Cheap Chinese carbon bars and titanium skewers. Any good?

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  • Cheap Chinese carbon bars and titanium skewers. Any good?
  • I also have qualifications, but I’m not using them to try and put down other posters, and I won’t rise to you paperwork one-uppery it’s arrogant and unpleasant.

    It’s also arrogant and unpleasant to mock posters for actually having some relevant experience. I only bring it up when I’m being patronised by someone who clearly doesn’t know what they are talking about. Your post above is full of holes, but I’m not going to get involved in yet another pointless internet argument.

    amedias
    Member

    I don’t see the point. You obviously think you know better and I can clearly see that nothing I say is going to make any difference

    I think you’re totally missing the point.

    We are open minded about it, and everything we can see, and have seen suggests that carbon and chinese carbon is OK.

    You seem convinced it isn’t, but have no real basis for that.

    I (and I’m sure Njee as well) would be the first to welcome some data and tests to actually show either way, but we want evidence and data, not hand waving and unfounded worrying.

    yet another pointless internet argument.

    They’re not pointless, arguments provide amusement, fire the brain, and sometimes even reveal points of view and ideas you hadn’t considered. Mostly this one is just providing amusement at the moment πŸ™‚

    Premier Icon njee20
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    Indeed, such data would be great, and actually it would be really interesting to know if it was genuinely inferior.

    I have indeed considered your opinion on this matter as worthless.

    I can see that and the feeling is entirely mutual, so there’s no point in discussing it any further.

    Premier Icon njee20
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    The ironic thing is that you keep talking about your “experience”, but you appear to have none that is wholly relevant to this situation. You’ve not ever seen the product, let alone tested, analysed or even used it in any capacity.

    Can you answer, simply, why they are unsafe? Not opinion, which is all you’ve proffered.

    You seem convinced it isn’t, but have no real basis for that.

    That’s not what I actually wrote if you bothered to read.

    You’ve not ever seen the product, let alone tested, analysed or even used it in any capacity.

    The problem with the bar the OP linked to is that literally nobody knows anything about it, not even which country it came from. But your common sense suggests that’s okay then. Why not give it go on your own bike?

    Premier Icon njee20
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    I would without worry actually, but I have a lighter and wider bar already, so no point.

    I’ve also said that I’d generally buy from a ‘branded’ seller rather than indiscriminate eBay sellers.

    Did you read my earlier comments about taking that risk purely out of curiosity….. I was totally prepared for them to break on the first ride

    I did actually and I was surprised. I guess I’m more risk averse than you when it comes to bars.

    Premier Icon njee20
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    Well obviously you are, as you’ve said you’d ‘consider’ using a DH rated bar for XC riding!

    if it was such a poor choice and a big risk all the pro teams would be falling back on overbuilt aluminium just for safety.

    I don’t think you understand racing then.

    As in motorsport, pros want to win and are prepared to take considerable risks to do so. Carbon is used extensively in F1 suspension, but unfortunately it sometimes breaks unexpectedly because it’s designed on the ragged edge with minimal safety margin. I’ve had to deal with some massive accidents in testing and the odd one in races, where a carbon wishbone or pushrod has snapped for no apparent reason despite all the procedures in place to supposedly prevent a failure. The easiest and safest solution would be to use heavier steel wishbones (and we have had to do that on occasion in the short term whenever a failure could not be understood). The drivers know the score and accept the risks and trust the team (mostly anyway).

    I’m sure it’s the same in pro DH mtb racing. Plus pros are not going to run their carbon bars for 5 years without inspection. I don’t know, but wouldn’t be surprised if the top DH teams replace their carbon bars after every race and if not I’m sure they get a very close inspection – even possibly a proof test if they are very professional.

    Well obviously you are, as you’ve said you’d ‘consider’ using a DH rated bar for XC riding!

    Why not? They only weigh a few grams more, I’m not racing and I haven’t had a single one fail in 20 years of riding. Is that not common sense?

