.

I assume the bike gets hung up in the garage/ sacrificed to the classifieds when you do?

Interesting to see you’ve been stalking me via the forum though

I would take comfort in the success of your viral marketing campaign.

I didn’t know you drive a VAG estate 😉

I assume the bike gets hung up in the garage/ sacrificed to the classifieds when you do?

Yes, because anything other than spending every waking minute with my children would make me a massive hypocrite, wouldn’t it.

would take comfort in the success of your viral marketing campaign.

Yay. 🙂

I didn’t know you drive a VAG estate

Actually it’s a Berlingo – must stalk harder.

Back on topic

There are plenty of parents around here who would haven’t an issue paying for the full 52 weeks.

the reality is that she will know she is good at what she does and probably gets recommended by other parents to their friends. Personnally if she is that good she deserves what she can charge. Why should she charge less? Would you?

I would also check what happens when she is ill, a good dose of the flu could be two weeks off. Falling off her mtb could be 6-8 weeks 😉

So junky, you’re dismissing the direct evidence because it doesn’t fit in with your view?

Not sure if things have changed in the last couple of years, but if your childminder is Ofsted approved & registered, & your wife goes back on no more than 24hrs a week; you could get half that £1200 p/m back in the Childcare element of working tax credit.(Assuming you dont earn megabucks).

Unfortunately the threshold is below what we earn, so it seems that Childcare Vouchers are the only ‘handout’ we’re entitled too. Both currently sorting that out with our employers.

Part of the problem with being the one with the earning potential is that you are the one that has to go out to work. I go out every day when I’d much rather be at home with my kid. It’s what I do for the family. Currently I am home every night.

Yep, that’s pretty much the case here. Although I work from home 80%+ of the time, so I get to play with little fella on and off throughout the day. And I do the last feed etc so get another couple of hours with him before carrying on with any necessary work.

We live in an expensive part of the country and don’t have any family nearby to support us. Naturally both impact our expendable income. Hence putting the effort in now is key to creating as much financial stability as possible. I don’t want to be working ‘all hours’ by the time he goes to school – I want to be able to support him in every activity he does etc.

obviously all those parents who buy expensive mtb’s, drive VAG estates and go riding every weekend should take a long hard look at themselves

2.5 our of 3 on that one 🙂 I do escape for a few hours most weekends but other than that we do just about everything else as a family.

So junky, you’re dismissing the direct evidence because it doesn’t fit in with your view?

Am I ?
The direct evidence is inconclusive so it wont “prove” either view [ your tautology was correct if not highly relevant thanks for dropping it and attacking me]
We are left with opinions which we can both freely hold
i would not accuse you of ignoring evidence just simply doing something different/prioritising ither things etc
it is amusing to be attacked for suggesting parents look after their kids
times really have changed

it is amusing to be attacked for suggesting parents look after their kids

Except that’s not where it ends is it?

You’re being attacked for appearing to attack other people’s parenting. This is an emotive issue and often upsets people who are trying to do their best for their family in circumstances about which you know little.

What’s required in this area is tact and sensitivity…. unless you actually want to piss people off in which case don’t. It’s not nice 🙂

Tact and sensitivity…. ? On’t interweb?

Its a novel concept but I doubt it’d catch on 😉

The direct evidence is inconclusive

The direct evidence of children having issues relating with adults other than their direct family when they start school? I don’t think there is any lack of conclusion that some children do have a problem with that.

Of course you haven’t really provided a very good answer to why you can’t home educate either, if it’s so important that kids don’t spend any time being looked after by people other than their parents. I mean it’s not at all like going to the doctor or dentist – plenty of perfectly ordinary people who aren’t teachers home educate. You can’t have it both ways – either it’s unreasonable to send your kids to school, or it’s not unreasonable to send your kids to nursery.

it is amusing to be attacked for suggesting parents look after their kids

Glad you enjoyed it, given I’m sure the targets of your comments found them very amusing. My job is done.

I am not attacking anyone else I am saying what I would do. Are people who use childcare attacking me – aracer certainly thinks he has evidence I am damaging my children for example? I did post it up in an inflammatory way [lacking tact and sensitivity certainly]as it seemed to be at a jovial point and I expected a reaction. However I don’t think i have accused them of being bad parents, nor have I suggested the children will have issues as a result of the choices made.[ I challenged TJ on this first post as well.

Despite the repeated instance that education is analogous to care I disagree. We could debate why , some more, but I doubt this will change anyones mind seeing as you are not convinced so far.

Glad you enjoyed it, given I’m sure the targets of your comments found them very amusing. My job is done.

You are taking yourself,your “job, me and the internet a little too seriously today but I am flattered by your attention.
One last time Suggesting childcare should be provided by the parents is not attacking parents who don’t do this…given how stupid some of you appear to be, as you cant see this distinction, you probably should leave it to other people 😉
Now that would be attacking people.

I am not attacking anyone else

It sounded like it… that’s kind of my point.

given how stupid some of you appear to be

Given how tactless and naive you seem to be, can I suggest to everyone else that we ignore him…

My wife stopped working when she first got pregnant [1979] and she’s yet to go back 🙂

Anyway, we took the decision that we didn’t want kids so that someone else could bring them up so that’s what she mainly did
We later fostered other kids [24] and adopted another one to add to our 3 natural kids.
TBH, I couldn’t imagine farming kids out for more than a day here and there, they’d miss so much

It sounded like it… that’s kind of my point

You wrong again …seems hard to believe 😉 The only person attacked here seems to have been me despite people saying basically what I said see above for example quick call them names tell them how bad it was for their kids etc

Given how tactless and naive you seem to be, can I suggest to everyone else that we ignore him

perhaps you could start be ignoring me then we could both be happy 8)
I think other folk can make up their own minds without your guidance …you would not like to look like you were sticking your oar in and telling people what to do now would you 😕

In these sort of situations when somebody is denying being tactless and denying attacking people, I find it always helps to check back what their first contribution actually was.

If you wish to have children it seems reasonable to suggest you could perhaps look after them yourself and work out how you will do this first.

In these sort of situations when somebody is denying being tactless and denying attacking people, I find it always helps to check back what their first contribution actually was.

If you wish to have children it seems reasonable to suggest you could perhaps look after them yourself and work out how you will do this first.

I don’t see how this is attacking people – seems like some people perhaps feel guilty about their life decisions and are very over-sensitive to any perceived criticism of their lifestyle. 😉

The only person attacked here seems to have been me

And why might that be? Because you pissed everyone off. You might want to wonder why that was, rather than just blaming us for being pissed off.

Junkyard – they had a go at me too. You must know that to question someone childcare arrangements is to elicit a very defensive response

And why might that be? Because you pissed everyone off.

Because it’s not possible to ever question anyone’s parenting choices in any way without people getting massively defensive about it.

When TJ defends you, you are really in the shit 😆
I am not sure molgrips is speaking for everyone when he claims I pissed everyone off plenty of other folk think and have acted as I have done/said on this thread. I think Grum has it people dont like to be questioned over their childcare choices. As i said in my second post

I dont want to argue I accept some people have no choice which is awful for them but I am sure we have all heard parents return after half term saying how relieved they are to get back to work etc that is more what I am getting at than child care per se.