    Premier Icon njee20
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    Well, taking it literally, that’s debatable. If it was “common” sense, ie most people did the same then surely there would be a proliferation of DH bars on XC bikes. There isn’t, most people are happy using bars for their intended purpose. Indeed I’m happy with my 117g carbon bars on my XC race bike, but I wouldn’t fit them to a DH bike myself. Indeed, if everyone did do as you said then wouldn’t bars become increasingly well built? If no one used lightweight bars because they all broke? We’ve seen a lot of components get heavier over the years, bars are not among them.

    I’ve just changed the (branded) carbon bars on my road bike because they’re a few years old, have had a few knocks, and I was losing a bit of faith in them, I don’t really want that doubt creeping in.

    You’re putting all your faith in the manufacturer. You deem a bar adequate if Easton tell you that it’s rated for riding more extreme than you will ever do. You’re not employing any common sense whatsoever. Common sense says that they sell tends of thousands of units, with minute failure rates, therefore the risk of failure if you comply with their defined envelope of us is extremely low.

    You’ve then got these labels, which you put all your faith in. If Easton suddenly added a “DH” moniker to their EC90 bars would you then deem them adequate for your riding?

    It’s ironic you’re questioning my common sense, when you appear to be putting blind faith in marketing!

    To use your own logic the only bars I’ve had fail (and that’s an extreme way of putting it) were a pretty heavy pair of Maxm carbon bars, so lighter are safer in my experience of 20 or so pairs of handlebars.

    I’ve got some lightweight carbon road bars on my Madone, which are now 10 years old, just ordered some replacements as they’ve been bothering me for about 2 years and I’ve just not got around to it!

    From the other thread, I see you mind taking a few risks but why let it bother you for 2 years? But you just keep applying your common sense and hopefully you won’t have to contribute to the next failed bars thread from personal experience.

    because they’re a few years old,

    10 you said. Maybe you don’t ride it much, maybe you weigh 50 kg?

    Premier Icon njee20
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    Maybe you don’t ride it much, maybe you weigh 50 kg?

    It’s/they’ve done about 40,000 miles at a guess. I weigh 67kg.

    You’re putting all your faith in the manufacturer. You deem a bar adequate if Easton tell you that it’s rated for riding more extreme than you will ever do. You’re not employing any common sense whatsoever. Common sense says that they sell tends of thousands of units, with minute failure rates, therefore the risk of failure if you comply with their defined envelope of us is extremely low.

    You’ve then got these labels, which you put all your faith in. If Easton suddenly added a “DH” moniker to their EC90 bars would you then deem them adequate for your riding?

    It’s ironic you’re questioning my common sense, when you appear to be putting blind faith in marketing!

    You’re making some massive presumptions about me up there. I’m not doing any of those things.

    It’s/they’ve done about 40,000 miles at a guess. I weigh 67kg.

    tick tock tick tock tick tock bang! Common sense my arse.

    and I was losing a bit of faith in them, I don’t really want that doubt creeping in.

    But you let the doubt creep in for 2 years, knowing that you had a few knocks. You clearly don’t know what you are doing and just relying on pot luck. It might run out one day for you and you’re just stacking up the odds out of ignorance. And yet you have the cheek to question my own common sense.

    amedias
    Member

    I don’t think you understand racing then.

    I undertand all about the risks and incrimental gains, but in DH and XC racing there are still some areas where reliability is key, and carrying a little extra weight is the compromise, my point is that if carbon was inherently unsafe, and prone enough to failure then we wouldn’t use it, at least not as widespread as we do.

    because it’s designed on the ragged edge with minimal safety margin

    perhaps that’s the difference, you’re speaking form experience of stuff like that, which really isn’t the case in mass produced handlebars, they have a fairly substantial safety margin built in by default.

    In DH more than anything it is down to a single run, a component failure means instant loss of placing. we go to great lengths not just to save weight but also for reliability, look at tyre systems for proof of that. the ~100g penalty on a Alu bar vs Carbon would be one worth taking *if* crabon bars were that unsafe and unreliable.

    You obviously are more risk averse, especially with bars, but my point is that perhaps that risk assessment is based bad assumptions.

    For a long while I was risk averse on bottom brackets after snapping a spindle and getting a nasty cut up the inside of my calf from the jaggedy spindle remnants, but most people thought I was being un-necessarily cautious as they’d never broken a BB, in hindsight it was a freak occurrence and I’m over it.

    Well obviously you are, as you’ve said you’d ‘consider’ using a DH rated bar for XC riding!
    Why not? They only weigh a few grams more, I’m not racing and I haven’t had a single one fail in 20 years of riding. Is that not common sense?

    You seem to be equating your choice of DH bars as the reason for your lack of failures. Correlation does not imply causation. Your lack of failures could be because you’re lucky, it could also be that you’ve never generated the right/wrong load to cause a failure. And without knowledge of that you can’t attribute it to your bar choice.

    I bet I can find a dozen examples of people using the same pair of 10-20 year old XC bars who have never had a failure, but it would be just as anecdotal and co-incindetal.

    if you’d said that you used to use XC bars but kept getting failures until you swapped to DH bars, then that would at least have more relevance.

    amedias
    Member

    It’s/they’ve done about 40,000 miles at a guess. I weigh 67kg.
    tick tock tick tock tick tock bang! Common sense my arse.

    So when faced with an example (we’ve actually provided a fair few in this thread), of your fears of failure not being founded, your only argument is ‘give it time’ or ‘you got lucky’ ?

    one example = anecdote
    lots of examples = data

    so far there are lots of examples of things being fine.
    there are very few examples of instant-explodo-bar syndrome.

    maybe, just **maybe** you’re worrying over nothing.

    But you let the doubt creep in for 2 years, knowing that you had a few knocks. You clearly don’t know what you are doing and just relying on pot luck.

    Or he’s making decisions based on his own experience of how infrequently his bars fail in similar circumstances and his knowledge of the use they’ve had, and he’s just less scared than you are.

    Do you worry this much over other components?

    my point is that if carbon was inherently unsafe

    I don’t remember saying carbon was inherently unsafe anywhere. Perhaps you can recall where I said that?

    maybe, just **maybe** you’re worrying over nothing.

    But it wasn’t me who was worrying that their 10 year old lightweight bars might let go. He said it himself, they were bothering him for 2 years.

    I don’t worry for one second about my own bars.

    maybe, just **maybe** you’re worrying over nothing.

    As I said, I’m not the one worrying.

    Premier Icon Northwind
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    moshimonster – Member

    I don’t remember saying carbon was inherently unsafe anywhere. Perhaps you can recall where I said that?

    You’ve kind of implied it, by refusing to use it, no?

    amedias
    Member

    I don’t remember saying carbon was inherently unsafe anywhere. Perhaps you can recall where I said that?

    I just don’t think it’s the safest option for a mass produced bar for your average weekend warrior.

    I don’t trust carbon bars from any manufacturer

    FWIW I won’t run ANY carbon bar on my own bike, branded or otherwise. I have a lot of experience of using carbon in motorsport and seen too many unexplained failures to trust it in certain applications – and small diameter bars with large bending moments isn’t an application I would be happy to trust with carbon.

    I’m not convinced mtb mass manufactured parts are going to be consistent enough. There are enough broken branded parts around as evidence of this and the lighter you go, the risk increases exponentially

    Perhaps I mis-understood those remarks, you clearly don’t consider it safe enough for your use.

    But maybe my extrapolation to you not considering it safe in general wasn’t fair.

    You’ve kind of implied it, by refusing to use it, no?

    I actually said it’s because in this case (bars) I prefer to use the obvious alternative material i.e. alloy.
    That’s not the same as stating that carbon is unsafe. I’m just not convinced that the bike industry is on the whole professional enough to manufacture consistently reliable carbon bars and especially not for Β£14 retail. I also don’t see a massive inherent advantage in having carbon bars. Carbon frame yes I can see a real advantage, but bars no – just more risk.

    There are enough broken carbon bars from the big name brands to put me off. Some people on this thread are even implying that branded carbon bars are even more likely to break than totally random non-branded ones. When I buy a bar I always take the trouble to hunt for failure stories, which is easy with branded bars. Some people have suggested that there are few or no reported cases of failure of cheap unknown Chinese bars, but which cheap unknown bars are those? All of them?

    But maybe my extrapolation to you not considering it safe in general wasn’t fair.

    There are safer alternatives as I said above. That does not imply that carbon is inherently unsafe. That would be completely ridiculous coming from my own background where carbon is routinely used for almost everything!

    amedias
    Member

    You just don’t think its safe enough for you to use, because you don’t trust the industry to manufacture it well enough. Fair enough, just out of interest, do you ever see that changing, what would it take to persuade you otherwise?

    Premier Icon nemesis
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    Are we all friends again now? πŸ™‚

    amedias
    Member

    Were we ever not?

    I love all my fellow SingleTwatters, even the ones I disagree with πŸ™‚

    You just don’t think its safe enough for you to use, because you don’t trust the industry to manufacture it well enough. Fair enough, just out of interest, do you ever see that changing, what would it take to persuade you otherwise?

    When I stop seeing loads of user reviews of broken carbon bars. Every time I’ve considered the idea (yes I am open-minded), the user reviews have shown a lot more failures than the equivalent alloy version. Maybe you can demonstrate otherwise – genuinely interested.

    Premier Icon nemesis
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    Do you think that maybe carbon is not as suitable for home (read ‘ham fisted’) fitting as alu bars and that’s likely the issue with most broken carbon bars? I certainly do which is why I’m happy enough using them. As an engineer with presumably excellent mechanical sympathy I’d expect the same for you πŸ˜‰

    (FWIW, I’ve seen far more broken/bent Al/Ti bars than carbon)

    Premier Icon njee20
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    I’m not convinced I’m on moshimonster’s christmas card list!

    But you let the doubt creep in for 2 years, knowing that you had a few knocks. You clearly don’t know what you are doing and just relying on pot luck. It might run out one day for you and you’re just stacking up the odds out of ignorance. And yet you have the cheek to question my own common sense.

    As amedias said it’s not pot luck. I know the exact history of these bars from the moment they reached my hands, there is no ignorance in play. The only reference I can find to a failure online was someone over tightening their stem and cracking them. I wouldn’t buy second hand handlebars, but plenty of people do. It’s about calculated risk. I’m not sitting at home head in hands because I’m paranoid my handlebars are going to break! That they’re carbon is also irrelevant, I’d be replacing aluminium bars of the same age/use quite honestly.

    There are safer alternatives as I said above.

    Have you got that evidence yet?

    nemesis – I agree, but just don’t see the point in running them. I also weigh 88 kg and find many carbon bars scarily flexible even in the shop. I’m not saying that means they will break, but it’s not a feeling I like.

    amedias
    Member

    (FWIW, I’ve seen far more broken/bent Al/Ti bars than carbon)

    Same here, both via online reports and through workshops.
    But then, as alluded to earlier, the percentage of carbon bars out there is smaller (for now).

    But I’d still say the failure rate is no higher than any other material form what I’ve seen.

    There’s also a tendency for people to report it more when a carbon bar fails, partly because they are often more expensive so people are grumpier when there is a failure, and partly due to the ‘OMG carbonz sux, it snaps’ brigade.

    Premier Icon njee20
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    FWIW, I’ve seen far more broken/bent Al/Ti bars than carbon

    Yep, likewise.

    I’m not convinced I’m on moshimonster’s christmas card list!

    He’s back! But seriously I’m out of this thread now for good. As I said, and didn’t follow my own advice, it’s pointless arguing with idiots on the internet (me included because I should know better).

    Enjoy having the last word as I’m sure you will insist, but I won’t be reading it.

    bland
    Member

    He’s back! But seriously I’m out of this thread now for good. As I said, and didn’t follow my own advice, it’s pointless arguing with idiots on the internet (me included because I should know better).

    Enjoy having the last word as I’m sure you will insist, but I won’t be reading it.

    Jees, good job, biscuits had just ran out!

    Premier Icon nemesis
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    Oh, I guess the truce is over again… πŸ™

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